But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Cherrycee I didn't think it seemed silly. Its not the easiest when you're in a slightly different place than everyone else around you. Took us over two years to get pregnant while friends seemed to be falling without even trying, and it was tough. Anyway I'm glad your DP can be romantic and is sensitive to your feelings, he sounds like a keeper!

DH and I had a marriage of convenience He needed a visa to stay in the UK and the only way to get it was to get married. I think it's fair to say it brought the marriage decision forward a couple of years...

Cherrycee don't worry about "scaring him away" - after two years together it's entirely appropriate to be thinking about the future, particularly in your 30s.
Maybe this is just me but in case it rings a bell with any of the rest of you. I got into my first relationship really young. I was desperate for love, not having found much at home. I carried with me the experience of having tried very hard not to piss off my mother, so that I got the nice, normal mum and not the crazy angry one, and I think this trained me to expect that love was something that you got (in small doses) as a reward for conforming to someone else's expectations.

I was also aware - having had a couple of people break up with me partly because I came on too strong - that most people I knew were much better able to cope with being alone than I was. I came to the sort of fairly healthy idea that I needed not to sort of share that massive inner well of loneliness with someone I'd been out with twice, that I needed to be a bit more boundaried about how I shared my feelings, like I was talking about the other day.

But then I unhealthily smooshed the two ideas together into "if someone is not that into me, I just need to be patient and pretend only to be as into them as they are into me and eventually, like two binary stars on the far edges of each other's influence of gravity, we will be pulled together into each other and then they will never be able to get away from me." And I kind of knew it was unhealthy; I did this number on myself where I would try and convince myself that whatever they wanted out of the relationship was what I wanted too; whereas I don't know what I really did want. I wanted a sense of security like you Cherrycee - I was doing a PhD at the time and I was skint and I didn't know if I was going to be able to get a job in my field and whether my research would pan out, and so I was looking for security in relationships, when looking back even at the time, I didn't want to be spending weekends picking furniture with any of the nutters I was going out with, even if that had been something they were up for. What I should have been doing was training for a job with better security and a more predictable day to day than science research, getting my own flat (another massive source of stress for me was flatmates, I hated sharing a house, I just wanted to be able to lock my own door) and picking my own damned furniture. But my home life had not exactly taught me to value my own wants and needs, and I filled in the gap with taking on the expectations and the value system open to me at school and university, which, added to my working class background and lack of any clue about which professions were most secure in terms of demand for your labour - I ended up in research. And then as that was not fulfilling any of my needs, I didn't do what healthy people do and change tack, I just hunkered down (as I had as a child, I was used to suffering through, not walking away) and tried to fill my need for security with relationships, and when that didn't hit the spot, with food and alcohol.
I had a bit of an epiphany in my final year (I got sent on this pre-graduation careers course that they used to do for final year PhDs, it was the first time in my life anyone ever sat down with me and went "what are you good at, what do you like doing") and I came back and turned down the postdoc I'd been lining up, had a talk with my supervisor about how much I needed to get finished before I could leave, and started applying for local jobs that I actually liked. I also met my other half about a week after that I sometimes wish I hadn't, or that it had happened a bit later - I feel like I had got a fair bit of recovery by then, stopped drinking so much, I'd gained a bit of distance from some very unhealthy "friendships" and got more comfortable with being alone - but I definitely took that guilty, people pleasing attitude into my marriage and when I look back on the first 10 years I think I should have been a lot more selfish in terms of career decisions. My DH is very much the flight response type, he made career decisions that were very reactive and I ended up following him each time - I should have challenged him and I did try but I wasn't convinced I was entitled to put my career ahead of his feelings of insecurity, and as I had made a career change and had an extended maternity leave, I was earning a lot less than him, and then he got ade redundant in the UK and got turned down by a couple of London firms and nothing would do but that he was going back to Switzerland to find a job there, which he did, and I followed him, because we - let's be honest, I - had two and a half year old twins and I didn't want to be a single mum whose coparent turns up one weekend out of two. There was no family help to rely on, I'd have been on my own with twins in London and I wasn't up for that.
I managed to score a job in Zurich when we first went over but the boss was an absolute nutter and the company was going through restructuring and as well as the working atmosphere being awful, it was also clear that my job was going to be transferred to eastern Europe fairly soon, and as the kids were not all that happy in their new nursery, I chucked it in after three months and went back to SAHing. And here I have remained for the last 4 years. My old career is dead in the water - the branch of banking I worked in in the UK is not open to me here, I'd need more qualifications and it was extremely competitive to get into in the UK, they're not going to want me here 10 years older in my second language - and as the kids are still in half day school, there's a pretty heavy limitation on what jobs I could get anyway, unless I was to get childcare, which would be not great because the kids need a bit of bilingual support with homework and stuff, and DD2 has speech therapy, and they both have a bunch of afternoon-only hobbies that all the working mums get their mothers to take the kids to... I don't know. In the next couple of years they'll go to full day school and then I'll have more time, and I should try and figure out what I want to do then. For myself what I want to do is go back to the UK. I hate living abroad; I mean it's lovely here but I struggle with the language, I can speak it fairly well, but I lack that lifelong training in knowing just the right thing to say, I miss jokes, I mistake tone. I find that I can't read people as well as I can in English, and I find (I suspect because of my shitty upbringing) that when I don't know what people are thinking, I assume they're unfriendly, and so life feels pretty bruising in the day to day.
It's the thing I feel angriest about in my life; that I feel like I got the insight about all this stuff basically at the point where there was nothing I could do with it. I went NC with my mother about two months after I chucked in my job - she came over to "help" with us moving from the flat the relocation company had found us to the house we were buying. It was a really stressful week for us and as you can imagine she had a field day making it that much worse. At the end of it I said goodbye at the airport thinking "I'm never going to see you again." Then the kids were sat watching Tangled in the car I think, and I'm listening to it, and I thought, my god, that's my mother... I googled "why is my mother like Mother Gothel from Tangled" and found a definition of narcissistic personality disorder and from that, codependence, and it was like this massive wall of ignorance just coming crumbling down around me on all sides. From one week to the next I had a completely different view on basically every major life decision I'd ever made - every sacrifice I'd made, every time I'd acted out of toxic guilt, every bullying boss I'd ever listened to, every time I'd heeded the nastiest criticism of people about whom I'd never thought to ask myself: does this person have your interests at heart?" And there was not a fucking thing I could do with any of this knowledge because I had left my job and my bullying boss (and the job before that, and the boss at that job) and I didn't see any friends any more, good ones or bad ones... the only implication the realisation had for me was to know that I was probably in quite a lot of danger of perpetuating the cycle of abuse with my own children unless I sorted my head out, so I started counselling and also recalled that there was this thread on Mumsnet...

