But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

And just one thing I keep coming back to lately - the more headspace I give to thinking about and understanding their behaviour the less time I spend on my own happiness and future. Don’t spend all your emotional energy on it, work on coming to terms with it by all means, but centre yourself, not them.

This resonates with me too, Etty. A milestone birthday for me was completely ruined because M completely overrode my wishes, changed the restaurant, the time, everything, and notified the family of the "much better arrangements". I hated the occasion so much, I told DH to settle the bill so we could escape and go home. Truly an unforgettable day

do I just try and phase out contact? Do I tell them why I don't want to spend time with them anymore?

There's no hard-and-fast rule but I would say decide for yourself how much and what type of contact you can tolerate and stick to it. Mine at present is weekly phone calls only but is heading towards long periods of radio silence.

Don't feel you have to tell them why. You don't. You could just gradually fade from view. Grey rock is a useful technique so that they start to lose interest in you. If you don't feel strong enough - and I completely understand how hard it is to go against a lifetime's conditioning - then you could offer up work or childcare or whatever as an excuse not to visit if you are pressganged into explaining. It only works for awhile though. Good luck.

I agree with SingingLily about the LC, it will be noticed. It was my sister doing this that prompted the escalation of batshittery towards her.

I agree there is no need to announce that you are going no contact you can just cultivate the vague and elusive aspects of your personality, become eccentric and preoccupied with your own interests, hard to pin down etc

Thank you for the advice, I think you're right to not announce it. I actually wrote something yesterday, felt better for it and shared with my brother and his partner. Predicted what the response would be and we realised it would be a dead end. It would cause so much upset and stress for me that following your suggestions I realise it's just better to see them as little as possible for now. If they start questioning it at a later date I will reconsider what I do then. One step at a time.

@Herocomplex your comment about the more headspace you give them the less you have for your own happiness really stuck out for me. I put so much time and energy into the whole situation that it brings me down further. I need to try and forget about it for long periods and not try and find a solution or way to fix it all the time. It can't be fixed.

Oh and something else that clicked last night. I've known for a long time and my mum confirmed it again recently, that when the time comes she will commit suicide (her mum did too) because she refuses to go in a home like my nan on dad's side and she refuses to have chemo etc if she had cancer. Does not want any treatment. It clicked last night, can't believe I didn't think of this before. She's that controlling that she even wants to control her own death. Even when she knows how her own mum's suicide affected her, she doesn't give a shit how her suicide will affect us. Not even acknowledged us at all. (Although I'm not sure how her death will affect me actually.) I know a lot of people say suicide is not selfish, people are usually in the darkest depressions etc but it just feels different with mum's comments about it. It doesn't feel like it would be a typical suicide, more like euthanasia but without compassion for her own family.

Hi guys

I know there is no real answer to this question but if I get back into contact with my parents (specifically mother) how do I stop them from hurting me?

A milestone birthday for me was completely ruined because M completely overrode my wishes, changed the restaurant, the time, everything, and notified the family of the "much better arrangements". I hated the occasion so much, I told DH to settle the bill so we could escape and go home. Truly an unforgettable day

It's horrible isn't it. That anyone, let alone your own parents, can be so selfish on someone else's birthday. I always try to go away or do something I know they won't want to do now for both me and DS so I don't have to see them. It was just this time I couldn't do my planned day trip as I had hardly slept due to DS sleep issues and it wasn't safe to drive far so stayed local.

DS is only 2 and his 1st bday they did actually come to the place I arranged for him but she had such a mardy face on she might as well not bothered. I think she has some sort of social anxiety but doesn't actually acknowledge it. But I'm only guessing here based on her not wanting to go anywhere really. I took him camping for his bday this year and said I might do it every year if he wants to (will always be school hols) and she said 'but we will never see him on his birthday'. Yes mum, that's the point.

the more headspace I give to thinking about and understanding their behaviour the less time I spend on my own happiness and future
@herocomplex This is so true!

@reallylovechickens

Boundaries, the word no and zero tolerance of poor behaviour.

Make sure you know exactly what you will and won’t tolerate from them and tell them your boundaries from the start of any renewed contact.

Avoid justifying, explaining or discussing your boundaries. They are yours and what you want.

Have a clear plan in your mind regarding what you will do if they insult or hurt you e.g. Say ‘That is very hurtful. Please don’t do that again or I will leave.’ and following up on it.

If you don’t want to do something then no is a complete sentence.

Good luck if you do decide to try again

@ReallyLoveChickens make sure if you're going to meet them you do it on neutral territory and make sure you can walk out if you want. And it might be worth to have a read of this thread or Toxic Parents or the Out of the Fog website, just to see some examples of the kind of batshit nonsense that people experience. As someone else very insightfully said upthread, when you know the behaviour is standard Batshit Playbook, it loses some of its power to hurt.

