But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi @fazakerleyjackie and @AttilaTheMeerkat thanks for replying.

Yes those examples are things that happened to me as a child, things like that would happen all the time. I would have an accident and I would get into huge trouble for it. It made me think when DH said to me he thinks my DM bullies my DDad now. Also I overcompensate with my own DD by never getting angry with her or telling her off.

I was scared of DM's temper and still am wary of it now and now I have a child I'm thinking how it is affecting my own approach to parenting. DD is almost one and I think I've martyred myself over her in some ways - I won't let her cry for a minute without picking her up etc etc. I'm so scared of her feeling alone I want to make sure she is reassured and loved but think I'm probably running myself into the ground by being so obsessive over it.

Candycane no mate IMO those examples are pretty bad. End of your tether is snapping at your kid, going "oh for Christ's sake did you need to go and get nits now on top of everything else" and then that's it over. Not speaking to the kid, holding a grudge about it, is over into abusive territory IMO and speaks to someone who's not quite right, because who blames a child for something that they can't help?

Can I ask what happened about the hair - was the hair cut by someone else? Was it something like the child was being bullied, or some other reason for the hair to look different, that if the mother had admitted it to herself, would have meant having to go and do some emotional work, confront someone or something like that?

Regarding them being nice the rest of the time - abusers are nice some of the time. (As long as everything is going OK for them, usually). You might find the Cycle of Abuse concept interesting if you've not seen it before.

FWIW my mother, who I believe has paranoid personality disorder although she's never been inside a psychiatrist's office, did stuff like this. When I was a kid, the worst times were the intervals between me getting ill and being diagnosed with something by a doctor that my mother had respect for. Until she had the diagnosis she just regarded me as a malingerer who was doing it to spite her. She used to shout at my dad for forgetting things when he had Alzheimer's. She seemed to believe that we were being ill "at her" - like, on purpose to wind her up, and that if she shouted loudly enough we'd go back to being normal.

@toomuchtooold

I started having panic attacks when I was a young teenager but I didn't know that's what they were at the time, I thought there was something physically wrong with me. My mum eventually took me to the doctors who referred us to a specialist and they said it was anxiety. My mum wouldn't acknowledge it though and was angry at me for wasting the doctor's time and said they would be annoyed at us for going.

The hair had been cut by a hairdresser my mum arranged and a tiny bit of it was a bit shorter than the rest, you couldn't notice it. She said that I had cut it myself and made it look a mess etc.

CandyCane, yes to being scared of M's temper, I so understand what you are saying and I think everyone else will too. You will be a great parent, don't sweat the small stuff. No one ever had a bad upbringing because they were little and cried and got hugged with love ok? So you are doing all the right things with your little one, go with what you feel is right. Wise thoughts from toomuch.
Tell us more if it helps. I sat here quite a while, and I'm just finding my voice now.

My guess would be either one of these two. 1. your mother had some reason she wanted to retain her opinion of the haircut as a good haircut - she'd decided she liked the hairdresser, or she held the belief that you should complain about bad service but she was actually scared of complaining - and it was easier to blame you than to blame the hairdresser. or 2. Your mother was already in a bad mood and looking for something to be angry about.

I'm totally drawing these conclusions based on what my own mother would do but they all follow the same playbook I think.

And the thing with the panic attacks rings all sorts of bells for me. I'm guessing that if your mother was even willing to accept panic attacks were a thing, she had an idea in her head of who has them and it wasn't you.

Have you had a look at any of the resources on the OP? Toxic Parents and If You Had Controlling Parents might be interesting for you.

CandyCane, reading your story is like reading about myself. I sometimes wonder if there is a "manual of rotten things to do" these so called parents refer to.

On the subject of being scared of the parent's temper, reflecting on my own experience and trying to understand what was really going on, I wasn't exactly scared of my mother but still found it very hard to stand up to her, I think it was because she was so quick off the mark such a sharp tongue that it was very hard not to be triggered by her, as soon as she set eyes on you she would verbally slap you round the face and then you are reeling.
Now that I understand the dynamics of my interactions with her I think I could deal with her in a face-to-face interaction, I think I could be impervious to her assaults.
But too many years have passed, if I had word that she was on her deathbed would I go along to watch her last breath leave her body? I don't think I would there would be snipers waiting for me...some kind of booby trap 😳😲😳

CandyCane about parenting... I think it can be very hard if you've grown up with a toxically angry parent because you will have been trained to be hypervigilant to your mother's moods. Then you have a child and you're supposed to be like the calm centre that holds when they are having strong emotions, but you're going around with your sensitivity to others' emotions turned up to 11. It is very stressful... for you. But as fazackerley says, no child ever suffered from being comforted too much. It's you that you need to take care of. Don't let yourself get overwhelmed.

