But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I'm not able as an adult to look forward to things, to get excited about holidays or special outings. When I was a child, I learnt that it just lead to bitter disappointment. The outing that I'd so been looking forward to, that I thought sounded like it was going to be really fun, would be ruined by F's black mood, either during or even before we'd left the house. He had no realisation of the impact that his mood was having on me, or didn't care because it was worth if it meant he'd ruined my DM's day. And now if outings with my family go wrong, I'm utterly devastated, I feel like I've caused my children that pain - even if it was something out of my control, I feel like I should have done a better job of preventing it. I think I'm more anxious on holiday than I am at home.

Thank you for the poems, they're beautiful.

chloechloe I'm dreading my F making some kind of contact with me or DCs over December. Also got DD1's birthday. I'm sure he won't send presents (as 'final straw' incident was over the lack of gratitude we showed, so I told him not to send them anything in future) but might send cards. I suppose its not that big of a deal, but I'm still dreading seeing his handwriting and deciding if I open it or not, read it or not. Hoping he sticks with the agreed NC and includes DCs as will be much easier. Easier for me anyway. Even if I do have to have a conversation with them about why.

@FreshStart01 I can relate to that. Also, if I suggested a restaurant or film to see (for example) to go to with friends and maybe some of the food or the whole experience isn't 100% amazing I felt that it was my fault and they would think I was wrong/stupid/useless for suggesting it.

I've only recently started to realise that they actually didn't care. They had a good night out in great company and ok a lamb chop may have been a little undercooked but it certainly wasn't a bad reflection on me.

I on the other hand if we went somewhere suggested by someone else and it wasn't all 100% perfect I'd do everything I could to pretend that I'd had the best time ever. Even if others were quite happy to say well that was good fun but let's not go there again.

I didn't realise that you could have a neutral or even negative opinion on a thing but that didn't mean it was a neutral/negative opinion on a person.

Hope I've explained that.

Bizarrely @FreshStart01 whilst I dreaded getting post and parcels I took a cold delight in not opening them. I put them away, came on here to say how I felt and @SingingLily told me she called them ‘growlers’ because they sort of sit there and growl at you, and @AttilaTheMeerkat very kindly advised me to just bin them, said if I needed permission then I had hers. It’s part of the realising that you don’t have to do what they want anymore, because you have power as well.

Reading about the spoiling of trips and days out gave me a horrible memory rush earlier. I was going a school trip to London and I was really excited, and I must have been rude or something I suppose, and my dad just walloped me round the head and my mum shouted at me. I remember setting off to meet my friend to get the bus in tears. The awful thing was I must have been about twelve or thirteen, I just remember feeling humiliated and as if I’d ruined it for myself.
I just can’t imagine why anyone would do that, under any circumstances.

I wonder if they ruined things like friendships and days out because they didn't do it themselves so were jealous.

My parents had no friends and never went out - even with each other.

I was shocked when I went to university and found that people's parents did things like play in a darts team, play golf/football/tennis, go to the pub, have girls nights out, go on holiday with other families, meet up for lunch/coffee. I literally had no idea that adults had friends and did social stuff and weren't 'just parents'.

Yellowlemon Yes, I certainly wouldn't complain about anything myself and instead would try to 'fix' things or just pretend everything was great to try to smooth things over, even if just to try to make it better for my DM and not make her feel bad.

It’s hard to know what to say to the DC isn’t it freshstart? I’m lucky in that my mother is far away so if they do ask (rarely) then I just say she lives too far away to come and visit.

@Herocomplex - btw I'm reading some of your old posts and they're making me laugh a bit. The story about the bouillabaisse recipe is exactly the same kind of the thing my mother would do.

She'd tell shop assistants or the milkman long and uninteresting stories about the most trivial things (like putting a train ticket in a barrier the wrong way round and having someone come and help her - she could make something like that last 20 minutes).

It's so hard isn't it. Looking back and just seeing how you were so small and young and vulnerable. You just needed to be accepted for who you were. A hug and a bit of love. Not screamed at for a minor mistake. Not be allowed to have your own life or opinions. I remember starting my period and my mother gave me huge brick type sanitary pads and other girls mums had nice little purses with theirs in. Most months I was bought none and had to pretend I needed extra lunch money. Then she shouted to be careful not to let my brothers see blood. Just that vulgar heartless type of thing.

I know @yellowlemon some people just think she’s eccentric. I just cringe. She’s not elderly even yet.

@Chilledout11 Me getting my periods was devastating. She really used that. I got the huge bricks too and each month was different. One month I'd have to beg her for sanpro (because obviously I wasn't allowed to keep them in my bedroom). The next month it was all sorts of intrusive fussing and questions 'how are feeling down there?' in front of people. Or if I got blood on the bedsheets - it happens - 'you're dirty', 'you need to take more care of yourself'.

I felt so, so naughty for getting my periods. I wasn't a little girl anymore.

I am sorry that this all happened to you too.

Chilledout That's awful. When you really needed a M who could empathise with how mortifying everything feels at that age. My own DM's probably narc M (cold and no empathy, but not outright cruel as a rule) apparently did the same with making her buy her own sanitary towels and not telling her what to expect. Have two DDs at that age, oldest has started and she's been so stressed about it even with me trying to be as sympathetic as possible. I don't really remember it which is a GOOD thing.

It's years of built up pain isn't it. I had a friend over once and she sat on the rug in front of the tv and mum went mad after she left 'who does she think she is? What a cheek?' Another time I had friends over for my birthday (I was very shy) and she went mad again embarrassing her and she told everyone I had no friends and I made a fool of her. I have children now and I would love to see them bring friends over and be comfortable.
A family member died young recently and she didn't attend their funeral (nephew) due to fallout in that family yet she looks after the neighbours who all only see this amazing side to her.

