But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

The therapist who tells you to find positivity and banish negativity if you grew up with a parent who snarled at you to ‘take that miserable look off your face’ is just reinforcing the damage in my view. oddly enough I experienced my union rep doing something a bit like this, this week. I have severe AD which they know, they fixed one thing from a big picture at work and when I wasn't cheerful about this, they kind of yelled at me (very forceful telling, rather shouting). It upset me, but I still don't know whether they were right or wrong. I think if this is your background it's hard to trust your own judgements or anyone else's, it's not just therapists - anyone who is supposed to support you, who does this, creates an extra confusing situation. Do they have your back /best interests in mind, or should you challenge it (at the risk of losing some of the only support you have)?

Just popping in.

My DM has been ramping up her difficult behaviour lately as Ive been making a concious effort to stand up to her. Im never rude or agressive, but always firm. Its like I've suddenly found my voice and she hates it. She actually said recently that she is 'scared of opening her mouth' because I jump on anything she says. The fact is that 90 perfect of what she says is toxic and unkind, she's just no used to me or anyone else taking her to ask over it. I assume her react.on is normal, and im expecting it to get worse. I just want her to understand its not ok to treat me like shit just so she can feel better about herself. Thats why I think its all about, her own self esteem is so bad that she needs to use me to make herself feel better.

She doesn't seem to understand the mother and daughter relationships, probably because her relationship with her own mother was so poor. But hey ho, that's not my problem is it.

Bizarely I feel very emoldened all of a sudden!

Quick question, any book recommendations about codependency, asking the lines of pitfalls you might fall into as an adult, that serve to push people away (without you realising what you are doing) - beyond the books about boundaries I mean? (though i am still working through a list of downloads), Practical advice.

she is 'scared of opening her mouth
Nice work ManonBlack:o
If you keep it up other people may start to mirror your behaviour and she'll have to mind her Ps and Qs all the time.
Make sure you keep it up, she will have to back down, if she complains ask her exactly what it is she's unhappy about, examine her case with her firmly but fairly and she will have to agree with you, if you can stay firm while allowing her to back down and save face you might be able to get her under control.
Always keep her on a short leash though

@ManonBlackbeak I salute your efforts but don’t underestimate the emotional impact it will have on you, make sure you have a way of dealing with the stress.

Do you think you can help her? Do you feel you can eventually have a bearable relationship?
Are you thinking she might get some therapeutic help?

I hope someone comes along with a rec @myfavouritetain, but I think you can find your own boundaries for relationships in time. Maybe don’t make another person’s checklist your guide, they don’t know you. Think about the things that make you feel unsafe, and when you’re asked to make a compromise that’s difficult for you. Just pause and think, is this good for me? The hard part is deciding what you’re going to do about it.

Myfavouriterain I found Codependency for Dummies, by Darlene Lancer, really helpful.

(Hero is right Manon, I got carried away with the whip crackin' vengefulness)

I could help her if she would take on board the criticisms of her behaviour and realise how it effects others. Problem is she is so so senstive to any form of criticism, and reacts with defense and sometimes even anger.

She could really do with some counselling but I don't think she'd even entertain the suggestion.

I promise I won't get to carried away. I only pull her up when she is unkind and attempts to control everything.

Thank you

@Ulterego don’t think that my heart is not sometimes blackened with revenge fantasies. I’m most definitely capable of awful thoughts.

And knowing what you have gone through I don’t think anyone would blame you for your feelings - if you can’t express it here then where can you?

Hi everyone. I didnt get the job i interviewed for and there was a lot riding on it, so i've been in what i'm calling 'turtle mode', not wanting to talk to anyone. In mum's case, it's been strangely freeing! I have always told her everything to keep her up to date bevause thats what daughters do isnt it? So i've had that urge over this, and felt sad i cant/dont want to, but then rememberes her knack for making me feel like shit over these things and actually, the end result is relief, peace!

I managed to completely deflect her anger about me shutting her out by not giving any reasons, just explaining I dont feel like talking.

Good morning, Pukeworthy, I'm sorry about the job.

It sounds like the corners of your mind have worked out that the last thing you need is the usual brand of cold comfort from your mother and opted for peace and quiet instead. I'd say that's progress!

Turtle mode is a great expression - I might pinch that from you, if you don't mind

No problem!

Sorry to here that Pukeworthy. Hope you're okay.

*hear that. Really should re-read and focus before posting!

Sorry to hear you did not get the job Pukeworthy.

There are other opportunities out there. One of those is right and or the right fit for you. You're a smart cookie

Sorry puke x

I don't feel like talking
is a great phrase to use, it contains within it the following messages:
1-I can choose whether or not to discuss something with you
2-if I don't feel like doing something I won't do it
3-shut your face and go away
4-it's none of your bloody business
5-oi, back off
And probably several more 🤭

it occurs to me that in respect of my parents I have not moved on much from where I was at 15, I don't like them I don't trust them and I don't tell them anything 🤭
Therapy is now back on for me I have secured an appointment for a couple of weeks time😊

Sorry to hear that puke

I'm having a really bad weekend, and feeling guilty about it because I want to be happy for my friends and not be a miserable, jealous person.

