But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Ulterego I hadn't really thought about it like that but I do self sabotage a lot. Usually get away with it by the skin of my teeth but stressful. Always leave everything to the last minute and often miss deadlines. Procrastinate when I should be working then have to work extra to get stuff done.

@Halloweenmaz What your doing is normal but you can only do so much. If she's ignoring even the doctor's advice... With the best will in the world, you can't make anyone take your advice, its there decision. If its actually putting the baby at serious risk then obviously you might have to consider what you might need to do to bring in someone else - a professional - who she will have to listen to, but otherwise deep breathes and know you've done what you can to help.

Massive over thinking but this is how my mind works half the time

I know what you're saying, myfavouriterain. We've spent so long trying to read and anticipate the sudden mood swings within our own families, and so long being made to feel it is our responsibility to keep everyone on an even keel, that we're in a permanent state of hyper-vigilance (completely forgetting to think about what we think or what we feel).

It also doesn't help that our parents planted and nurtured that persistent little nagging voice in our head, the one that constantly criticises and finds fault.

Feeling a bit low today. Been feeling better about going NC and letting go of the FOG. Now the self analysis. Realising how it continues to impact. The hyper vigilance is so true and the self sabotage. Think I need to sort out some more counselling, can go back to my last/current one and she's good for just getting everything that I'm feeling out but I'm not sure its enough. She's like a wize old slightly hippy aunt, and I do like her. She's helped me to communicate more openly and better with DH whuch has improved our relationship (I wasn't in a great place with that 2/3 years ago). How has CBT worked out for others?

Halloween with your sister from what you say my feeling is that she enjoys having you you turn your attention to her, when a dialogue between you is started up she grabs the spotlight and she make sure it stays trained on her.
With your family and with her you give, you pour out your sympathy and your advice, they enjoy this because your attention is focused on them this tells them that they are the important ones.
The reason that they go on to ignore your advice or treat it as if it isn't important it's because this also lines up with the underlying message that they are the important ones ....they ignore your advice because it comes from you and it suits them to frame your advice (and by extension you) as unimportant.
A bit long winded but I hope you get the gist of what I mean?

Ulter, great advice from hero. I'm never on time when I don't want to be where I'm going.

It's maybe a flag the therapist isn't right for you or maybe it's self sabotage. You deserve to feel better.

What do you want out of therapy this time Freshstart? My experience with CBT is that it is quite practical and solutions focused, which is good if you have like one or two specific issues. You talk about self sabotage and hypervigilance - I can see that it might help with the self-sabotage patterns but the hypervigilance, I think that it's a reasonable strategy that you've learned as a child and IMO the way to work on that is to try and take away the motivation for it - in other words, work on making yourself feel safe, and the need for hypervigilance will go. For me that would mean go back to your hippy aunt therapist (she sounds great!) and tell her all your woes, don't focus on recovery, focus on being comforted. Find experiences and situations where you can be in harmony with other people. And just let yourself heal slowly. You'll stop being hypervigilant when you feel like you're mostly surrounded by people that are OK. I say, just my opinion, and I've not taken it myself so...

Ambitiouslyfit I love gratitude, and I love being positive as well, but I have never once in my life managed to conjure up either of those emotions by effort of will when I've felt shit. So I would also have struggled with that advice from your therapist.
I have found that if I'm in a terrible mood there are some things that sometimes help, like going hiking or listening to loud music. But it takes a while and it doesn't happen automatically. Sometimes the feeling of gratitude is just that I've got to the top of the hill and I can come back down now!)

But you also ask about how to avoid sort of compulsively oversharing and I think you can bring some conscious will to that and make it better. It sounds like that's something you can do with your friend. I wonder if, when you've been talking to her, have you been doing it in that sort of unboundaried way? I think you have to accept that while you may have missed out on that with your parents, it's not something you can recreate with friends. Friends expect reciprocity, they expect you to be able to sort of understand and stay in charge of your own feelings - so for example if you're meeting someone for a quick coffee and you know that talking about a difficult subject is going to bring up strong feelings for you... avoid it that time? Because even if you can find someone who is willing to listen to everything, to always see you at your lowest - that's going to be a weird, codependent type of friendship, it's not going to do you any good, you know?

