But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
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March 2011
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Go in, Jinglebells. They are just ordinary people. Go in. They'll make you welcome.

Thank you everyone for welcoming me to this space.
Can't tell you how moving it is to have (multiple!) people validate me unequivocally like this. Thank you. Taking all of your words in.

Uterego, it's powerful and thought-provoking for me to hear that you're 'appalled' to think that a therapist could sympathise with my mother. I've come a long way, but 'sympathising with mother' is one of the things I've historically done best. I was her champion (number 1 enabler!), for the first 3 decades of my life. :( Makes me sick now.

SingingLily, thank you, your words mean so much. Tipped me into tears with your frist sentence. I think you're right in your hunch that my therapist isn't quite the right fit for me, sadly.

HeroComplex, you're spot on that I'm isolated and therefore less inclined to jump ship. With regards my therapist believing me... she does say that she does, and she says she wouldn't lie about that either. However I'm not sure, honestly. I think she believes me in the sense that she can tell that I'm not making shit up, but maybe she conceptualises it more as 'my truth' somehow.... Does that make sense?

I am very touchy about 'six of one and half a dozen of the other' talk, or the idea that the truth is always somewhere in the middle of individual stories. It isn't. My mum will throw me under a hundred buses, lie to everyone's faces over and over about anything and everything, no matter how it harms me. I'm telling the truth. And I'm the one seeking to help myself... I'm the one paying for therapy. I would like it to feel like it's totally mine, and it doesn't. It's difficult.

Yes so much from these thrreads has been a huge help to me over the past many months. Really heartfelt thank yous. I'll share the other resources that have helped me too, for others, when my head's a bit more together.

MarmadukeM Horrific is right, thank you. Truly awful experience. I became absolutely suicidal after that, disengaged from professional 'help' entirely for years, and yes it stuck in my head horrendously and worsened all of my problems. I always wonder whether that's what someone else will think if I tell them. I still don't know what the social worker's motivation was. I mean- WTF?! :( She was convinced she was right, which meant she must have been convinced that I was out-and-out lying about actual specifics that were so difficult for me to talk about as well, that she'd pushed me to tell her. So damaging.

Mum seems to have amalgamated this into one of her versions of reality now too. She had a loud (drunken, of course) talk with the Samaritans on the phone in 2016 (with me in the house) about how her daughter had a "sexual affair" with her fiance, such betrayal, etc.

It's all so painful. :(

I will transcend my origins. Determined to break this chain of awfulness that's been perpetuated generation on generation in my family. This is the work of these threads, and why they're so valuable, and I am so appreciative.

Thank you thank you thank you and the very best of wishes to everybody here. We've all been through awful things that wider society really doesn't 'get' at all. Such wisdom, empathy, and strength here.
So glad to be here and so grateful.

Jinglebells wish you the very best at Al Anon, I really hope it goes well and you feel safe and welcomed there. Well done!

BodySaysNO Oh you have really been through the mill, I'm so sorry you went through that. And to compound it all, the people who were supposed to protect you and help you failed completely, and in fact made you suffer even more.

I agree that the truth is not somewhere in between two perspectives. People who believe this are often well meaning but utterly clueless. What they are doing is in fact excusing awful behaviour, and making the victims question themselves. Unfortunately it sounds like your therapist is one of these people.

It may be worth getting in touch with a specialised charity for survivors (like the Rape Crisis Centre). They might be able to point you towards a more appropriate therapist. Try reading some books as well, like Toxic Parents by Susan Forward.

Well done jingle, I hope the meeting went well for you.

Thank you Cherrycee, and for the recommendations.

Toxic Parents was one of the first books I bought upon finding these threads last year! It has indeed been very helpful. I've followed lots of reading recommendations from these threads, and found/happened upon lots elsewhere too. I'm a natural researcher, and without people in person, so to speak, I've turned to a lot of books and videos and these threads for example.
An incredible poem discovered by chance has actually been central for me- I will definitely share it. And all other resources too not already in the list here. Some really great stuff.

Right now unfortunately I'm quite feverish worse from this flipping Shingles and brain's not flowing nor fingers for typing. but i will be back :)

for the first 3 decades of my life
it took me 5 decades to really see through my parents, so you're ahead of the game.
It's just so hard to overcome the conditioning, especially if there are no other good sensible people that you can trust, when you're damaged it can be hard to properly see who the good people are.
I do wonder if EMDR might help you BodySaysNO ?
shingles is very debilitating I've heard, all this trauma so often comes out as physical symptoms which make it very hard to function.
I have gut issues and more recently skin issues, it's all written in the body/the body keeps the score etc, all the trauma and mental pain is stored up in us, we have to find a way to release it so that we can start to thrive

Thank you for your support. I went and I feel better for it. Every one was kind and welcoming. At the end another person came over who has been through similar and we had a chat. Was nice not to feel alone. I'm emotionally exhausted. Will catch up tomorrow with everyone

Great news Jingle😊

Well done jingle, that's great news.

