But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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May-August 2019
August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you Attila and FreshStart01 for your replies on Monday, they mean a lot. I have read the whole thread (and quite a few of the previous ones), apologies for not giving individual responses.

My (classicly narcissistic, manipulative and uninterested) F is leaving this country today after a short visit and I have not met up with him nor replied to his email. I diverted his emails to another folder actually and have not checked it. Unusually for me I am not feeling guilty for once! I am a bit scared the guilt will still come so I'm bracing myself. I feel like I am thinking more clearly though and seeing the guilt for what it is - a result of being manipulated. I'm realising he is not genuinely upset to not have me in his life or he would have not made so little effort in the past. I think I have had a sort of misplaced responsibility to him, whereas if anything he should have felt responsibility to me and guilt towards me for how horribly he responded every time I tried to improve our relationship. Having DS also has clarified this all a lot for me, no way would I want my sweet and loving DS to meet someone who doesn't give a shit and will just disappoint in future.

Thanks for helping my sanity so much, all of you

@AttilaTheMeerkat He is 81. I had to sit on my hands with first birthday of his while NC – do I send a card, do I not, no I don’t! I agree and my DM is the complete opposite with them and all children, has been nothing but sympathetic and helpful with suggestions about my DD’s anxiety which they’ve both suffered from at different times (the youngest now). I found it all hurtful, but the ‘show off’ bit was also followed by a softener, as I mentioned he often does, that he thinks he was the same as a child, BUT I WASN’T. And that really got to me as well because as a sibling of a child with special needs, you learn very quickly that there’s really no point trying to be the centre of attention because you’re never going to succeed. Not that my DM didn’t try to compensate for that but if DB was in the room then just inevitable that he would need more from them than I did, and even if he wasn’t there, I knew he was still occupying their thoughts more than I was. I just found it bizarre that he wouldn’t have made that connection, that somehow the softener was to ‘praise’ me for something that really wasn’t my choice in a fairly crappy childhood. Not that he’s ever praised me for anything so not really that either. Definitely right on the ‘seen but not heard’. No I would not tolerate it from a friend, and I didn't tolerate it from him, hence the response email then LC to NC. It is bloody awful, and no the non narcissistic parent can never mitigate the damage, it runs too deep.

@Halloweenmaz I do agree with AttilaTheMeerkat and the high anxiety that I was feeling every time my F came within speaking distance of my DDs was my unconscious doing a very good job of telling my body to grab them and run as fast as I could, as far away as possible, run, run for the hills. But each time after he left, my DH would say “Oh he wasn’t THAT bad this time, the girls are okay” and I’d think perhaps it was just me putting my child self in their place when he was talking to them, feeling how I felt when I was their age. Now I know that I should have listened to my instincts. I know it’s hard but I think everyone on here is rooting for you to lessen the time you spend with them, even if it’s just baby steps. I hadn’t realised how young your DS is so not at school yet. Is he at a playgroup? I’m just thinking that it gets easier to play the ‘oh we’re busy today’ or 'he's really worn out" cards even if a complete an utter lie when they’re at school.

@OneTwoTree Well done. I also did the diverted email thing, not that my F has tried to contact me since the last straw / NC decision. I think now you know he’s left the country, you can just breathe a sigh of relief and feel no guilt. I feel the same in that if he was actually devastated that I made this decision, then he would have made some proper effort to talk it through, but he didn’t – he said, “So be it. Perhaps you should have done it sooner to save us all some heartache.” I don’t believe his heart is aching, if it is then perhaps he’ll start questioning why I feel the need to go to this length, but I won’t hold my breath.

I suspect that when we cut these people out of our lives they experience this as a stain upon their good name...they are now a person whose adult child wants nothing to do with them.
In order to restore their self-image to it's proper glory they have to create and promote a narrative which positions them as the good guy and you as the ingrate/mad person/bad person etc.

The thing about the lies...it's weird that I can read him so well now, even over the phone I can hear what he's thinking, but with all this making it up on the spot, well he's gone totally off-piste but if he can do it so can I, you don't treat me like a daughter I sure ain't gonna treat you like a father

I diverted his emails to another folder actually and have not checked it. Unusually for me I am not feeling guilty for once!