Lets say person A is Abusive and manipulative to person B. If the therapist told person B that they need to take responsibility to manage their own feelings and stop thinkng negatively.. how does that translate to real life

I would say that taking responsibility means accepting the fact that person B cannot change person A's behaviour. Person A is responsible for what person A does. And person B is responsible for what person B does. So if person A is being a dick, person B shouldn't hope to convince them or influence them into being good. Person B should look after person B. And that may well mean limiting or stopping contact with person A. You often hear people on Mumsnet say "someone else can only make you feel crap with your permission" and I kind of like it as long as "not giving permission" can mean "taking care not to be in the same room as". You know? There are different types of strength. There are certain people that can say certain things to me and it is going to hurt me, I know that, and I wish I had the sort of Zen mind control ability to not let it affect me but I don't have that and I don't think that's surprising for any of us and I don't think it's necessary either. People with nice families and nice lives can go through their whole life without coming to the attention of an abuser, we don't think of them as mentally weak, so why should we think of ourselves that way if we choose to deal with abusive people by avoiding them? It shouldn't be necessary to "stand up to them" or anything like that. Fuck, that's the opposite of what we should do, because abusers love the attention.

FreshStart01

I also find I procrastinate a lot, leave things to the last minute, miss deadlines, etc. I always assumed this was just part of my personality (and maybe it is) buts it's interesting that you're the same. I wonder if there's some link between that and our upbringings.

I also had a counsellor who was like a bit of an old hippy, and she was a lovely person and a good sounding board, but I don't think she was really able to get to the root of my issues. She was helpful when I had a long term relationship end, and when Dad's dementia was getting bad. She was good at getting me to value myself and put boundaries in place.

However, I would only ever get about 4-5 sessions at a time with her before she decided I was doing ok and didn't need any more counselling. I remember going to her once when I was feeling really low, because I thought I might have depression. I was considering going to the doctor but was telling myself it wasn't that bad, and I wanted her opinion. She told me not to go to the doctor because I didn't have clinical depression, and that anyone in my circumstances would feel depressed. That I didn't need medication as I could work through this stuff myself. It turned out to be terrible advice that delayed me getting the help I needed.

I started with a new counsellor over two months ago and he is fantastic. After my first session, where I ended up spilling my guts about a whole load of childhood stuff that I haven't talked about for a very long time, he told me I had been carrying an enormous burden my whole life and that we'd need to spend quite a bit of time unpicking it. He challenges me (in a good way) and leads me to insights that I never had before. I feel like I'm making so much more progress now than before.

I did a CBT course earlier this year. It's a good tool to have in your kit, as it's a practical way to calm yourself and reframe your thoughts if you have anxiety. It's not enough on its own to tackle these kinds of childhood issues though.

@ulterego I think (just my opinion obv) that you could go back to see her and explore the 'missed appointment' and the feelings you had about it. Might help them to help you? My therapist asked me the other week 'what is it you are hoping to get from this' and afterwards I felt as if she was having a go at me, implying I was fannying about and not doing it right. So I told her at the next appt how that (quite reasonable 😂)question made me feel, and we discussed it. Sometimes I think things that might seem quite innocuous can actually open up our understanding of ourselves if we talk about them with a professional. So this might be good to talk about, is what I'm saying.
@freshstart have you had psychoanalysis before? My therapist is a former psychiatrist who does psychoanalysis and I think the analysis part is really helping me. As I understand it, counselling is great for validation and being heard and supported. If you go for psychoanalysis then they will help unlock the reasons why you feel the way you do and help you reframe things, get different perspective etc.

@Cherrycee My father is an academic snob who demanded impeccable grammar (he never stopped correcting my speech and written English). He would wake me up in the mornings of holidays and weekends as a teen to get me up and revising. I of course resented it and there wasn't any praise from him when I did succeed in some subjects as he focused only on the subjects I wasn't very good at, questioning why I hadn't done better in those. I remember my RE teacher asking why on earth my Dad wanted to see her at parents evening when none of us were under any pretence that I might be taking it at GCSE, and it was just because I hadn't got an A grade in that year's RE test. No matter that I'd already started GCSE Maths to take it a year early. I quietly rebelled - he's a languages translator, and I did particularly badly in those - and by A-levels I was struggling to keep motivated, skived a fair bit and also started binge drinking which lead to some bullying after I made an idiot of myself while drunk (the phase of doing almost anything to get a boy to 'love' me had begun) so A-level results were 'very disappointing'. He stopped me going to uni that year (I couldn't afford to go if he wouldn't pay), meaning I had to stay in the home I was desperate to escape, ended up in an emotionally abusive relationship of sorts (willing to put up with anything as long as I was 'loved') with no close friends around as they'd all left. I didn't have a particularly amazing time while at an HE College or make life-long friends (a better uni was out of my reach as they all expected better grades if you re-took, and I got pretty much the same second time round), taking Psychology which my F didn't see the point of, got a 2:1 which I don't remember him praising but I do remember how impressed he was with my best friend's first in English Lit and Art History. I do think my procrastination is an excuse not to succeed more than I do; in my head I know I could probably do better, or certainly get more done, but then if I still fail, I don't have that as an excuse and I will have to face up to the fact that I am a failure just as my F instilled into me that I would be if I didn't work harder.

