But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@ChloeChloe My story of going NC is on this thread so I won't go into too much detail. After going LC and grey rocking (not that I knew that was a thing at the time!) my F got progressively more angry with my lack of or delays in response to his calls and emails I think, but final straw was him being very verbally agressive to DD2 on the phone when she was trying to thank him for her b'day present, because she hadn't written to thank him. Anyway, at this point I wrote him an email explaining how I felt. I didn't go into loads of detail, it wasn't a complete pouring my heart out, but I did try to put across how I felt. The frustration with this though is that a narc is not then going to turn round and say how awful they feel for making you miserable, that they've realised the error of their ways, and they regret their behaviour. No. They will frame it that you are in the wrong/over-sensitive/mad. My F's response was 'So be it. Perhaps you should have done it sooner...' and then another rant about my DD's terrible manners. I then felt like I'd not explained it well enough, that I hadn't properly got my point across, which made it hard for me to move forward, even though I knew that NC was right and it was really pointless to break that in the hope that I could say something else which might sink in. I don't know the answer as for me it wasn't going to work to just fade out from LC to NC, and I needed to tell him, to make it absolutely clear. Presents - I would tell her in no uncertain terms to stop sending them, they're just a way of her being able to say 'look how much I'm doing for/spending on you and your DC, you should be grateful'. They are not sent as gifts, nothing expected in return, with only love behind them.

@FreshStart01 I think his ploy of repeating the complaint about your DD was meant to have that effect on you. You’d launched (as he saw it) a huge attack on his ego, so he had to reciprocate but that was all he had. NarcissistS can’t accept or reflect on criticism so they just throw it back at you. His response just illustrates beautifully how accurate and perceptive you were.

she only talks about herself
I notice this with my father, it makes me think of pressure of speech, or as if there is a body of water trapped behind a dam, any opening and the things that he wants to bring my attention to force their way out, if necessary he will lie and speak over me in order to have things his way.

Herocomplex Yes, I think what he actually put was "...but I ask you to consider why you've chosen to do this now..." as if I'd go to the extent of NC because I know he's right about our disgraceful manners but just can't admit it, so I've just come up with some ridiculous story about how bad he's always made me feel. It was then really hard not to reply, to say 'no dad, you're wrong, this is NOT all about the one issue that you're angry about, this is about how you've been the whole of my life'. It was a confusion of guilt that I was hurting him by going NC, and really wanting him to understand everything I felt even though that would, or should if he wasn't a narc, hurt him more.

You’re right hero that confrontation is more in the narcissist’s realm. I don’t think it would serve any purpose as it would not cause her to reflect on her own behavior in any way. I also feel it is very final - like it’s very difficult to back track from. I dread the day, I guess as many here do, when I hear that she’s (genuinely) very ill. I feel that low contact is the better option for me at the moment. Perhaps part of me hopes that she will see the error of her ways and we’ll have a meaningful relationship. But let’s face it that is not going to happen. I think I may start throwing away some of the things she has gifted me and the children. Like you say, there are just so many reminders around that it would be better to get rid of them.

Thanks for sharing your experiences of going NC onetwotree and marmaduke. I’m glad that you’re both finding counseling / therapy helpful - I do wonder about whether I should go myself. I find this very hard to deal with.

I like the idea of slipping over the horizon lily - that paints a wonderful picture in my mind! It’s also an eye opener to see the common themes - the health scares that guilt trip us into getting back in touch!

It’s interesting freshstart how seeing the impact the narc has on our own children makes matters somehow clearer, it was the same in my case. It certainly prompted me into action to protect mine.

It was the effect my mother started to have on my own children that made me go nc also.. She constantly criticised them as they grew older, haircuts, clothes, anything at all. We saw less and less of her.

One day she rang me up and ranted at me and said some terrible things, and I told her what an awful mother she had been to me. and that she would not be doing the same to my children. I just put the phone down, and never spoke to her again.

A year later she died, I felt relief, I did not feel sad at all. I didn't know what a narcissist was in those days, but I think she was one in hindsight.

Perhaps part of me hopes that she will see the error of her ways and we’ll have a meaningful relationship.

That sums up just about everything this thread is about for me @chloechloe. Beautifully, and oh so painfully expressed.

As it was Remembrance Sunday we talked quite a lot with DC about family history in relation to who did what in the wars and when grandparents were born (all during WW2), also visited ill MiL, and I thought it might provoke some mention from them about seeing my F but absolutely nothing. I haven't told them I've gone NC (and told him not to send them presents).