I've had shingles too body and it is an absolute nightmare, I'll never forget the pain. So you have my full sympathy! Hope you're recovering well.

Bless you, Jinglebells, hope you get a decent night's sleep now. It's taken it out of you but it was the right thing to do.

Agree with Cherrycee, Body. Shingles is excruciatingly painful. You did well to write anything at all. Hope you've got some pain relief and that you manage a good night's sleep as well.

Brilliant news that you went to the meeting Jinglebells. Love your seasonal name changing!

@jingles I'm glad you went and found
it helpful x
@bodysaysno it's all the classic blame shifting behaviour of abusers, what you are describing. Someone has to take responsibility for the various situations we have found ourselves in, and unfortunately due to the nature of how they operate they shift all the blame onto us as they can't/won't admit wrongdoing. Just compounds the foulness of their behaviour. I feel for you xx

Thanks every one, really nice to be in a safe place and i just felt in such a comfortable place with kind people, which is new to me because i seem to attract toxic people into my life. So if anyones been affected by someone in your life drinking/drugs then i'd recommend going.

@BodySaysNO welcome to the thread, i'm so sorry for what you have been through and how you were let down so badly. Can't believe people like that are working in professional MH positions. I hope this thread helps, it has helped me so much.

@FreshStart01 I do love a seasonal occasion

My mum was in a mood as i had not spoken to her for 1 day, said i only want her for favours. I asked if she was ok and she replied no im not. I asked what's wrong and she said she just feels low. However she says she's not depressed. Makes me laugh that she doesn't want to know my issues but she wants me to listen to hers. So i'm still trying to distance myself emotionally which is helping, i'm not feeling so attached. Normally i'd worry about her being funny with me, but this time i'm just letting her get on with it. I'm trying to build a life for myself which doesn't involve her so much.Which i know she will hate. She will begin with the guilt tripping no doubt such as " never see you anymore" "you don't want to know us anymore". When in fact i would just be living a healthy life not enmeshed and attached to them and finally live an adult life if that makes sense. Sorry for the ramble, helps to get it out.

Jingle maybe a very stealthy slow grey rock would work for you with your mother, visualise a photograph of her and very very gradually turn down the colour until it's all black and white and then fade it so you can hardly see her
Maybe something like that could be a template for how to deal with her?

@Jinglebells10 good on you that's fantastic!

@BodySaysNO I am 100% with you on the whole "we all have our own truth" bullshit. It's fine if it's something like say relationship counselling where you can (more or less) assume good faith from both parties but it's damaging and victim blaming where there's abuse. I think there are some counsellors who need to see good in everyone because of their own codependent traits and who would better look into their own origins before they start trying to help others, you know?

I can totally see why the helping professions would attract people who are predatory and want to abuse power

Reading through this thread , there is so much that resonates.
I am looking for advice. My mother and I are estranged, haven't spoken in two months since an unpleasant exchange which turned quite upsetting.
I think my mother has a lot of issues, and may be a narcissist. I am the scapegoat and my sister is the golden child. My mother has always had issues with me and can suddenly turn nasty when least expected. She will throw in spiteful remarks or put me down. I didn't speak to her for three years a long time when I just couldn't take it anymore.
Since the latest exchange, neither of us have tried to contact the other. I realise that things are never going to be as I would want them to be . She is incapable of being the mother I need. The problem is whether or not to try to sort this out so far as it can be sorted out. I feel sorry for her as she is widowed and elderly, and I don't think she is in control of her behaviour. However I have to say that we have never had a good relationship and she has let me down so many times.
Lately she has been turning on the sweet old lady act with my adult daughter who previously she had no real time for. She has been a bitch to my daughter and shows no interest in her life. Suddenly she is showing lots of interest and offering to pay for her to do a course she wants to do. I can't help feeling this is to give the impression that i have wronged her or to use my daughter for information to feed the rest of the family.
My sister and mother are in cohorts and in the past my sister would not see my side of things and I hardly saw her the time I was not speaking to my mother. My brother, who is a recluse didn't contact me in three years either. They both take my mother's side.
Lately I have been trying to help sort out a lot of things that my mother can't cope with and now they are all being left to slide as neither sibling is able/willing to help. So if I let this go on everything will get in more of a mess.
Part of me wants to just walk away from the lot of them. However my adult children are in touch and again, think I should sort things out.
I feel very isolated , lonely and upset. I don't want to keep setting myself up for more hurt but I can't rest easy either with an elderly widowed mother who has no one in the family to help.
What should I do?

I think I'm going mad. After DH refused his mother's request to extend her visit (I stayed out of it, haven't been party to any of the conversations) I arrived home today to a bunch of flowers and a card from her (sent through the post) just saying 'to a wonderful mum of 2 great children'. Why?? I can't help but not trust her motive, I think she's realised I'm stepping back and is trying to get me back on-side. It just screams 'look at how kind and thoughtful I am, be grateful and stop distancing yourself from me'. Stupid thing is, she's arriving in about 2 hours for her visit, so I don't know why she bothered to waste money sending a flower delivery when she could have just brought them with her.