Sorry I'm posting loads and not giving much back. But this is really helping even if nobody reads it except me! I should probably just get a journal.

That's the true beauty of these Stately threads, it's virtually like therapy, and I find it really helpful personally to just read. You're also assured nobody will flame or take the pee for anything that's posted here. Giving back is entirely up to the person and there's no implication on anyone to do so. I wish you the very best

@chilledout11 my mum was the same with friends. I remember her once hanging out of the window and shouting at my friends as we had fallen out. She was so embarrassing I begged her not to do it. I very rarely had people over for tea as it used to stress her out. She hated the thought of anyone messing up her show home.

I've been poorly the past week and feeling tired, overwhelmed and worried. Surprise that my mum has 0% empathy. Went round last night with DS I guess as I had FOG. It was my dad who eventually asked how I was. I replied not good. My mum said nothing! Like I had not said it. Another thing she done was my DS wanted to go upstairs and have a nose around. She knew his presents were up there and the door was open. He luckily walked in another room but I had to quickly shut the door. Knowing how she is, she wanted him to find them. Which 1. Would have been hard to explain why Santa didn't have them and 2. I know she would have wanted to have been like Nanny got you all this, I'm the best. Like buying his love. Does that make sense? Sorry bit rambly.

Sorry bit rambly.

No, not rambly at all. I can practically see it unfolding and I can feel the waves of anxiety you felt. Oh yes, she's in competition with you to be "the best, the most loved".

Sorry I'm posting loads and not giving much back. But this is really helping even if nobody reads it except me! I should probably just get a journal.

Write as much as you want and please, never apologise. We all do it.

Writing on here helps when we just need to pour it all out. Reading helps too, as Steve says, because we all understand what you are going through. We've all been there too in our different ways. I wouldn't wish my experiences on anyone but there is a comfort to be had in knowing I'm not alone.

The irony is, our parents believe themselves to be special and unique (my mother is perfect, she says so) when the depressing truth is, they're all the same.

Jinglebells She's a nightmare, try to keep away as much as you can. I'm sorry you're not feeling well. Its a stressy time of year. I don't enjoy Christmas, I have to make myself prepare for it and prefer to leave it all until December but I can feel anxiety rising. Christmas Day was in my childhood THE worst day of the year, like a Sunday in terms of boredom, with a forced family meal, me opening presents and trying to be cheerful over the disappointed misery of my parents and the oblivion of my DB. At least on a Sunday I could escape to my bedroom to do homework.

Thank you. You're all so kind. It's because of meeting so many kind people as an adult that has helped me on this massive healing process.

I remember my sister writing a massive rant on Facebook once about how she wasn't going to teach her children to be kind as it got people nowhere. And I thought at the time isn't that the one thing you should be teaching them?

And yes, turns out my mother isn't so special after all.

@FreshStart01I feel your pain. My birthday is a couple of weeks before Christmas so December was a double delight.

I used to dread going back to school and all the other kids had amazing days with TV, nice food, presents, all that love and warmth. And mine was just like a Sunday too except I couldn't escape.

When I was an adult I never understood kids who had believed in Santa Claus. But that's because my mother never bothered with that. Presents and stocking were always from 'your father and me'. So no need to pretend there was a Santa Claus. Same with the tooth fairy.

Fancy being so insecure that you actually feel the need to compete with a fairy tale!!

The whole scapegoat / golden child confounds me. I feel like in a parallel universe where my DB is normal/no learning disability, as the boy he would be the golden child, and I as the more sensitive one who won't accept my F's way would be scapegoat. However in this reality, DB had to be scapegoat, the reason (according to my F) for all the problems, so that has made me golden child. Except I'm not, because I'm still a disappointment to him, not willing to fit into the mould that he so desperately tried to force on me. So in that sense in the end I've become scapegoat (or escaped goat!), and perhaps DB is golden child in that he can only ever be an innocent bystander not able to do wrong. Anyone understand the theory better than me and can help me understand where I fit?!

Yes I did get presents. But apart from a really shitty cheap manicure set that she gave me because she thought it might help be more ladylike, I can't remember a single thing she ever gave me. And not one has been worth keeping.

@FreshStart01 I've heard the roles can change. So it's more that at one point in time you might be the golden child. I'm sure people who've been experiencing this longer can give more info.

And golden children are just as damaged. My sister is incredibly damaged and she is already starting to damage her children. I once I had thoughts that I could rescue them but in reality there's nothing I can do.

And when I realised that I forgave my aunts and uncles for seeming standing by and doing nothing.

@singinglily yes I used to think she was being generous as she knows I don't have much money. Now I think she does it to make me look bad and make her look amazing to my DS.

@freshstart01 I'm not too anxious about Christmas atm as I do love it as DS is little and it's still magical. Growing up Christmas weren't bad but I remember one Christmas that was awful where my dad was violent to my mum. I remember the next day him just crying on the floor it was awful. My mum had pushed his buttons and said the most spiteful thing she could think of. No excuse for what he done though.

My Dsis has been moaning about our mum recently about how she handles her newborn. Even her partner has said our mums a bit much. She gets in his face and says "say nanny" he's 10 weeks old! She's desperate for that to be his first word.

I'll join in with the shit Christmases too please, worst time of the year. Mother with a carving knife slashing curtains to pieces on Christmas Eve, being taken back to psychiatric facility, my birthday is Boxing Day, and that always brings out the "you ruined my Christmas forever", "I missed my fucking Christmas dinner because of you" and the "you should have been a girl, that's what we wanted" comments, all very serious and no joking attached.

And yes, that all think they are special. They really are special, just not in the way they imagine.