But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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May 2009
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March 2011
November 2011
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August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I think it's a real plus that your daughter is not taken in by her, Alice, but I would agree that your mother is using money and gifts in an attempt to manipulate her. Does your daughter see that?

Much of what you say resonates with me. I have an elderly mother, recently widowed but an absolute nightmare; a middle sister who is Her Representative On Earth, and a loner brother who always takes M's side even though he spent ten years being estranged from her when he was much younger. That's been airbrushed from the family history of course. My much younger DSis is the one I'm close to, and she had it much worse than I did when she was growing up. I was the one who actually parented her as a baby and as a child. Someone had to.

I have very little to do with M and do not intend to have any involvement in her care or, when she dies, the funeral or any arrangements. Middle sister can get on with it - or not - as she chooses. I've spent too much of my life turning myself inside-out in a vain attempt to earn a few crumbs of my mother's love. I'm done.

Put your own mental health and emotional wellbeing first, Alice. You've tried for too long to make a desperately one-sided relationship work. Time to let it go now.

Sorry to jump in mid thread again but I just don't know whether I'm being the unreasonable one or not!

How many members of my family do I have to fall out with before believing it probably is me.

Had an exchange of words with my sister a couple of weeks ago and whilst I'd apologised (for the way in which I went about things) and cleared the air, I had decided to keep my distance for a while because her choices upset me and she seems to not give a shit about that/me.

A close family member has been in hospital for nearly a week so we've all pretty much pretended our exchange never happened so we can concentrate on the patient. Except every time she tries to take over, I find myself biting my tongue so as not to be seen as bossing her around and stopping her but she's making things more complicated than they need to be. Have just had a text convo which resulted in me telling my phone to fuck off

I think it's definitely time to seek professional help - any suggestions on the best way to do that?

www.psychotherapy.org.uk

www.bacp.co.uk

These are the best websites to use for finding a well qualified therapist. Look at their profiles and then see if you can meet them for an initial free half hour or whatever is offered to see if there is a fit. Finding the right therapist is crucial.

@SingingLily

Thanks for your reply. My daughter does know she is probably being played and we have talked about it. She is just grateful for the offers of money being made and is willing to go round and talk to my mother every so often because of it. She knows what my mother is really like though.

Sounds like your daughter has her head screwed on, Alice. It really helps to have someone close who can see it too. That's how you know it's not just your imagination in overdrive.

Yes that’s exactly right! You can start to feel you’re going mad otherwise. It was staying with her for 6 weeks that did it. The mask slipped and then got cast aside completely.

Hi everyone, I've been low contact with my mother for a number of years and no contact properly since April of this year. It comes as no surprise to me that I'm reading this thread on my birthday, as it's the first birthday where she will not contact me in some form (there was never any effort but I'd have still got an obligatory text). I know I won't be contacted by her, and don't want to be, because I didn't contact her on her birthday.

It's taken a long time, but I have finally accepted I will never have the relationship that i want with her.

So much has happened, and when I think back I can't quite believe how I got through it and what I put up with. Maybe I'll post about it sometime. It's great reading all the support on these threads - it's definitely needed! X

Good morning, RaymondReddingtonMrs, I'm sorry that it has come to this, but I'm glad you found us. It takes a great deal of courage to post here for the first time because it means admitting that the problem you've been trying to fix all of your life is actually your mother's problem and something you can't really fix at all.

Take your time, no hurry.

In the meantime, best wishes on your birthday from me. I hope you find some happiness today. Sending you virtual

@SingingLily thank you. You're absolutely right. I've lurked for a lonnnng time and posting is acceptance that I can't control, influence, change etc anything. X

It is not your fault your mother is the ways she is and you RaymondReddingtonMrs (great name that!) did not make her that way (her own parents did that).

Happy Birthday for today

Thanks or the links, Alice. How do you choose? There are so many.

Happy Birthday, Raymond

Happy Birthday RaymondReddingtonMrs!

wishing you a very happy birthday @RaymondReddingtonMrs

Thank you all, I had a lovely day (and didn't hear from my mother!)