I'd say go one step further, OneTwoFree, and delete them - unread - altogether. Otherwise they become what I call "growlers"; those unwanted letters and "gifts" that you can't bear to open so you put them in a drawer till you are feeling stronger. But in the meantime, you know they are still there and so they growl at you.

Delete or bin all growlers. Better for your mental health, trust me.

Dad does the actual childcare if they have him. Mum does the nappies and the cooking. That's her 'role

Just a thought Etty, I wonder if your mother equates nappies and cooking to childcare, and thinks of what your dad does - interacting with your DC - as "playing"? My mum was like that, she seemed genuinely surprised that a child might need anything other than to be physically cared for (and outraged that you could possibly ever be unhappy if you had your own bed and shoes that fit! It's so weird. Both my parents grew up very poor, but my dad had enough insight to understand that while he might have been grateful for the things I had when he was a boy, and while they might be necessary for happiness, they weren't sufficient: he had that ability to put himself in someone else's position that my mother lacked. (My mother would tell you to put a jumper on if she was cold, and she'd mean it; she would get really angry if you tried to explain you didn't feel the cold. Was she just angry at being contradicted, or did it do her head in trying to understand that not everyone is the same? I really don't know.)

Freshstart
perhaps it was just me putting my child self in their place when he was talking to them

I don't think it matters. You know from your own experience they have a history of being emotionally abusive. You have every right (if not a responsibility) to protect your kids from people like that. But even supposing you could have a 100 percent cast iron guarantee that they had changed, I still don't think you're under any obligation to facilitate a relationship between them and your kids. Because it is painful to you. And you matter. I did that, I wanted my kids to have everything they could have in this world, including a good relationship with their grandparents. But anything they would have gained from a relationship with my mother would have been massively outweighed by the amount of grief we got off of her. It's fine. Not being in contact with one's abuser is something we all have a right to IMO.

Just while we’re on the subject of GPs, for those of you who have gone NC what has been your experience in terms of explaining it to your DCs? I haven’t done this yet. We didn’t see him very often anyway, so they’ve not noticed so far, but he would usually visit before Christmas which is also around my DD1’s birthday. I’m pretty sure he won’t try to contact them directly, and part of the last communication was telling him politely but firmly not to send them presents any more. My almost 13 year old is very mature and I could probably have quite a grown up and honest conversation with her, however I don’t want to freak her out with it all or make her feel sad (it will be hard to explain that GD won’t be feeling sad like she will assume he will be – I suppose I’m scared that she might even think we should try to make amends, and I’ll come out of it looking unforgiving which is the whole opposite of what we teach them). My youngest is 11, definitely not so mature and may make the link with the final last-straw phone call she had with him. Do I pre-empt it or just wait for Christmas to come and go, and see if they ask? Which they might, so I need to be prepared. I’m sure at some point they’re going to comment on not having seen granddad for a long time. They don’t miss him though, that’s for sure!

Oh yes tooold, that's exactly it. She says she can't do the silly games like grandad does. She said it's better when they are older and they can talk. She does occasionally have him sit with her but she never sits on the floor with him on his level. Never sings with him which is his all time favourite thing.

And when I think back to my childhood I really, really struggle to remember her playing with us or cuddling us. I've read PP say similar in older posts. It was always Dad that did that. She would be in the kitchen, doing house jobs, sat smoking, drinking if it was evening. She was a SAHP. Never worked since having us. Dad was the earner. She's got a very old fashioned stereotypical view of family roles.

Freshstart my kids were really little so we never really had that experience. My instinct would be to play it by ear and see if they mention it - they might be as glad as you not to see him!
I think talking about it in terms of bullying is quite useful, as that's a term kids are very familiar with. And it gets across the idea of it being a repeated pattern rather than a one off. You would forgive someone who said or did something unkind to you once. But when someone is being repeatedly unkind - is bullying you - it is absolutely right and healthy to take yourself out of that situation.

Etty was your house spotless as well? Our house was and you wouldn't have dared make a mess. It felt like we were constantly waiting for an inspection!

@toomuchtooold Thank you so much, that is really helpful. I don't want to make it sound too 'heavy' for them but I think I can work with the bullying concept (which of course it is) and come up with a plan of roughly what to say if they ask. It is sad that they haven't had a decent GD in their lives, FiL died when we'd just had DD1 and he was lovely although very ill so even if he'd lived longer they wouldn't really have got to know him properly. Oh well, that's life I guess.

