But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Good morning, everyone.

I've avoided this thread for a long time, but it's time to figure out how to deal with my life better.

I had an argument with my mother this morning. Quick summary, I split with my ex earlier this year due to DV, my DC are coping in various ways, I have a lot on my plate, and when I don't pay enough attention to my mother she gets offended and takes it out on me and my DC.

She had a difficult childhood, I believe she is in an abusive relationship with her husband, but I just don't have it in me to mitigate her reactions to my DV experiences and supporting my DC through their trauma.

I'm exhausted.

Hello, I've not been on for a while as we've had a month of bliss while MIL was away on a long trip overseas so virtually no contact. DH invited her to come for DS1s birthday this weekend, and she sent me an email late last night asking if she could stay a bit longer than usual (she usually just comes for a night or 2 but this time she wants to come for the long weekend). As usual, instead of asking her son this she's come through me which she knows I detest. DH works away, so I forwarded it on to him and didn't reply to her, but I know she'll ring me later asking if I got her email and putting me on the spot for an answer. Any advice on how to evade her, and get her to stop using me as a go-between? I don't want to cause an argument and ruin DS's birthday weekend :(

Scattered

Why did your DH invite her to visit this weekend; is this really because of his own inertia (this is also hurting him as well as you people) re his mother along with FOG (fear, obligation and guilt)?.

You also seem very fearful almost of this woman as well.
Why did you however, forward her email onto him?. Do you feel uncomfortable yourself about telling her no if you do not want her in your home for longer?. She comes through you as well because she sees you as the weaker link here. He does not readily if at all want to speak to her; by forwarding her email to him you have done as she directed.

You cannot change them but you can and certainly should change how you react to them. You need firmer along with definitely higher boundaries re them because otherwise you will merely continue be used by the two of them as a buffer for their own ends.

She was not a good parent to him when he was growing up and she has not fundamentally changed since his own childhood. If the person is too toxic/difficult or just plain old batshit for YOU to deal with, its the same deal for these children as well.

Chloe thank you for mentioning Philippa Perry I have been listening to podcasts and watching YouTube videos with her in them, it's just so comforting and soothing to listen to her (although I do get distracted by her amazing wonderful hair😍)

Morenicecereal sorry to hear about what you've been through, this is a huge amount of trauma and it's completely out of order for your mother to sulk like that, can you start to put some boundaries in place?

Scattered it's such a bastard when they try and put you on the spot isn't it, but you don't have to take the phone call you can keep all communications written if you want to.

MoreNiceCereal

Who started this argument; was it your mother?. Are you their only child?. She was probably spoiling for a fight in any case, is she on your ex's side?. How dare she anyway take it out on your children and you. You would not tolerate this from a friend, your mother is no different.

All credit to you for being able to split from your abusive ex partner. I would urge you also to look at and enrol yourself onto the Freedom Programme run by Womens Aid if you have not already heard about this.

We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents; what did yours teach you?. You likely also had a very difficult childhood at their hands and they taught you a lot of damaging crap about relationships. She likely gets what she wants out of the relationship she has with her H. Keep concentrating your efforts going forward on your own self and your children.

I would not grant her any sort of an audience going forward and she is likely only using you as her sounding board in any event. Lessening the current amount

of contact is necessary here for your own mental wellbeing and peace of mind.

I'll try to answer questions.

I have been pulling back from regular contact with her and sharing private information, but I'm not always successful at this, and we tend to swing wildly from being in each other's pockets to not talking for weeks at a time. It's always my fault when we don't talk regularly, though.

She sulks when I don't behave as I ought to, and again this is me pulling away from her rather than her being emotionally distant.

I am her only daughter and her only child in this country. We are from America originally, and my two brothers have moved back to the States. She's about to go visit them and wanted to supposedly clear the air between us before she left, completely disregarding the fact that she knows I am struggling under the weight of some serious issues in my life. The long-term stuff of splitting from an abusive relationship and recent extra stuff I'm coping with as well. I told her I was tired, she called me this morning while I was getting DC ready for school anyway. She said "I know this isn't the best time" but kept arguing with me.

I say arguing, but it just felt like any time I tried to call her out on her insinuations and underhanded remarks it was turned into an argument. She was offended and hurt at every turn. She said things like "I support you" and then would question my actions and behaviour in the next breath.