I'm in mourning for the childhood I didn't have

Unfortunately this sums up the whole of my adult life. I visited my first therapist aged 27 and he suggested this was why I felt depressed. My current counsellor said last time that she feels a deep sadness in me and I need to find joy in my life. I feel a bit of a fraud carrying it on and on and on, but find it so hard to move past that grief. I am feeling slightly better I think since joining here. Worse at first going NC and re-thinking my childhood with a different view of my F as a narc, but now I'm feeling more positive.

I felt relief, I did not feel sad at all.

When my mother's time comes, Jackie, that's how I will feel. During our year of NC, being parted from Dad (by default - they were a package deal) hurt so much that it caused physical pain. At the same time, I started having flashbacks to my childhood, my teen years, my whole life in fact, and saw it all with a newfound clarity that crippled me emotionally. It was like a row of dominoes falling into place. Even Dad's part in it all (and I loved him because he was the one I ran to as a child for hugs; no point running to her), even his part in mopping up after her and standing by mutely while she indulged in her tantrums, all became clear.

But my pain was all about Dad. I loved him, still do. He loved me. Just not enough. The betrayal hurts. As for M - well, I feel nothing. I have tried, truly. After all, we're supposed to love our mothers, aren't we? Society and convention say so. But try as I might, I just don't feel anything at all.

The day Dad died, I blurted out to DSis that I wished M had been the first to go instead. She went quiet for a moment and then said, "Lily, I've wished that for years".

M has her golden child, my middle sister, fluttering around her now. She's happy, for the time being anyway, and I'm happy to leave the pair of them to crack on with it. They're both cut from the same cloth.

Hi Chloechloe

re your comments in quote marks

"You’re right hero that confrontation is more in the narcissist’s realm. I don’t think it would serve any purpose as it would not cause her to reflect on her own behavior in any way. I also feel it is very final - like it’s very difficult to back track from".

Correct on all three points. Such toxic people like nothing more than a fight and the last word. They are also incapable of reflecting on their own behaviour and are adept at blaming others for their own inherent ills. NC to my mind is protecting your own self from being further abused.

"I dread the day, I guess as many here do, when I hear that she’s (genuinely) very ill".

Not parents here I grant you but this happened to FIL, a man with hardly any social niceties let alone any social discourse. He was a narcissist and when he became terminally ill I felt it was sad that he got struck down by this tumour but beyond that I really felt nothing for him. I went to his funeral service only for my DHs sake.

"I feel that low contact is the better option for me at the moment. Perhaps part of me hopes that she will see the error of her ways and we’ll have a meaningful relationship. But let’s face it that is not going to happen".

Correct. Low contact as well can often lead to no contact.

"I think I may start throwing away some of the things she has gifted me and the children. Like you say, there are just so many reminders around that it would be better to get rid of them".

Start clearing out any and all unwanted items that she has sent you all. If anything is further sent do not return these or acknowledge them in any way. Radio silence from you all should be maintained. Feel free indeed to give those items to a charity shop.

Singing Lily

You may want to write a letter to your father.

Hopefully your mother and her golden child daughter will over time start to tear each other apart. The golden child role is a role certainly not without price either but she that daughter is unaware of that.

Do I miss FIL, no I can say I do not. I also found that writing a hand written letter to FIL (immediately read by me and shredded thereafter) was a cathartic exercise. I filled a page and a half of A4!. I will do the same when MIL and my parents (who really put the un in uninterested) die too.

I think low contact has some benefits over no contact, at least it means you can monitor them and see if they are doing anything that might pose a threat to you?

I am a lot less anxious with NC than LC. But a lot more sadness with NC because no going back, very final. Its the right thing to do, the sadness will always be there but is lessening as time goes on. The anxiety peaked every time I spoke to him, and visits where he could speak to the children had me almost physically shaking by the end. In the end, I will one day get that phone call that he's ill or gone, but I will just have to deal with that when the time comes.

Fresh thinking back, with my mother I think NC was the only option because when I was younger I just wasn't strong enough to stand up to her and she was at her full power (although it still infuriates me that I was intimidated by someone who's as dumb as a rock)
I suppose LC is only going to feel comfortable if you feel you have the person under control?