I don't think you miss grandparents the way you do decent parents. Two of mine were dead, one lived in Australia and the last spent the entire 20 years I knew her sat in her big chair in the front room, shouting orders to my dad and auntie, eulogising her utter psychopath of a husband and shoving fivers into my hand and telling me to buy sweeties with it and not tell my mother

@FreshStart01 my dd is almost 13 and my ds is almost 10. So very similar ages to yours. I initiated NC recently, not sure if you are familiar with the backstory? Anyways, the kids used to see their GPs twice weekly and now havent seen them since the beginning of August. I've asked them how they feel, explained that they are entitled to their own opinions and feelings and I will do what I can to sort it out for them to see their grandparents (it would be supervised directly and in a location of my choosing with a strict list of unacceptable behaviours) if that's what they want. But that I won't be anymore because their recent behaviour has been unacceptable and is the final straw, I said that just because you are related to people it doesn't mean you will get on or that it is necessarily for the best for you to see each other (talking about myself, not them). So 3 months in they really aren't arsed, which I think is quite telling. I didn't want to with hold info from them in case they started thinking it was their 'fault' if they put two and two together and made 5. I don't want them to have a relationship with my parents but if they really really want to I would support them, as I said, putting in very strict boundaries. To be totally honest I really don't think it'll be a problem anyway as I am 99% sure they would forgo a relationship with their grandchildren rather than apologise or acknowledge any wrongdoing, or indeed allow me to have any control over the circumstances of their relationship. As my narc stepfather can not cope with the idea of not being in total power and my mother will go along with whatever he deems appropriate. Their loss.

I know your children are old enough to understand but can I just suggest @MarmadukeM that you ensure your children are very clear that you tried everything you could to make the relationship with the GP’s work and that most family relationships do work, but that you will always be there for them. Just in case their imaginations are working on the possibilities.

@Herocomplex yeah I hear what you are saying, I have apologised to the kids for things being the way they are. They know it's not what I wanted and I have explained that I have tried for a long time, to make things work but I have reached a point now where I've had enough. I have told them that I will always have their backs. Also it helps that my parents don't speak to my husband, in laws or my uncle. So the kids know it's my mother and stepfather who have the problem, and it's not that I'm some mad woman going round estranging myself from anyone who pisses me off 😂

That’s good, it sounds like you’ve made a huge effort to get away from the mistakes made by the previous generation. Hard way to learn it though, hey?

@Herocomplex totally, it's shit. No one wants their kids to see the ugly side of adult relationships but I suppose it's better to learn that being abused isn't ok and have some people no longer in your life than be playing 'happy families' and knowing that it's all a charade. I wish things were different though x

@MarmadukeM Thank you, very helpful, and it sounds like you've explained it in a way that's really sensitive, I hope I can do as good a job with my DDs when the time comes. I just went back and found your back story, your SD sounds like a piece of work, glad you've managed to stay NC.

Also realised how much some people on here are doing for us all, just being on the thread long-term, reading our stories and helping us - you know who you are, big thank you. You are lifesavers, honestly. I feel a whole lot better than I did a week ago, being able to just get it all out and have it validated, also challenging me sometimes but all such good advice.

@attilathemeerkat yes I feel I'm falling into this trap. When my mum gave me the silent treatment for 2 weeks my DS was constantly asking where they were and would cry and get upset. I know he is only 3 and so doesn't understand but it was hard. I have noticed she's begun saying stuff like "mummy isn't good at that is she" or makes comments about our appearance e.g. are you wearing same sock/odd socks to my son. I'm not perfect and I don't feel odd socks now and then are not going to hurt anyone!

I think if I had a better support system around me I'd be more likely to reduce contact. The thought of being totally alone is scary. I know I sound pathetic. Although I'm reducing the amount i speak to her and see her gradually.

I know I sound pathetic.

No, Halloweenmaz, you don't. You sound like a decent and reasonable person trying to make sense of a crazy family dynamic that is not of your making. We've all been there and no one in their right mind would pretend it was simple or easy.

I always liken it to tiptoeing through a minefield with a blindfold on, trying to work out The Rules...when the The Rules can change at any time on a whim.

