But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
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Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Yes good luck with the job interview pukeworthy!

Singinglily I second Atilla's comment, that's fantastic that you have your dad's service medals. Good on him for passing them on. Sometimes you have to just celebrate these small acts of resistance.

Sorry I'm not commenting on the big posts today (although hello and welcome, narcdad and Chloe ) I'm halfway through a monster post about My Life, What the Hell Happened and What Do I Do Now? and wondered whether you guys would mind if I stuck it on 30 days only and then linked here, as I would appreciate your wisdom?

Arghh, sorry Jam, that poem has negative associations for you 🙈
I felt very emotional reading it and listening to it.
Thanks for sharing your EMDR experiences, very powerful!
I have a few things that I've earmarked for possible EMDR -ing I've also wondered about doing it for myself for lesser issues in the future when I've got over the difficult things with therapy.
I'm still inclined to see it as belonging in the hypnosis section of the venn diagram though

Yes I'm totally down with that toomuchtoo😊

toomuchtooold, thank you. It was a small act of resistance, wasn't it?

You've been such a steadying influence on these threads over time, despite everything going on in your own life, I say go for it. You know you'd have our support.

@SingingLily fortunately I have mums hair and the wonderful memories of love that she gave me, also my children knew and felt her love, that will always bring me comfort. Dad also cleared out mums things quite soon after. It's so hard to come to terms with how spiteful and hateful

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you for your reply.

Unfortunately no other grandparents alive, my cousin is lovely and will not tolerate my dad, he always thought she was "up herself". She has gone nc with my dad as is aware of what he is, I'm still coming to terms with it.

I've blocked his number and using the website out of the fog, feel unsettled and raw by finally realising it wasn't all me!

Thanks for the vibes everyone, i think i performed well but it was a strange interview with questions far above the role. Not sure what i think!

They really do just tick the box and move on, don't they, Narcdad? No looking back for them at all. I'd give a great deal to have one more day with my Dad, flaws and all. I'd give just as much not to have one more day with M. That's why I totally understand why you felt so angry that you lost your Mum rather than him.

Apparently, they can make jewellery from hair. Is that something that might bring you some comfort? Just a thought.

And in terms of feeling unsettled and raw, please take some comfort in the fact that this means you are a normal, decent, caring and loving person despite the crappy years he inflicted on you and on your Mum. You take after her, not him. 💐

Ulter, it is beautiful, no negativity at all, just a realisation that mum is really sick as she can't see how she so fails to meet the brief for motherhood that she herself sent me!

Well done Puke! When do you hear?

Toomuch, looking forward to it. You write so beautifully.

My mum is seeing my therapist tomorrow. My therapist can't treat her while she's treating me but she didn't want to turn down a request for help flat, so they'll have a preliminary chat. Must be rare for a narc to send herself to therapy! What's the catch? Hmmm.

@SingingLily I didn't realise they could do it with hair so I'll investigate that, thank you.

to everyone who has been robbed of a childhood due to toxic parents.

Hi jamdhanihash

Re your comment:-
"My mum is seeing my therapist tomorrow. My therapist can't treat her while she's treating me but she didn't want to turn down a request for help flat, so they'll have a preliminary chat. Must be rare for a narc to send herself to therapy! What's the catch? Hmmm".

Red flags a plenty here.

There should be no such "preliminary chat"; some narcissists can be extremely good at manipulating people generally and this person needs to be cautious. Its certainly not a request for help from your mother. I also wonder how much experience this therapist actually has in dealing with narcissists. She could well be doing this to sound out this person and find out more about your dealings with them.

Hmmm what is the catch indeed. I think you're being set up by your mother for her to do something truly nasty to you. Why now and why this therapist you are seeing too?. One of your supposed safe means of support. Honestly I would cancel any and all future appointments with this current therapist and now see someone else. Do not tell your mother and further adopt a grey rock position with a view to ultimately have nothing more whatsoever to do with her. It is really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

It’s an extraordinary conflict of interest. Therapists just shouldn’t do that.

My mum is seeing my therapist tomorrow
presume your mother see's the therapist as a threat to her, after all the therapist is your ally Jam
my guess is that she's going in order to scope her out/try and get her onside/declare that she hasnt got a clue.
As Attila says your therapist is your safe place, so this is your mother invading and trying to conquer your safe territory?

Really surprised. DD2 sees a counsellor for anxiety and panic attacks (started 6 mnths ago just before Y6 SATS tests and continued with move up to secondary school, but getting slowly better) and I asked if I could see her seperately for my own issues; it was a point blank 'no', she wouldn't be able to work with me as well, and recommended a couple of others I might want to contact instead. I would be suspicious as well, and feel it had tainted my relationship with the councellor just by her now being able to picture your M, if that makes sense. Sorry, this probably isn't making you feel very good.