Thanks @toomuchtooold makes sense and some good advice.

I feel atm I'm in a constant state of confusion. My mum is often ok with me now but every now and then she will make comments that hurt. Or try give an opinion on my life. I have backed off a bit and don't contact her as much as I used to. I keep subjects fairly neutral. But then i know she can be vile when I disagree and in my childhood her mood swings were so bad. So I'm just feeling confused.

Can parents swing from enablers of each other? I wouldn't say my dad was spiteful like my mum But he would dish out some physical punishments and lose his temper. So I was scared of both of them but in slightly different ways.

Halloween my feeling is that with these types you can never trust them, she may not always express the darker side of herself but it's always there.
This can never be a relationship between equals, these people are predators if they see weakness and vulnerability their default response is to exploit it for personal gain, don't give them too much information, always protect yourself, never let them back you into a corner.
She will not get better she will only get worse as she gets older.

@Etty17 Just wanted to add in that I think very wize to go as LC as possible now while DS is still small and not feel pulled into any grandparent seeing grandchildren guilt if that's part of the equation. Just my experience but my dad was very keen to see my DDs as babies but clear as they got older that they didn't live up to his high expectations, just as I never did (and in fact no child can). I wish I'd realised earlier, inevitable that my anxiety levels were going to be sky-high when he visited and had the opportunity to interact with them, I was so on edge about what he might say to them. He has zero empathy with children behaving like children, sometimes getting tongue-tied or doing something a little bit random out of nervousness, and of course they never felt at ease with him. You could argue that they probably picked up on my tension, but I always tried to appear neutral and jolly it along (I found several glasses of wine helped me with this, so he probably thinks I'm an alcoholic - actually I hardly ever drink usually!). As they got older he would be more critical to me about them, i.e. terrible that they're not reading very much, awful disappointment not to get into grammar school (yes, we're in one of those counties, but they're really not those kids). He crossed a line when I stupidly told him DD1 had some anxiety issues which were causing a few problems at school, and he sent back a long reply including how he'd always found her a bit of a show off, and she needed to be taught to show her teachers respect. No concern for her whatsoever. I was livid, and very hurt that he'd said these things about his own GC, and told him so. He of course replied sarcastically that I should be able to take an opinion, but he should have known I'd be over-sensitive to criticisms of my children (like I was being completely unreasonable). That was the point I started grey rocking, but he could still find something, even if he basically had to make it up ("I suppose your children are spoilt just like this child I met the other day"). I urge anyone with these kind of parents to set boundaries very early on when you have children, they will not suddenly surprise you by being lovely grandparents, in fact they'll get worse as they get older, guaranteed.

She will not get better she will only get worse as she gets older.

Ohh this is interesting. I said to my brother yesterday is mum getting worse or am I getting more intolerant (probably both). He wasn't sure as they don't live nearby so don't see it as much as me. But I definitely felt she's getting worse. I wonder why that is?

I hadn't read Ulterego's when I also put that at the end of my post, how funny! I was never sure if I was talking to my dad after one too many, but he was definitely getting worse. Cantankerous on top of narcissistic.

he's a spiteful bastard isn't he Freshstart, no wonder you were livid any one would be 🤬
I bet he doesn't like criticism too much 😲🤭
I found mine has started to lie, he just makes up any old shit on the spot to try and get his own way 😲

I spoke to a psychologist about treatments for NPD, she said it was possible to work with younger patients, but the older ones had very little capacity for change.

I think most people who get older find their worlds shrinking, it’s probably even worse for a narcissist as they don’t form good relationships.

The parent who made the remark about dying by suicide is quite usual for a narcissist. My DM used to talk all the time about things she would do when my DF dies. No apparent care about how we as his daughters might feel.

it's starting to sound as if suicide is the preserve of the narcissist.... I suppose it makes sense?
I suppose as they get older and more dysfunctional they cling ever more tightly to their ways of doing things, because they are convinced they are always right they don't look for new solutions they just double down??

I found mine has started to lie, he just makes up any old shit on the spot to try and get his own way

Oh yes, my mother is the same. She's always told lies but the older she gets the more outrageous and brazen. She worked as a secretary for a few years before getting married and then never worked again. Now she tells anyone who'll listen that she worked as an air hostess during the 70s and regularly flew to New York and met all the stars. It's total bullshit and we know it is but she insists (even to us) that it's true. Mental

freshstar I already feel pulled into grandparent guilt because my dad and DS dote on each other already. Funnily enough DS doesn't seem too keen on my mum which is fascinating! She doesn't really play with him much though, very short bursts. Dad does the actual childcare if they have him. Mum does the nappies and the cooking. That's her 'role'.