Growing up with the insecurity I had made me really want my own security. I wanted to fall in love and get married, maybe have kids, and buy a house. My parents made reckless decisions which resulted in them losing the family home when I was about 7. So we hopped from one rented place to another and I craved a home of my own.

I spent most of my twenties with a man I thought I would marry, but instead after 7 years he dumped me. He already had his own house and I was saving so we would be able to move sonewhere that was 'ours'. Obviously that didn't happen. When we broke up the housing market had gone nuts and there was no possibility of me buying alone (I did try).

Relationship wise, about two years after my ex I met an amazing new DP and we've been together three and a half years. I know he loves me (unlike the ex) and I want to be with him for the rest of my life. However, marriage doesn't seem to be something he's all that fussed about.

Last weekend my friend got engaged to a guy she was seeing for less than a year. I'm genuinely happy for her but it stings a bit. I'm fast approaching my late 30s and all my other friends (bar one who is single by choice) are either married or engaged.

I feel like I missed out in my childhood, and now I feel like I'm being left behind again. The things I so desperately want, in order to create a safe, secure, happy life for myself, feel so out of reach while they come to my friends so easily.

My work situation is not great at the moment (partly due to my depression) so it doesn't look like anything will change in the near future.

I know I'm wallowing in self pity but I can't help it, I feel so low. I know I have a wonderful DP but I don't want to have to convince him to marry me, I want him to want it. I was here before with my ex and I can't help wondering why nobody loves me enough to commit to me.

It's great to have this thread as I feel like I can't say this to anyone in real life.

you have every right to 'wallow' as much as you want to Cherry, and of course it stings when your friends are able to secure those things for themselves😕
(((Hugs)))
can you have a conversation with your partner about how he sees the future for you both?

Thanks again everyone for the kindness

@AttilaTheMeerkat I do have diagnosed dissociative episodes- my formal diagnosis is either BPD or complexPTSD depending on what doctor and what day of the week it is!

Sorry to hear you didn't get the job @Pukeworthy I'm sure something better will come along soon x

@Ulterego if I say that my mum would get upset and say why am I being mean etc..

I can really relate to what you say about not having things other people seem to find easy @Cherrycee I agree with PP though, perhaps he's just not very romantic and needs to have the idea waved in front of him!

Purple your mum may frame it as you being mean but you dont have to accept her evaluation, you could (for instance) ask her why she feels it's a mean thing to say?

Wallow away cherry - all i'd say is that marriage doesnt always = security! My marriage started out perfect but pretty comprehensively shitted up my life!

@Cherrycee I never had a proposal and I'll admit that I still feel a little bit disapointed, but I think you have to put it into perspective. My DH had been engaged before but he was young and pushed into a romantic gesture that he had no intention of following through with, so I think part of it for him was not making that mistake again; also we'd been together a while (already bought a house and trying for a baby) so he didn't paricularly see it as necessary; and finally he dreaded a wedding day because being the centre of attention really wasn't for him. In the end I forced the issue and we got married but without any engagement, we just decided on a date and venue and sent out the invites 6 weeks beforehand - a fairly small do, just a civil ceremony followed by lunch with family and friends. We were very much friends first, romance came later, and there is chemistry but for me I would say its the friendship and having my back that I value over and above romance. That does mean that I have had real and long lows where I've felt strongly that I made a huge mistake and should have waited for someone who I was truely, madly, deeply in love with to sweep me off my feet because that's what's happening in everyone elses lives, right? The problem with social media, and our preoccupation with famous people's relationships? And what we see in the movies, read in a good romantic novel, etc.? NONE OF THAT IS REALITY. But we had a crap reality growing up to base our expectations on, so we perhaps even more than the average person really need that idea of a perfect marriage and family following some great romance being the norm. I absolutely think you should have 'the talk' with your DP but the reality is that marriage and kids can be pretty mundane a lot of the time, so if you can stay mates, have a shared sense of humour and have each others back when things get tough then that will outweigh the distant memory of never getting that 'unexpected' romantic proposal.

Thanks everyone. I actually feel a bit silly now reading my post back, I think I just had a knee jerk reaction and getting it out of my system helped put it in perspective.

My DP actually is quite romantic and I know he loves me and wants to be with me - I think being strung along by my ex for years and then being dumped out of the blue has made me a bit sensitive about this stuff. Even though I know my DP is, thankfully, nothing like my ex. We did have a talk earlier as he sensed something was up and he said he definitely wants to get married in the near future and he would never string me along. He felt bad that he hadn't talked about this stuff enough and that it lead to me feeling this way, but to be fair it's not him, it's me feeling insecure. Anyway, all is good and I don't seem to have scared him away yet!

Small civil wedding with a lunch after sounds perfect to me FreshStart, I'm sure that's the direction we'll go down when the time comes.