@MarmadukeM No but I'll definitely look into that, thank you!

I hope you are all keeping well. I am struggling with major stress and anxiety today and finding it hard to focus on anything. It's a month since contact and while I am glad to be away from the drama and criticism and general narc behaviour I feel lonely and isolated. No one (As in siblings or anything) has contacted me. So I know where I stand now. It just hurts dreadfully.

@Chilledout Its a tough time, you know long term that going NC is going to be the best thing for you, but you can't help but feel incredibly sad and let down. Do you practice mindfulness or meditation? I would recommend it for immediate calming. It doesn't matter if you feel like you've got too many thought running round your head, it will help - just put a guided meditation on Spotify or youtube and sit for 20 minutes, try it. Or a walk. Or come up with a positive mantra and keep repeating it to drown the rest out.

I agree @toomuchtooold with that comment about being ‘strong’, and it goes back to what @SimplySteveRedux said about resilience. Adapting to survive, as many of us have, is a massive strength.
Therapists don’t fix people, they support them to fix themselves. We can learn how to know ourselves better and recognise the behaviours we took on that are undermining our emotional wellbeing.
The therapist who tells you to find positivity and banish negativity if you grew up with a parent who snarled at you to ‘take that miserable look off your face’ is just reinforcing the damage in my view.

FreshStart01 - Your dad sounds infuriating, and exhausting, to deal with. A 2.1 degree is something to be proud of, so well done. He's clearly someone who can never be pleased.

My parents were the opposite. Dad was quite intelligent but never went to college/uni, in fact I was the first person on that side of the family to do so. They didn't really care what I did, so I never thought about what courses would help me build a career, I just did something that appealed without thinking ahead. It's arts related and I ended up working on the business side of it, but it's very niche with minimal career progression and not great pay. Feeling trapped in that job, and regretting not making a more sensible choice, just added more stress on top of all the family issues. I did enjoy it though and met DP through it, so I'm trying to look at the positives instead of getting frustrated with myself.

@CherryCee Its never to late to re-train although obviously there's a cost to that. I didn't stay in anything psychology related, took some marketing qualifications at night school and did that for a while, then re-trained as an accountant. I'm not sure any of us really know what we want to do at 18, and I'd have pushed hard against anything my F suggested at that point anyway. In fact he claims he told me I should study accountancy back then, but that would have seemed way to dull, ha ha.

Thank you @FreshStart01 for the reassurance. How are you feeling now? I havent had CBT so cannot comment but i know its more for the present rather than the past. I have hyper vigilance too and over think EVERYTHING.

Yes @Ulterego that all makes sense. I guess its classic narc traits? No empathy for anyone else or feelings but attention all on them otherwise there is hell to pay.

@Cherrycee and @freshstart01 i also procrastinate all the time! I self sabotage too and will never follow through with things. I think its my lack of confidence.

@Chilledout11 i understand, it can be so lonely. I'm trying to find things in my life to do and make it more fulfilling. Is there a hobby you could do? Treat yourself to something? To try take your mind off of it?

Sorry for being late to the game (or thread).

Can anyone advise how we accept our parents as contributing to our difficulties? I love my mum and dad and don't want to 'see' them as abusive like my pyscologist does..

Marmaduke yes I will explore it with her... if I go back, if she'll take me back 😕 I haven't heard from her😕. Something to do with me subconsciously not valuing myself enough to show up for myself or maybe it's a gut feeling about the therapist, therapists must have feelings about who they feel they are better able to work with or not mustn't they?
Time will tell!
Your father sounds cold and cruel Freshstart😔

Hi Purple 😊 good to have you on the thread!
are you saying that you don't agree with your therapist as to what constitutes abusive behaviour?

@Ulterego Yet sometimes he could of course be warm and charming, even to me. And of course if I presented this to him he would be hurt and say it was all done for my own good.