Thanks for all of your wise words of advice hero, Attila, lily and freshstart. It’s reassuring to know that there are other people going through similar and that I am in fact justified in phrasing her out of my life.

Several of you asked about my dad. We actually have a good relationship. I’m lucky in a way that my parents are separated and I live abroad, which means that I can continue the relationship with DF and avoid my mother without any difficulty. My parents weren’t happy in their marriage but stayed under one roof for a long time rather than separate. My M did a good job at the time of trying to turn me against my DF. I think my M felt she made a mistake in marrying and having children fairly young. She likes to make out that she was starting a high flying career but then had to give it up to look after me and my brother. So I think it irritates her immensely to see that I have a good career, a happy marriage and children. Of course, we have our struggles like everybody else, but from the outside our life does look very rosy. As a child my M did seem to take huge pride in me and the fact that I was a high achiever. But since I’ve become a grown up it’s as if she’s become jealous of me for what I’ve achieved. This makes me sound very big headed, I’m really not that kind of person I promise!

You’re right attila in saying that no good will come for me or my children for having her in my life. I just feel that it seems so unusual and socially unacceptable to not speak to your mother, that it will likely only reflect badly on me - what kind of awful daughter am I? Her last visit really was an eye opener for me as I saw her for what she was through my 4 yo daughter’s eyes who was entirely puzzled by her behavior. It was one thing for me to be exposed to it as a child and an adult, but I am not going to let my own children be a witness to it. I want them to grow up surrounded by functional and loving relationships.

I still get guilt tripped into keeping some contact though- my M is forever sending excessive amounts of presents for the grandchildren. I really hate it, not least because I like to live quite a minimal lifestyle and hate having all this stuff. At some point I think I will ask her to stop sending it. I feel like I need to take it in baby steps though - going NC all at once just seems like such a huge leap.

That leads me to ask a question of those on the thread - how did you go about going NC - did you just stop contacting and replying to them without any explanation? Or did you communicate it to them?

I will do some reading up as you suggest freshstart and hero - just finding out that there is such a thing as narcissistic toxic parents is such an eye opener to me!

You reference to receiving a text Hoover made me smile ulta - well done for deleting it. My M’s classic move when I go silent is to text me about some unspecified health emergencies that she’s been through!

Finally narcdad - I’m so sorry to hear about the loss of your mother, that must have been a terrible shock. Your father sounds truly awful. As you see I’m new to this thread myself but you’re certainly in the right place for good advice.

Mum is up to something I suspect but maybe not. She's a very strange person. She didn't argue when I said I thought she was a narc.

The therapist won't be treating her during my therapy. It was my idea that mum see the therapist, but it is weird they're talking while I'm being treated. If there is any chance at all that my mum can get well by examining why she is fucked up, I'll take it. She's a very physically and mentally sick woman.

I'm nearing the end of my sessions, she's only seeing my therapist once during this time, Mum and I are almost NC at the moment.

I think my therapist thinks she can manage the conflict. I wonder whether I should have kept my mouth shut.

Still sitting with you all and a warm hello to those joining.
Struggling a little to add to the excellent advice and support on these threads, but they make such a difference to not be alone.

She knows too much about you @jamdhanihash to be able to do any meaningful work for your mother. She may be committing the cardinal sin of the therapist of letting her personal curiosity lead her. I’m glad you’re concluding your relationship with her soon, for your sake.

@chloechloe there’s various ideas about going NC. The main one is that it’s not intended as a punishment for the narcissist, it’s a protection for yourself. You can confront them, and tell them, but that’s quite dramatic and more in their realm of behaviour. You can just ignore them if you like.

Don’t give the presents and cards any importance. Throw them away unopened, or return with ‘not wanted’ in them. Whenever I see anything my parents gave me it just gives me painful thoughts, so I’ve got rid of lots of things. It’s helpful not be reminded of bad times or guilt.

You’re putting yourself first now, losing the fear, obligation and guilt in all it’s forms.

@narcdad45 sorry you lost your mum and we're left with that sorry assed piece of shit in your life. I'm not surprised you are feeling all over the place; you are grieving, you will be frustrated and angry too with his shenanigans with his 'mystery' offspring and his weasling his way in with your aunt (what is his game there?!). There's no quick fix I think unfortunately but I can totally recommend psychoanalytical therapy; it costs a bit but it's been money so well spent for me. And read up on narcissism, go on out of the fog website etc, 'know your enemy' !

narcdad45 I am so, so sorry for your loss. It has been made even more awful by the frankly disgusting behaviour of your dad. I hope you have some real life support and hope you can access some counselling.

Jam what the actual..? I can hardly even cope with the idea of my counsellor seeing other clients, let alone a parent! It seems to go against all sorts of counselling rules?