She is upset with my children for not interacting with her the last time she visited but she compared my DS to his dad and they all found this offensive. She gives them no space to be themselves and no respect that swanning into their lives a couple of times a year does not make a close relationship. She ignores them when she visits and makes empty promises all the time. The more I write the more I realise she was the same with me, really, but I lived with her.

She's not on my ex's side, she's on her own side. She wants me to make allowances for how hard she's finding this situation, and how sad she is. I don't have the energy to mitigate her feelings, I have my own self and my DC to sort out. I just can't take her into account.

I have an excellent support network and have read the freedom programme books. I feel quite confident and happy after leaving him, but what I didn't understand is how my leaving an abusive relationship would shine a light on the dysfunctional relationships I have in the rest of my life.

What did my mom teach me? That my boundaries are wrong. That's what I'm feeling right now. That what I think, feel, do - only is ok if it doesn't make her uncomfortable. That I have to smooth her ruffled feathers all the time and if I don't, I'm a bad person. I must stay in my prescribed box and role in life. If I don't, there's something wrong with me.

I have a mountain of pressure in my life, I was coping quite well up until a few weeks ago and then I ended up with more things to deal with and I just cannot handle her trying to get me to bow and scrape like I used to. I don't want to.

Hi @MoreNiceCereal I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, finding your boundaries with your ex has shown you why you had none in the first place - your mother.

She’s seen you get up from under the rubble and it worries her because she needs you to be her emotional helpmeet, so her ‘clearing the air’ means her re-stating her place in your life.

It sounds like your kids have got the measure of her though, so that’s good.

Hard to go through two painful separations.

Is she going to see your brothers? Will they get a sob story and give you a hard time?

MoreNice, my impression from what you say is that your mother sees you as an extension of herself...cannot think of you as a person in your own right, it sounds as if your instincts are to protect yourself by not sharing any personal information with her, but this goes against what she wants and her instincts are to try and manipulate you into sharing so that she can dominate.
You totally should not bow and scrape, shut her down when she takes the piss!
Do you think she would be amenable to seeking therapy for her own difficulties? (not that it should be your job to make sure this happens)

MoreNiceCereal

Boundaries have always been a problem here for you mainly because your mother never really encouraged you to have any. Your own childhood played a role here in you going onto have your own abusive relationship in adulthood. She is not sad for any of you at all and has made this all about her and her feelings. Not that she ever gave a fig about you in any event.

I agree that your kids have indeed got the measure of your mother and they have indeed found her wanting. They on some level probably wonder why you at all speak with her now (FOG?). You were treated similarly by her during your childhood. You can break away and out from under these roles that she gave you.

How are your brothers treated by her, are they generally more favoured?. Its not your fault that she is the ways she is; you did not make her that way. She wants to put you back in the roles that were assigned to you by her from early childhood and wants her own way all the time.

Her sulking is another form of emotional abuse being lobbed at you. Many people also have difficult childhoods and its still no excuse or justification for what she has done to you all here. You do not treat your children in the ways you were and remain treated by your mother.

You may want to consider enrolling on the WA Freedom Programme in person.

Sadly Ulterego I doubt very much that MoreNiceCereal;'s mother would even consider therapy because such types more often than not think they are perfect and or have done nothing wrong here. I do not think she would make for being a good candidate for therapy either even if she did deign to attend (and it would need to be for years rather than months). She would probably tell the therapist that her kids are older than he/she.

And as you rightly state too its not MoreNiceCereals' job.

@morenicecereal- I like your name! Your mother sounds like a self centred shit and from what you are saying your kids don't particularly like her. I can understand why you have had your fill of her behaviour; you have enough on your plate without having to pander to this adult child. That must've been really tough getting out the DV situation, I can see how it's made you realise how much your relationship with your mother is a drain in you. It's exhausting being around people who make it all about them x

I know, I know the idea that a narcissist might engage with therapy is a long shot to say the least🙈 (although it might be into interesting to watch their face when you suggest it😲)
This relentless insistent that you give them an audience aargghh it just makes me want to stonewall and I have with both of my parents
mind you I've had to kiss goodbye to a sizable inheritance 🙄
Still what price sanity!

@Ulterego do they say that to you? About money?