Lately she has been turning on the sweet old lady act with my adult daughter who previously she had no real time for. She has been a bitch to my daughter and shows no interest in her life.

She knows what she is doing, Alice. It's push/pull, classic divide-and-conquer, and it keeps you off-balance (same as with you, ScatteredMama. She's putting you on the back foot, hence the flowers).

I can only say what I would do. Nothing. I'd do nothing. You have a sister who is in cahoots with her. You have a brother who always takes her side. They are not willing to put themselves out for her because they are expecting you, as scapegoat, to carry the responsibility and to worry yourself endlessly about it. That's the role you've been assigned. But you have a choice now. You can refuse to accept your role and step away from it.

How will it affect your life on an everyday practical level if things now slide for your mother? Probably not at all. The load you carry is an emotional one because you are the family football. You can just put it down and stop carrying it now.

If your adult children are in touch with her now, well, they are adults now. They are also old enough not to place expectations on you if they don't know the back story.

Please have a look at this website, particularly the sections entitled What To Do and What Not To Do. It might help.

outofthefog.website/

I'm sorry you feel so lonely and upset. I know how that feels. There's always someone on here to listen and you are always welcome.

Hi @Alicethroughthelookinglass welcome 💐

Just a thought about adult children (I’m in the same position myself) it’s much easier for them if you are all neat and tidy relationship-wise I think, it takes the worry away for them that you’re unhappy. But it’s not a good idea to mend something as damaging to you as you’re describing. It sounds like you’re done and ready to think about yourself now.

Alice

Please take heed of what hero and SingingLily have written here. I concur with every word they have written.

Re your comment:-
She is incapable of being the mother I need. The problem is whether or not to try to sort this out so far as it can be sorted out. I feel sorry for her as she is widowed and elderly, and I don't think she is in control of her behaviour. However I have to say that we have never had a good relationship and she has let me down so many times"

This can NEVER be sorted out because your mother will simply keep on moving the goalposts about. It is NOT your fault your mother is the ways she is and you did not make her that way. Whilst it is one thing for me to write and quite another to achieve I would walk away from all your family of origin. They bring nothing positive into your life and you need radiators around you and not drains.

It is also NOT possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

Scattered

I would trust your MIL about as far as I can throw her. Those are not apology flowers; those are a way of her wanting to exert further power and control over you all. Its designed to wrong foot you and is quite deliberate in its intent.

Alice

You've had some great responses here already and I agree with them completely. The reason your sister and brother side with your mother is because they are enmeshed and co-dependent. As the scapegoat, you suffered a lot but now you can clearly see your mother for what she is. Remember the sweet old lady act is another form of manipulation.

Regarding your daughter, it may be helpful to sit her down and tell her about the way you were treated by your mother, and explain that you believe she's a narcissist. Show her some of the resources in the OP if you think it would be useful. Obviously you can't stop them from having a relationship, but you can prepare your daughter and tell her that you want to protect her from the damaging behaviour you suffered.

Scattered I agree, your MIL can't be trusted. This just an elaborate gesture to make you feel grateful to her. Wouldn't surprise me if she behaves badly and pulls the "after everything I've done for you" card, with the flowers as an example. I think you and your husband need to be wise to it, and back each other up in asserting your boundaries.

Thanks for the responses. They are very validating. My counsellor asks why I would put myself back in a situation where I will be 'sucked in, chewed up and spat out' again. Which more or less sums it up..

My daughter absolutely sees my mother for who she is, having been forced to stay with her for 6 weeks recently. The scales really fell from her eyes. She stays in touch because my mother is offering to pay for things and she feels beholden, which is no doubt the intention. She doesn't like my mother and thinks she has a really unpleasant side. It is good for me that someone sees what I see at least.

My mother has never treated my siblings like she has me, so they believe my issues with her are my own fault. They see my mother is difficult but she has not been nasty and spiteful to them in the way she has me. They have a 'let it go' policy, which I have tried to adopt, but in the face of really unpleasant behaviour it's very hard. Especially when I have no basic relationship with her to fall back on.

I made myself responsible for her affairs, no one asked me to do it. However I was horrified by what a mess everything was in and ultimately it will fall on me to sort it out when she dies as the other two have no idea what to do. I am thinking I just may not get involved and step away entirely. I organised my father's funeral on my own and it will be the turn of my siblings when my mother goes.

Agree with everyone else, those flowers are just a carrot to lure in the poor trusting donkey so she can keep beating him with her big stick,
or maybe snow white with the wicked queen and the poisoned apple is a better metaphor?

I am thinking I just may not get involved and step away entirely
and without you to vent her spleen the others may get a glimpse of the real her?
I would step away and observe unseen from a safe distance