Anyway I started that wanting to say something about relationships which is, as you probably all know - at the end of the day, you want what you want, they want what they want, and if those things aren't compatible you might as well find out sooner than later, because otherwise you're going to spend lots of time trying to squish down your own wants and needs and then get dumped when you once fail to do that, or even worse you'll succeed and then you'll end up contracting to fit the small box you've given yourself to live in. Do you know what I mean? I feel like I have scored a very middling sort of B minus in all of that, and I feel too knackered and too disillusioned to start trying to build up from where I am. I don't even trust myself that I would do the right thing.

💐 @toomuchtooold your lightbulb moment is amazing. I know it’s a cliche but thank you for sharing, you have such a lot of personal insight.

Toomuchtooold, I have wondered for some time how you have managed to amass so much wisdom and insight and how you always seem to be able to go to the heart of the matter when you respond to posts on here. Now I know. It's hard-won, all of it. 💐

Hi everyone, hope you are all ok. I hope you don't mind me having a moan. I've been pretty much no contact with my parents now for over a month and I've really struggled with it. I've told 4 close friends I'm struggling and not in a good place and not one of them have even asked how I am. Obviously I'm not meaning I want people to run after me but just one 'how are you?' would be nice. Im not meaning to sound my own trumpet but whenever they've gone through a rough time I've been there for them, yet now I'm going through one of the worst times in my life and none of them can even ask how I am. I've had one of them moan to me about man troubles and not even acknowledge my situation, it just makes me feel all the more alone and like nobody cares.