@Ulterego I'm also out the will ha ha they did it years ago and just said 'your brother needs it more than you'. Because I have achieved independence etc and he hasn't. I was just expected to accept it as being totally normal. More evidence of their mad behaviour! But apparently my daughter is inheriting my mothers Indian emerald collection that she likes to show off 😂.

I don't think anyone ever got divorced in order to be financially better off.

@AttilaTheMeerkat My DH invited her out of a sense of duty, for sure. He's gone NC in the past but after a few years she edged back in. I know I should have gone back to her and said 'ask MrScattered' but I don't want to cause more friction than there is already. I'm being a coward, I know.

On the plus side, DH has just messaged me saying he's replied to her already and said no, she can't extend her visit. This is a result! Just waiting for the fall-out now, we'll see how she reacts to not getting her own way but I'm ridiculously pleased that he hasn't given in to her :)

It's over 15 years since I spoke to my mother, roughly in the middle of that period I was informed by proxy that if I didn't stop all this nonsense I would be written out of the will, I did not respond what can you say to that 'hello Mummy I'll pretend to be nice to you just because I want the money'
She was conned out of her own inheritance by her sex offender sibling so I don't imagine that she would ever actually let me have anything anyway, she wouldn't want me to succeed where she had failed!
(They are probably worth about a million between them)

@Ulterego @MarmadukeM another one out of the will too! 5 months after mums sudden death and bang! Bye to £300k but I have to get over that.

I'm starting therapy next week, I had some after mum died but didn't find it helpful, I think that was due to not addressing the issues I felt with my dad, even after mums death it's him I'm consumed with, anger, realisation and I need to address this as it's frightening.

You must be exhausted cereal essentially being expected to mother your own mother with everything else you have to deal with. Will you get some respite when she goes away to visit your brothers? I hope so.

That’s a good result scattered ! I don’t know the whole background but hopefully it will be the start of your DH putting more boundaries in place towards his mother.

You may or may not have been written out of the inheritance ulter but you can’t put a price on your own happiness and mental health. 15 years is a long time to have been NC so it’s obviously the right thing for you, well done for ignoring her threats and sad attempts to get you back. It’s tragic isn’t it how these people use threats and drama to try to get us back rather than examining their own behavior and looking at the rule they themselves have played!?

Has anyone found any methods of accessing their feelings for moving on in therapy? I don't think it's right that I don't seem able to 'feel' the anger and upset and stuff. I've done 10 sessions now with the therapist and I did cry on two occasions (not infront if her but at home) but that was it. And it's not that I don't want to cry/rage or whatever but my mind just goes blank and I seem to disengage constantly and I switch off. It's holding me back from making progress I think so any tips would be appreciated! I want to purge myself, surely all that stuff is squashed down somewhere? It's got to be!

Hi Scattered

re your comment:-

I know I should have gone back to her and said 'ask MrScattered' but I don't want to cause more friction than there is already. I'm being a coward, I know.

You are not a coward, many people would want to back down in the face of overbearing behaviour from someone as disordered of thinking as his mother. But you do need higher boundaries (you would not have tolerated this from a friend for instance) and in particular a jointly agreed plan as to how your DH and you deal with her going forward.

"On the plus side, DH has just messaged me saying he's replied to her already and said no, she can't extend her visit. This is a result! Just waiting for the fall-out now, we'll see how she reacts to not getting her own way but I'm ridiculously pleased that he hasn't given in to her"

This is indeed a result. Going forward both of you need to present a united front re his mother. As for the fallout she will likely rant and rave about his decision but what can she do ultimately?. Nothing to make him change his mind. Do not let her frighten or otherwise intimidate you going forward.

I think inheritance, money and wills gets ‘normal’ families in a state quite often. Throw in the narcissist stuff and you’ve got all kinds of manipulative stuff.

Hi I'm quite new here. Hope you don't mind me jumping in again!! I've posted a couple of times about my mum.
I've just had a conversation with her where i knew she would try and guilt trip me so she could get her own way. It was so predictable but i reluctantly went along with things as i did feel so guilty/bad

But now I recognise the pattern, is this the first step to finding the courage to stand up to her?! I hope so 😔

Toxic parents do indeed use money and the threat of disinheritance as attempts to further control their now adult offspring.