You're doing your best. They're doing their worst. It isn't a fair contest. It never was.

FreshStart, you sound a little stronger - I'm glad. You'll still have lots of ups and downs but keep going!

HalloweenMaz

I do not think you sound pathetic either actually. Keep working on further lowering contact as you are doing with your mother and sister. Its not your fault that your mother is the ways she is and you did not make her that way. The silent treatment she gave you at that time is a further example of emotional abuse.

You are not alone; you have your son apart from anything else and he sounds lovely as do you. On a wider level there is MN and this particular thread. Odd socks are just fine and that also shows me too your mother will find anything to pick holes in re you and your parenting.

Are there any Gingerbread services in your area?. If your son happens to attend a preschool are any of the other people there friendly and or approachable?.

Thank you singing and attila
Yes that is how I feel like walking on eggshells. Everything is calm and I'm atm but there will be another outburst at some point. The last one was when I told her she should be supporting me as I was worried and scared about this harassment and she was acting like I was making it a big deal. Just like how she did with my abusive ex. Her words were "are you sure you're not making this up".

I'm not sure if there are gingerbread services in my area I'll have a look. He goes to nursery but I work the days he goes so I literally drop him off and pick up so have no time to talk to anyone there.

Hope everyone has a good morning

@Halloweenmaz it sounds like she needs you to be dependent on her, so prefers it when you’re vulnerable. You’re a working single parent so you’re obviously made of pretty tough stuff, but you’re not seeing it at the moment.
Narc parents do everything they can to keep you isolated and suspicious of others, criticising and undermining your relationships outside the family.

I can hear that you’re lonely and worried at the moment, but don’t trade your self-respect for the very poor company they offer you. It’s hard, especially when the world around you makes family seem like such a priority.

When I told her she should be supporting me
Halloween, a normal caring parent would respond by supporting their adult child, she is not normal or caring if she sees that you are in any way vulnerable or in need of help her instincts tell her to put the boot in, for her it is an opportunity to gain power over you so that she can control you and get what she wants out of you.
You cannot trust her she is not on your side.
I completely understand why it's hard to cut her out when you don't have family support, cutting her out gradually and stealthily maybe the best strategy in any case?
If you can be very subtle but still stick to your firm boundaries it will be hard for her to come up with any kind of counter strategy because you're not giving her anything concrete to wrestle with.

Looking back I have seen this with my own parents, if anything went wrong in my life it's as if they were rubbing their hands with glee, seeing me struggling feeds and nourishes them, if I'm the poor relation with the shit life then all is well with the world as far as they are concerned.
With friends like this you do not need enemies, if people like this are your only support system then you should bin them off and go it alone.
Treat them like mushrooms feed them shit and keep them in the dark.
When they are around keep all your wounds covered, don't let them smell blood, wear a suit of armour never trust them.
Haters gonna hate
predators gonna predate

@Halloweenmaz

I'm a single parent too and totally understand how lonely it can be when going through something like this with neglectful parents. I usually keep in touch by messages most days with mine, usually about DS. So last two days I've really had to stop myself from sharing. Also there was some upset at his nursery yesterday and I would normally go to my parents, and they usually don't care which makes me feel worse, so I resisted yesterday and messaged some friends instead. And it's times like that I feel super lonely because it's just not the same as talking to a partner or family. It's hard to find emotional support from others when they have their own families.

My mum sounds like yours too, she says 'bad mummy' to my son (she thinks she's joking) if I've done something that upsets him like wipe his nose or face! At the moment he's too young to understand what she's saying but I know it won't be long before he does and it worries me, which is why I'm trying to limit my relationship with them.

Actually I've got a bit of a dilemma, dad's just messaged me. It's my mum's birthday tomorrow. Start of the week she made a comment she wasn't sure she wanted to do anything. So I was hoping this to be the case and they wouldn't ask me. But dad now messaged to say they are going to do a Sunday roast tomorrow afternoon. Not actually asked me, just assumed I'm coming. I've not said at any other point I've kept the day free or anything, they are just assuming it.
I'm still bitter about my birthday 2 months ago and feel like I want to do what they did to me. Tell them I don't fancy it and leave them to it. But it's probably petty and will probably blow up. Not sure what to do.