I didn't know what a narcissist was in those days
It was so much harder back then fazakerleyJackie!
We didn't have a word for it and there was no one to discuss it with, we just had to fly by the seat of our pants and go on instinct 😳🙈😳
Sounds like you had good instincts 😊

Lily ah yes I reflected a lot on my childhood, still do at times. It can be quite shocking, looking back at "little you" and seeing the aching loneliness of it all and the not being shown love. Thing is you don't know as a little child, that it is supposed to be different do you? It is all you know.
I'd say probably I overcompensated with my own (now adult) children. I fuss people, I feed them, and then more, it drives them all bonkers

@Ulterego
Sorry missed your post before I pressed go!
Yes it was so different, the internet has been my saviour as most of this I've self learned. I've met some really lovely people such as yourselves, who " get it" and I think it's helped my mental health to know it was not my fault.

@chloe I totally understand what you are saying, you still have hope but rationally you can see that it's more of a fantasy than a reality. It's so sad that these people can't change. A big part of what therapy has done for me is to make me see things clearly and face the ugly truth of it. I think that when you understand that just because someone was your parent it doesnt necessarily mean they have had your best interests at heart then it kind of makes pulling away from them a bit less painful. It's a yearning though isn't it? for things to have been different.
During therapy we have been discussing my mother, andI am coming to the conclusion that maybe my enabling mother is actually a covert narc herself; replacing my father literally overnight when I was 5 years old, supporting her abusive husband and having no qualms about what happened to me and my brother as long as her needs were fulfilled. My therapist said that my mother seems to have had an ability to sweep people out of her life without a backwards glance if it has suited her agenda. I loved her so much and now feel horrendously betrayed. Did anyone else here have an enabling parent who, upon closer inspection, turned out to have been a bit of a 'wolf in sheep's clothing'? It seems like most people's enabling parents were 'weak' as opposed to malicious or mercenary and I dunno if I'm just over examining things and looking for fault so I can strengthen my resolve over NC with her/them.

Did anyone else here have an enabling parent who, upon closer inspection, turned out to have been a bit of a 'wolf in sheep's clothing'?

I did, Marmaduke. Dad said terrible things to my much younger DSis when she was a child, things I can never forgive him for even though I still love him. He was different with me, treated me more as an ally against M, but even then, he wanted me to act as his shield and take the brunt of her rages so that he could be spared. That's why my love for him is laced with the bitter taste of betrayal.

Whichever way - covert, passive, weak, whatever - the outcome is the same for all of us. The enabling parent knew and hid their faces from it. That's unforgivable and that's why they cannot be trusted. They failed us too.

Thinking over what you suggested, Attila. It's something I need to deal with, once and for all.

Do you think this is abusive or just a parent having occasional bad days and getting to the end of their tether?

Mother being furious with child for getting nits/ needing braces and not speaking to child because of this and generally being very angry.

Mother insisting child had done something wrong (cut own hair) when child hadn't, calling child a liar and angrily forcing a false confession out of the child.

Generally getting very angry at the child for things out of their control. At other times a loving and caring mother.

Marmaduke I think there's a real mix on here in terms of the 'other' parent. I was quite defensive of my DM a few posts/couple of weeks back, and have been thinking about it a lot because certainly she has her faults. I don't view her as an enabler, I wish she'd left him but as I said before its rarely easy for a woman with no financial security to leave a man whose done all he can to knock her self-confidence. I do think incidents in my teen years were... odd... for a better word. I needed to rebel against my dad, desperate for him to notice me, but I think she did a lot to stop him finding out what I was up to (mainly drinking myself into a stupor) and I now wonder if that was healthy. Keeping him out of it entirely I mean. What was she so scared he would do? Perhaps I needed some fatherly discipline at that point. But then he could be a tyrant so I presume she thought it was better if I was allowed to have my fun, that he would go too far. So she would wait up until the early hours when I stumbled in, while he was fast asleep, unaware. However, she wouldn't drive at night so a few times when I really needed her to come and get me (missed the last train from nearby town, etc) she wouldn't come, and wouldn't wake him up either (although he'd have been drinking so....). I'm probably overthinking it though.

CandyCaneLove

All that happened to you as a child?.

I would actually cite all of those examples you gave as abusive towards the child.

Hi CandyCane
The child hasn't done anything wrong though, it's not being naughty to find yourself with nits is it?
So the child is being shouted at, and then ignored, for something the child cannot do anything about. Yes, I'd say it was abusive. My own mother did this to me constantly, I was too thin, my hair was not curly, I had freckles, I had a cold.
At other times a loving and caring mother. In whose eyes though? That of other grown ups, or the child?
You teach a child what is right and wrong with love, you don't punish them, or ignore them, because something has happened to them, that is not in their control. That's when they need to know most that they are loved don't you think?
Are you ok, can we help, would you like to tell us some more?