Advice needed for a friend. Her father left her DM for another woman when she was 3 and her sister 6, she very much sees it as he left them all, and then when she was 12 HE decided it was best not to see them at all. Think this coincided with him leaving his second wife and 2 more children; that wife had been proactive in wanting her DCs to know their siblings. Her DM was quite ill following his initial departure so generally traumatic and her and her and DSis spent quite a bit of time with GPs. DM re-married a lovely man who was (and still is) a very good father, and friend thinks of him as 'Dad', and in fact her and DS have not told their own DCs that he is not their biological GF. There was one more contact made by email by new wife no. 3 (2 more children) on his behalf about 20 yrs ago, but my friend and DSis declined to want to have any contact with him. On Friday my friend received an email from him, titled 'Last will and testement' written in slightly odd English (she knew he was living in France) and her first thought was that he was already dead. This upset her a lot more than she was expecting, that she might not have an opportunity to speak to him and ask him questions. Anyway, her DSis emailed back and told him to phone her, which he did so he's not dead (although 80 and a heart problem), and due to French law he needs their birth certificates or will cause problems for other children (who he is in contact with) and inheritance. He was emotional and to some extent regretful on the phone, but said he could see they had a nice life with new step-father and thought it was better for them if he walked away completely, that he couldn't see what he could add (bollocks!). Her DSis was nice to him because he cried, and said would it make it better if she told him they'd had nice lives, got married, had children of their own. Reality of course is that they've both had issues with self-confidence, and my friend had a bad first marriage, so not all a bed of roses for them. So friend is now in a dilemma, should she write, see, speak to him; should she send her birth certificate (nice to feel like the one in control for a change); should she feel guilty for not contacting him when he's an old man now; should they tell her DM and DSD; should they tell their own DCs the truth? I've told her she shouldn't rush into doing anything at all, and shouldn't feel guilty, and also sounds like he has relationship with 4 other children so not sure he's genuinely doing this now for anything but selfish reasons. I think she has things she needs to say to him (of course) but she's not sure what she wants or expecting in return (an explanation, an apology?) and then what happens if he doesn't give what she's hoping for? I just wondered if anyone's got any words of wisdom or really just that she has to figure it out herself, and I'm always there for her to talk tonif she needs to vent. Do struggle slightly with secrecy element, not telling DCs their roots (although one adopted) while agree acting as good parent is more important than biological, and not telling DM and DSF now. Thoughts?

Oh dear, FreshStart, that's opened up a fresh new possibility of hurt for your friend in terms of landing her with the impossible choice of maintaining the status quo beliefs of her own children versus hoping for some answers.

I think your advice is sound: don't rush, take your time, don't feel guilty.

I am not a lawyer but know a little about French inheritance law (we'd once planned to live there but decided against, one of the reasons being the very strict - indeed rigid - inheritance laws based on the Napoleonic Code). From my surface knowledge, all of his children's inheritances take priority, are in equal shares and cannot be messed with. The fact that he's on his third marriage makes it both simple and complicated at the same time. Simple for the children. Complicated for his widow.

In plain terms, he got in touch with your friend because he had no choice. This is not about him reaching out, however late in the day, to the children he walked away from. This is not about him belatedly trying to make some sort of amends with his daughter. This is a selfish man who walked out on two families and two lives before settling in France with Family No. 3 and then coming up against the hard reality of the law.

I have no advice for your friend, I'm sorry, except to caution her against this man trying to play on her sympathy by saying just enough to get his own way.

She could, if she wished, respond that she will produce her birth certificate to a UK lawyer who could verify it to the French notaire when the time comes and leave it at that. She doesn't need to say anything to her children if she wishes. She could say it's an inheritance from a distant relative if she wishes (well, he is a relative and he is distant, geographically and emotionally). Whatever she decides, though, the only ones she needs to consider now are herself and her children. Good luck.

SingingLily Thank you. I did wonder about the legal side. I think what has sent her into a spin is the level of feeling she had when she thought he might be dead already, so no opportunity then to have what she now thinks she might need in terms of some kind of closure. The trouble is, a man like that probably isn't going to give her what she wants, not really. "How could he leave us?" is still her burning question even 40-odd years later.

Wives 2 and 3 made some efforts on his behalf (the second wife more than the third, but still).

He didn't. That's telling. He's only doing it now because he has no choice.

I'm afraid your friend has her answer, FreshStart. I'm sorry. It's not the one she hoped for. Please give her my kindest thoughts and best wishes.

I suspect the cold hard truth is he left them because he's a cold-hearted and deeply selfish man, as such he is not going to give her the closure and resolution that she wants and needs, she should not be fooled by the tears, they likely stem from self-pity... he has no sympathy for anyone but himself

Ulterego Yes I said to her that tears were likely a way of deflecting anger or anything thst migjt be hard for HIM to deal with. Ultimately still not acting like a parent should.

Its what we all grapple with, isn't it? Do we pour our heart out, all the years of hurt, even though it might cause hurt to them?

I wouldn't pour my heart out, I see that as making yourself vulnerable and being authentic with someone who has no sympathy for me and has never been authentic with me, they don't deserve it, be a statue, show them only your face of stone

They don't get kinder as they get older, they get selfish and sneaky, they lie and they use the sweet/helpless old person persona to try and get what they want

Wishing you a belated happy birthday and welcome to the thread mrsreddington. Days like that are particularly hard I find. But perhaps you can try to see it as a gift to yourself that you are free from this negative element in your life. I’m new to the thread myself but there is so much wisdom and understanding in here if you wish to post in more detail.

That’s really quite a predicament for your poor friend freshstart. Whilst I would like to be optimistic, I doubt that much good will come of your friend seeking a last minute reconciliation. The only answer to the burning question of why he left is because he’s a selfish and irresponsible man. I understand how being faced with the prospect of his death must have sent your friend into a tailspin. I think that is something we will all grapple with - when the time comes will we regret having cut these people out of our lives? But the fact is that it was their own behavior that let to this result. Also I don’t think it really is possible to hurt these people by telling them of the hurt we ourselves have suffered - they do not take any responsibility for their actions, so fail to see how they could have hurt us.