It's my dad actually that makes all of this so difficult. He does enable her and doesn't stand up to her and it's frustrating because in any other scenario he is a reasonable person and enjoyable to be around. Even if mum is in a different room I feel better around him. I would go as far to say he's probably a victim of her abuse too, she talks down to him so much and controls him. He gets told off by her too if he's doing something 'wrong'. It would be easier to spot the abuse if it was him treating her that way. But he never stands up to her or tries to reason with her either. He always protects her and I don't know why. It's sad but at the same time he's allowed it to happen to us.

The suicide/narcissist stuff is interesting. @herocomplex I can't believe what your mum would say about your dad! God why can't these people just listen to themselves!!

It boggles my mind that someone can lack in any self awareness. I can't imagine having a brain that doesn't think about what you say and do to others? What goes through their mind when they come across an article or tv programme that mentions narcissists.. who do they think are the narcissists?

@etty17 yes I get the grandparent guilt too. My DS adores them! He is only 3 though and has no opinions of his own yet. I remember when I was younger that she only flew into rages when I began having my own opinions so maybe 7? I'm worried the same will happen with my son.

@ulterego yes I feel she's worse but in different ways. She can no longer be physical with us as we are big enough to stand up for ourselves and my dad knows I'll just call the police. So I feel she's becoming more clever. Such as me and sister were invited to a family friend party, this lady and her family are lovely ( unlike my mum, but she plays a nice woman well). But mum didn't tell us we were invited until the night before and said ah well I know you wouldn't have wanted to come. I wonder what she told them why we couldn't come. She knows I get lonely so she's trying to exclude me.

@Etty17 That's really tough, no easy answer. Does your DD know how she makes you feel? I suppose then its up to you to toughen up your internal emotional boundaries in that you work to minimise how hurt she can make you feel, and have no expectations of her being something she can't. I actually think I mostly worried unnecessarily that my children would be damaged by the way he spoke to them, I think children are pretty resiliant and if trusted parent tells them not to worry about what grumpy GP says or does then they won't. My dad lives a distance away so visits were fairly infrequent, thank god, but I had the guilt if I visited my mum that I ought to visit him as well (closer to her than to us).

@Ulterego Yes. The lack of empathy he felt towards DD1's anxiety and respect for teacher's I could take as a generational thing, but saying she was a show off was what really got to me because I thought of all the times my DD's had been excited to put on a little show for their GD, practising before he came, or tried to talk to him like a grown-up, and I just thought god have you just sat there thinking that the whole time? Makes me well up even now!

Halloween

Sod feeling guilty about them as grandparents. Do you think they feel any guilt or even remorse about how you have been treated; I think not.

Many children of narcissists in particular fall into the trap.
I am of the opinion that if these people are too toxic/batshit for YOU to deal with, its the same deal for your children as well. These people have not fundamentally changed since your own childhood. They will harm your children in not too dissimilar ways as to how you have been harmed by them. Narcissists and their fellow enablers like young children in particular because they have no real opinions yet and see them as a source of potential narcissistic supply. It does not even have to be verbal either; it can be even a look or a pinch and this can also happen too right in front of your very eyes. I would keep your child well away going forward from the two of them and certainly now lessen completely the amount of contact you all have.

Hi FreshStart

re your comment:-
"The lack of empathy he felt towards DD1's anxiety and respect for teacher's I could take as a generational thing"

Why is that?. May I ask roughly how old he is now?. I ask because not all people of his generation think or act like this by any means. We need as people to be around radiators too and not drains. I have seen by now how many other families act, mainly the emotionally healthy ones, and they show pride in their grandchildren not a lack of empathy for them or telling them they are showing off. Not all families thank god act like my ILs or for that matter my own parents who have put the "un" in the word uninterested. A lack of empathy also does not exist in emotionally healthy families and is usually a hallmark of a narcissistic family structure.

Its more like how he thinks and sees things through his own eyes (all this about children should be seen and not heard which is what my DHs paternal grandfather was like. I read your response to my comment re my ILs with great interest and note that those parents were similar. He called his eldest DD who is now in her nineties a great disappointment and that is something that has stayed with her to this very day). Its bloody awful of him to behave like that towards your child and I would daresay you would not tolerate this from a friend either. Non narcissistic parents can mitigate the damage somewhat though not completely.

I have also come to the conclusion that the only people who bother with such disordered of thinking people are the ones who have been trained since birth onwards to serve them whilst putting their own needs last i.e. their now adult offspring.