Hi, PurpleFrames. Glad you found us.

Can anyone advise how we accept our parents as contributing to our difficulties? I love my mum and dad and don't want to 'see' them as abusive like my pyscologist does..

There's no short cut and no easy way, I'm afraid. The key is to accept - in your heart as well as with your head - that you are neither the cause nor the cure for the way your parents are, and to stop taking responsibility for their moods and their "happiness" and start taking full responsibility for your own. Oh, and to put safe boundaries in place between you and your parents to protect your own mental and emotional wellbeing.

For many of us on here, it's still a work-in-progress. We make some progress, get knocked back, pick ourselves up, try again, get a little further on, then get knocked sideways by a couple of unexpected sideswipes, get up again, and...you get the picture.

If you are seeing a psychologist, one who understands the complicated dynamics of families like ours, that's a good start.

Do you have any other support in real life? Would you feel able to talk on here?

Hi @PurpleFrames you’re not late, this is all a work -in-progress!

Health professionals make mistakes, get things wrong. But your psychologist must have reasons why they think what they do.

When we’re very upset or frightened our minds need to protect themselves so they look for rational reasons for things happening. We don’t want to accept that people who we need to love us do things to harm us. We don’t want to be vulnerable. So we put up defences, sometimes very strong ones. For years I explained away my mums behaviour as eccentric and plain-speaking, she meant well, surely. It’s was me, I’m over-sensitive, just need to try harder to be a better daughter. I am fat,a bit stuck up, a bit lazy, a bit unloving , they’re right to point all these things out! (I struggled with the hitting though, I didn’t ever think that was for the best). I agreed that all the people they know are quite foolish, listened to all the many examples.

It’s safer to have that make-believe in place because it meant I had the appearance of normality. Saying it was wrong was shattering, but the relief of not maintaining the charade is immense.

It sounds like you’re in a confusing and difficult place. 💐

Thanks for the replies everyone x

@Ulterego erm no I just don't think I had frame their behaviour in that way. I can totally accept certain behaviour as abuse but when it's disconnected from me and mine if that's understandable.

@SingingLily not taking responsibility for their happiness is something I 1000000million percent struggle with. I always feel like I should be living with them, their old im missing our, whaT if they die I will feel so guilty, I don't want them to be disappointed etc etc

I only have a few sessions left with then pyscologist unfortunately but we made a map of my difficulties and apart from some other trauma experiences they virtually all stemmed from my parents and it sounds so brutal written down...

I have a CPN, drugs keyworker and some close friends. It's still a struggle to keep alive just dragging myself along all the time.

@Herocomplex I could totally relate to everything you wrote there x especially about the relief. I had a constructed a perfect life for my parents to see which has broken down with my recent break down. Although it's been brutal it has been a bit of a relief to not have to pretend I'm ok all the time with everyone. Although I do still find myself doing that with family.

Purple frames

Keep going to your sessions with the psychiatrist. I am wondering if this person has talked to you about disassociation.

Not everyone who experiences trauma will have a dissociative disorder. But many experts agree that there are some experiences of trauma that make dissociative disorders more likely:-

abuse or neglect that begins at an early age (the younger you are, the harder you will find it to cope with traumatic experiences without dissociation)
abuse or neglect that is severe and repeated over a long period, or by many people
abuse or neglect that is painful and makes you scared
there is no adult who you have a good relationship with and is able to provide comfort and help you process and deal with the trauma
a child’s parents or caregivers dissociate themselves
abuse or neglect that is done by someone you feel attached to
the abuser tells you that things didn't happen or that you were dreaming
things are different at different times - for example things seem normal during the day but at night you are abused.

SingingLily thank you.

And toomuch what you put ^Friends expect reciprocity, they expect you to be able to sort of understand and stay in charge of your own feelings - so for example if you're meeting someone for a quick coffee and you know that talking about a difficult subject is going to bring up strong feelings for you... avoid it that time? Because even if you can find someone who is willing to listen to everything, to always see you at your lowest - that's going to be a weird, codependent type of friendship, it's not going to do you any good, you know?^ that's such a useful piece of advice, I wish someone had explained it to me, just like that, about 30 years ago. I'm guessing it's the sort of socialisation normal people get from their parents. I've made that mistake countless times, wanting someone to hear me, then got crushed and felt rejected when they made clear I was being weird and avoided me.

Re read my last post at the top, and could barely make head or tail of it myself sorry.. Hopefully this one is more coherent.