I got beaten up by the class bully once, CandyCane. No particular reason for it, it was just my turn. Black eye, bloody nose, bruises everywhere. When I trudged home, M took one look at me and shrieked, "Look at the state of you! Your Dad and I were going to take you shopping for a new coat (what??? I never got new clothes) but I'm not being seen in public with you in that state. You're a disgrace. Get to your room. You'll go without your tea".

So, being an obedient child, I went upstairs, did my best to bathe my wounds and went to my room. The next day, I had to go to school as usual and sit in the same classroom as the bully and all her gang. I was ten.

It's exactly the same sort of parenting as you suffered. And it's no wonder you feel you over-compensate with your own DC. You don't want them to feel as lonely and isolated and unloved and miserable as you did. It's completely understandable. 💐

I have to ask, though. Was your father around at the time? Or anyone else?

Your DH sounds very perceptive.

Thank you all I'm reading and will reply properly later once DD is sleeping and I have more time. But I appreciate all of these insights.

CandyCane SingingLily Awful stories, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I spoil my DCs rotten, do way too much for them, cuddle them, comfort them, chat with them. Drives my DH mad, he thinks they'll grow up mollycoddled. I don't care, I just want them to feel loved by both of us, never feel like we're anything but proud of them, and if you can't spoil them when they're kids, then when can you?

My DSis does the same with her two, FreshStart. As many hugs as they want, and she never ever ends the hug first. She lets them do that, always. She worries endlessly about whether she's a good mum or not - no role model available in our birth family.

I say if you make your children feel loved, warm, safe and secure, and if they know they can come to you and you will listen, then you are already winning in the parent stakes.

The last few posts have really resonated with me (I've lurked on this thread for a while and posted under a different username).
I've had children and find now they're toddlers who are asserting their independence and can challenge I find I'm quick to shout/anger over the smallest of things. It's frightened me as my mum was like that and our relationship is awful (or rather, was awful. I'm NC now)
I've booked a counselling session to work through it all as I'm desperate to avoid repeating history. Where do you start though? My mum has just about every trait you read about Narcissistic Personality Disorder, she subjected us (my siblings and I) to some awful things, ranging from neglect/abuse to inappropriate sexual behaviour.

I've never spoken about a lot of it before and I fear it's all going to tumble out and not make sense. Do I just deal with the worries I have at the moment (I open my mouth and a watered down version of my mother appears) or do I start from the beginning and dredge up things I've long since allowed to effect me...? I'm scared of alienating the counsellor with my mother's depravity!

I'm scared of alienating the counsellor with my mother's depravity!

Don't worry random, they are trained to deal with this stuff. It's part of the job. And your mother's depravity is not your fault, but you suffered and now you need help processing it. Well done for recognising that and taking the first step.

All you need to do is tell the counsellor why you're there - that you had a very difficult upbringing with a narcissistic mother, and you want to deal with your past and make sure you break the cycle for your own children. You don't have to go into details of what happened if you don't feel up to it (especially in a first session). It's ok to tell the counsellor that there are some things you don't feel able to talk about yet. But just hearing the word 'narcissist' means they'll have an idea of some of the stuff you went through.

Best of luck with it

I've never spoken about a lot of it before and I fear it's all going to tumble out and not make sense. Do I just deal with the worries I have at the moment (I open my mouth and a watered down version of my mother appears) or do I start from the beginning and dredge up things I've long since allowed to effect me.

Sorry I meant to reply to this bit too. It's ok if it all tumbles out, the counsellor will be able to make more sense of it than you think. It's also ok if you focus on current worries for now and just mention your upbringing, though the counsellor will likely bring you back to it in future sessions.

I find it helps not to overthink what I'm going to say, and just go in and see what happens. In my first session I ended up talking about all sorts of stuff that I hadn't expected to, but it helps the counsellor get an idea of what's going on.

Remember you're not there to be judged on what you say or do, the counsellor is there to help you make sense of things.

Thank you very much @Cherrycee it's all stuff we were conditioned to never speak of so it's completely alien to be voluntarily discussing it. It needs to happen though; the critical and angry side of me is rearing its head far more than I'm comfortable with. I want my kids to feel safe and secure with me; imagine being able to trust a parent eh?!

Hi @randominternetperson
Firstly, with the counsellor just say all those things you’ve said there, they’re a great place to start. That you’re worried about what they’ll think, that you’re not sure which bits are important. They give a real insight for the counsellor as to where you’re at right now.