Toomuchtooold I found your thoughts incredibly insightful and reading them has made me realise how much it's all connected! Childhoods, school, relationships, work... You describe the links and roots of it all amazingly well. Made me have many little epiphanies myself!!

Chloechloe it's not you and you're not overreacting. Lots of good advice already given but just wanted to share my experience of going NC in case it's helpful to you. I also live in a different country from my toxic parent, in my case, it's my father. Narcissistic, uninvolved, obsessed with himself, cruel when called out on not being around most of my life. The distance does end up being helpful for going NC. Funnily enough (well, very sadly and painfully actually) my wedding also brought things to a head. He behaved so badly in the run up that I uninvited him. Even though it was predictably disappointing I was very very upset for more than a year afterwards. My counsellor said there's further to fall when your expectations are higher, which is inevitable with that kind of event. It was clarifying to me too though - I realised he couldn't actually hold some consideration for me as a separate and valuable person for even ONE day. At first I did reply to emails as you are - politely and vaguely. Eventually I just stopped replying - faded out. It took him a while to notice. He got angry and sent a lot of 'baiting' or I guess hoovering emails and every time I would agonise over them and spend ages coming up with replies - but I never sent them. Gradually he contacted me less and less. I felt strongest about it all when I was pregnant. I just knew that he was not good for my mental health. I would still have major guilt sometimes but I noticed that the less I heard from him, the less I thought about it all, and I gradually felt so much happier. As I mentioned up thread he visited recently and I didn't meet up. I wobbled a bit but posters here kept me right! So - just to say, I understand constantly thinking about it all. It gets easier. Be really really kind to yourself. It's really hard going against the society 'rules' but some friends will get it, and that's so refreshing. With my F's recent visit I started waking in the night again thinking 'oh my god I am NC with one of parents that is so awful!' but it is fading a lot now and I'm so glad I stayed out of the endless tortuous loop of trying to solve that puzzle as it is unsolvable. I have also found counselling very very valuable.

Good luck pukeworthy!!!

Sorry not to mention others, I have read everyone's posts and wish all of you a way through all this which helps you and I really appreciate all the replies and advice.

@chloechloe I recently decided to go NC and I sent a text message telling them. I kept it to the point and as emotionless as possible. It just felt like it was the right thing for me to do for myself as I didn't like the ambiguity of things left hanging. It's been a long time coming and we live in the same village so I wanted to tell them so that if I bump into them they know not to bother speaking to me. It did get a reaction like, they ignored everything I'd said in the statement and just banged on about how I have been stopping them from seeing their grandchildren. Total DARVO and further confirmation I am better off without them. I think it depends what you are comfort with. Are you sure you are done? Would that make you anxious if you tell them you've had enough? Or would you feel a bit of relief drawing a line under the relationship (as in my case). Some people feel better being really really low contact. If you do issue some sort of statement are you prepared for a reaction? Do you ha e a plan, like would you read a response if they sent you one, etc. They are just things that I thought about prior to sending the message. I talked to my therapist about it too which helped. So maybe chuck a few ideas out here? I'm sure you will get some good advice/perspectives xx

Hi, fazakerleyjackie, sit with us as long as you like. It's OK if you just want to sit quietly for a bit. You are welcome here.

Thank you for all the support. @MarmadukeM I've also gone NC although he doesn't know it yet! I've blocked his number and trying to avoid aunt who is his flying monkey 🐒

@OneTwoTree the damage these narcissist parents cause is like no other physical pain I know, I think I'm mourning for the childhood I didn't have. This thread is such a support and the Out if the Fog website has me up till early hours last night!

Finally beginning to accept that he controlled me all my life, now I'm fighting to get free and it hurts as I'm now starting to get my head around the fact that his behaviour is as abuse.

Chloechloe, my mother decided to send me to Coventry for a month. I never knew the reason. It was something she used as the ultimate sanction; punish us by banishing us from her presence until we were suitably chastened. The trouble was, Coventry was a pretty good place to be and when it was time for me to seek forgiveness (still without knowing what I was supposed to have done), I decided to stay where I was. She then engineered two dramatic health scares to summon me back but I didn't respond.

We were NC for a year. I only went back because Dad was admitted to hospital and died soon after. Now I'm detaching myself from her again slowly. No visits, one duty phone call every ten days or so, now. She only talks about herself, never asks me how I am. That's par for the course, but that's OK because I'm doing the grey rock thing. She thinks I'm incredibly boring. I'm gradually slipping over the horizon and soon I'll have disappeared altogether. No fuss.

It's easier this time. I'm in a much better place than I was fifteen months ago, stronger. The support from everyone on this thread has been incredible. You'll find the right way for you when you are ready. 💐