You can use this thread as a safe space to vent or as a sounding board to write as little or as much as you want.

It seems to me that you are very much still struggling with your feelings of FOG re your parents - fear, obligation and guilt. Am I right?.

It sounds like these four people are fair weather friends and do not see beyond the end of their nose. Also many people "nice" and importantly, emotionally healthy, families so the sort of dysfunction you are talking about is unknown to them so cannot at all relate to it. They probably would also be the sort who say, "well you only have one mother" and some such tripe.

Do write on here; people on this part of the thread really do understand.

toomuchtooold

My admiration for you has further increased . You are a very insightful person.

Cherrycee

You may also want to look at the Freedom Programme run by Womens Aid in respect of the ill treatment you received at the hands of your ex. Men like that can certainly further damage already perhaps weakened boundaries. The Freedom Programme could help you move forward and on from that.

Re your comment:-
"Anyway, all is good and I don't seem to have scared him away yet!"
Do not do yourself down like this, that is a further example of your insecurity. Please address now this through counselling or WA as needed because such will continue to try and bite you if you allow this any headspace. As toomuch stated as well after two years together it's entirely appropriate to be thinking about the future, particularly in your 30s. (Mr AttilatheMeerkat and I were married 18 months after meeting each other).

If he does want to get married in the future then how about you and he set a date within the next year or so?. Talk about this subject to each other, you're both adults and such decisions can and should be made jointly.

I think your idea of a civil ceremony followed by a lunch afterwards sounds fab!!.

@FrazzledMummy123 I have told one friend and my DH about going NC with my F. I know its the right thing to do but I don't expect others to know what to say or understand why I would feel that way. The one friend has a F much 'worse' than mine, and her M difficult as well, so we've talked before. In fact she'd asked if I'd considered narc as she thought it sounded like my F, and I looked it up the night of my 'last straw' incident, light bulb moment. I have completely mind dumped on here over the last 2 or 3 weeks, plus started reading (outofthefog, Toxic Parents) and I'm starting to feel slightly better. I've felt incredibly sad over the last 4 months but strangely less depressed, if that make sense... like I finally understand why I feel so sad and I need to go through this grief process, but I feel more positive about the future. What you don't need right now is people telling you its the wrong thing to do, because noone takes making this decision lightly.

@FrazzledMummy123 I just re-read your post and mine, and I don't want you to think that I'm criticising you for telling your friends, that's not what I meant. And yes, you're right, they should ask you how you are. I just meant that not many people can relate to how toxic some parents can be if they've not experienced it themselves, and so it might have made them feel uncomfortable so they're not broaching the subject again. Or they're assuming its just a 'normal' tiff with your parents that'll blow over. Perhaps they are fair weather friends, but that doesn't mean they're bad friends. Is there one of them that you feel closer to than the others perhaps?

@toomuchtooold You need to have the conversation that you're not happy now and put a time limit on living abroad, i.e. 1 year from now and if you're still not happy then you as a family will look at moving back to the UK within 6 months from then. If your DH is doing well then he will not have a problem finding another job. Or he 'commutes', spending weekdays there and weekends and holidays with his family. It is not impossible. It sounds like it is, but its not. You deserve to live where you feel comfortable, and SAH doesn't mean putting up with whatever suits the employed parent, you are still working by doing the childcare. Negotiate your terms.

FreshStart01 no it's ok, I didn't think you were criticising me at all, I get what you are saying. The friends I've told don't have the same relationship with their parents as me so don't really understand. I think what's bothered me the most is I've openly said how down I am about it and have even said I'm struggling, I just feel even one message to show they care would be nice. However that might be because they don't know what to say. I'm not sure.

AttilaTheMeerkat, yes the feelings of fear, obligation, and guilt are very much with me just now and I'm struggling with them. These four friends are close friends who
I considered good friends and one of them in particular i am closer to and I've helped her though some pretty heavy stuff (nothing relating to toxic parents though) and I feel a little hurt and let down that she has barely contacted me.