Secondly the shouting at the toddlers. Have you heard of Phillipa Perry‘s The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read? She suggests that we get triggered when our kids are in situations that we found stressful when we were their age. I was always vile when my children wanted to do cooking, really short and snappy with them, which I’m not normally like. Then I was in the kitchen with my mother and and realised how critical and hard she is and was, probably much worse years ago. I just associate that situation with tension. Does that feel familiar at all?

YES!!! It really does. Daft things like them not putting their shoes on or not listening and I shout. Anything bigger than that I can be so patient and take them through step by step but I lose my shit just about every morning getting them dressed. I think the turning point was my eldest shouting at my youngest "just do that NOW!" And I realised how damaging my behaviour is (even though they're warm, fed, loved)
So off I go to get some better coping mechanisms to try to save them!

SingingLily seriously enough I had a similar experience. My birthday, mid teens. Some older girls waited eight outside school and threw all this crap over me as I exited, no warning. I was wearing a newish coat that I was so happy with. I had to walk home like that, utterly humiliate. DM opened the door and did the same, shrieked at me, don't think I'm going to buy you a new coat, sent me upstairs to try to get all this stuff stuck like glue out of my hair. I remember that feeling of complete aloneness, standing in the shower.

Then to top it off DM went to school without me knowing, it got back to the girls and just made my life worse. I'm not sure whether she even thought about me, as a person - just saw a problem created for her.

*right outside

Myfavouriterain, I'm so sorry. She piled hurt on top of the humiliation. Yes to that feeling of being all alone in the world, not knowing what it was like to have someone in your corner.

When I trudged home, I had no expectation or hope of any sympathy or even acknowledgement of my distress - even at the age of ten. I went home in the same way that you'd go to a bus stop to catch the bus or the shop to buy milk. Going home was just something you did when you finished school for the day. Where else would you go? It was just a place.

Those are such heart-breaking stories Lily, terrain, random and candy cane, I’m so sorry you each had to go through that. It makes what I put up with with my own mother pale into insignificance. Referring to your home s just a place is so incredibly sad lily. You deserved so much better than that.

It’s no wonder you started suffering from panic attacks and anxiety candy and I’m sure your mother’s reaction was because she realised on some level that she was the cause of it and was perhaps worried about being found out. You sound like such a lovely mother, you can never do wrong by your children by giving them love and attention. It will create a secure attachment which all children need.

This is another point raised in the Philippa Perry book which I was also going to recommend too although I’ve only just started reading it. She’s also been on quite a few podcasts recently if anybody is interested in listening quickly to to main principles in the book - she was on Dr Chatterjee’s podcast (not really on topic but I really recommend him for anybody interested in healthier living and lifestyle medicine) and on the Motherkind podcast I think.

As to her book, I find it hard to believe that every time we feel charged emotions towards our children that it’s rooted in our own childhood - that seems like it’s letting us off the hook too easily. With my own children though I get most frustrated when they start fighting with each other - I get so mad. But looking back to my childhood, I realised that me and my brother used to fight like cat and dog and my parents just used to leave us to it and never taught us any means of resolving things between us. So I guess the anger and frustration I feel towards my own children is rooted in the helplessness I felt in the same situation as a child.

You’ve phrased that very eloquently marmaduke referring to a yearning for things to have been different. When I was at school I spent a lot of weekends at a school friend’s house and had, for want of a better word, a crush on her entire family unit. They’d sit around the breakfast table together chatting convivially and I longed for my family to be like that. We’re still good friends now and I really wish I had a mother like hers, she’s such a lovely lady.

It’s only thanks to the Internet that I ever became aware that there was such a thing as being NC or LC with your parents. I like to think of myself as an intelligent person but it never occurred to me that you could just cut these people out of your life. They are family, you have to stick together right. But if a friend had treated me the way my mother had they would not have stayed a friend for very long!

Oh no, @SingingLily and @myfavouriterain the thought of you going home all hurt and humiliated to get no kindness whatsoever is heartbreaking. It’s the ‘what did you do to deserve that?’ school of thought that my parents were quite fond of.

I’m not sure I ever told them much about things that happened to me, I think I learned pretty quickly that it would lead to a sort of interrogation where I would be found to be at fault. I’ve never really thought about that before.

@Myfavoriterain Truely awful that you had to go through that, I want to go back through time and give you a hug.

@Herocomplex I didn't tell my parents anything either, for the different reason of not feeling I could pile any more worry on them when they already had my DB to worry about. I've told my DM things that happened since, like being force-fed lumpy custard by a dinnerlady, and she's so upset that I didn't tell her at the time. I've carried this into adulthood and often don't tell my DH things that have happened that I'm embarassed about (he still thinks a dent in the side of our car happened in an airport carpark while we were on holiday, when actually I scraped a bollard a few days earlier) even though he's really not going to chastise me. There's a lot I don't tell him and its all really stupid stuff.