You are right, I'd probably just get something like 'you only get one mother' said to me. People just don't get it unless they've experienced it.

It's hard to explain if it's a lifetime's accumulation of what seems to be tiny digs and criticisms and "helpfulness" that's anything but. Taken individually, each tiny act could well seem like "much ado about nothing" to anyone from a normal family, but it's death by a thousand cuts to those of us who have had to live with it from childhood.

The problem with emotional abuse is that there are no visible bruises or scars. Nothing tangible you could point to as evidence. The wounds and scars are invisible but it's abuse just the same.

@Frazzledmummy123 I understand this feeling you’re having, I’m betting you’ve minimised your need for comfort and understanding from people so much everyone thinks you’re fine, such a great listener, always helpful. They’ve heard you say ‘I’m not great at the moment’ but they kind of don’t get it, because you’ve never said anything like it before?

Your friends are so used to being listened to by you they’ve forgotten it needs to be both ways. Also making yourself vulnerable is really hard, you’ve done a difficult thing, but keep going, keep saying you’re not ok, your needs are really important!

@SingingLily That's exactly how I feel re death by a thousand cuts and paranoia that people from families that resemble anything like vaguely normal will not understand. Sometimes I even start wondering if I HAVE over-reacted but then I start thinking again about all the sarcastic comments, subtle put-me-downs and just general negativity that's accumulated over the whole of my life and I remember why its had to come to this for my own mental health and my family.

That's why this thread helps so much, FreshStart, to be able to say how we feel or say what happened today and everyone gets it. It's the only place where I don't feel as though I'm speaking Martian sometimes. So, vent away on here as much as you want, as often as you want. That's what it's here for.

you only get one mother
and praise the lord for that, imagine if we had to wrestle with whole teams of them!!

Hello toomuch - I do often wonder how you are, and I agree with everything SingingLily said about your post. from me too.

It must be scary thinking of returning to the UK, even though you know you'd be happier, because being in another country might have initially symbolised escape (from your family) to you, so going back could be the opposite.

It does sound to me as though you are prioritising the needs of your DH and your DC even now. And there is a time and a place to do that, but there should be balance in these things and if it's never your turn to say what your needs are, that's not balance.

Personally, I don't think I'd settle for a B-. It could too easily slip down to a C+. I think I'd want at least a B.

Oh dear, i was weak and picked up the phone and answered questions.

Immediately patronising. 'Shouldnt be applying for such lucrative jobs'. Yeah? Well they interviewdd me AFTER knowing my salary expectations, so.... It was a hard NO on meeting up tomorrow.

At least i got a chuckle when my ex husband, who just weeks ago was professing undying love to me, said he was off on a date!!!

He has his good points but im glad ive learnt not to trust a word he says now!

@Pukeworthy Aaaaaahhhhh!!! I don't know what else to say. My F could never understand why my company 'allowed' me to work from home, as clearly I should not be trusted to do so, I was 'getting away with it' and I was 'very lucky'. Well I do appreciate the flexiblity but perhaps they actually value my skills and perhaps I've earnt their trust through hard work and dedication. I still suffer badly with imposter syndrome though - I wonder why.

@Pukeworthy Glad you can laugh at ex-H!

I'm a bit behind on the thread today but thanks everyone for your support and suggestions. I am feeling much better today but will mention it in counselling this week.

toomuchtooold I agree with PPs, you have a remarkable level of insight and understanding. I hope you can make the move back soon, your happiness is as important as your husband's.

I find it hard talking to friends about this stuff too. I bottled it up and pretended everything was fine for a long time, so then when I went the opposite way and decided to be open about the past, they couldn't understand it. One friend is very empathetic even though she hasn't experienced this stuff herself, but most of the others seem to get uncomfortable talking about it.

I used to work with a woman who had a difficult childhood and she would put it all out there, unfiltered. I got on really well with her but I know most people in that workplace thought she was weird and avoided her, which is a real shame. She definitely had her quirks but was one of the most genuine people I ever met.

My F could never understand why my company 'allowed' me to work from home, as clearly I should not be trusted to do so, I was 'getting away with it' and I was 'very lucky'

Sounds like intense jealousy to me!