But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

No YANBU. Its like she's saying you can't have anything better to do than just wait in for her. Rude. If a friend did that without good reason, they probably won't be a friend for very long.

keeping you waiting is a very obvious and transparent powerplay, just shut it down or play them back at their own game .....anything they can do you can do better 🌝
Who needs that shit, kick them to the curb!

Yea @freshstart01 a so called friend did do this to me and for once in my life I expressed I was angry and felt she kept me waiting all day. I'm no longer friends with her. And my sister is doing the same.
Yes they always treat me like this. If I say anything my sister explodes and gets angry at me! But god forbid if I keep her waiting 5 mins in the worst person.
Also my mum wouldn't treat my sister like this because she knows my sister would hit the roof. She always says you know what your sister is like. However my mum treats me like rubbish as she knows I'm a pushover

Also my mum wouldn't treat my sister like this because she knows my sister would hit the roof.

Ah, your sister has a zero tolerance policy, as does your mother? So they are only sensitive about their own feelings and not anyone else's. Sounds familiar.

so what if she explodes and gets angry, laugh at her or walk away, what's she going to do?
She's just a person she has no authority over you.

@Herocomplex No, they are not together now. I suppose why does anyone stay with an abusive partner? In her case I think it was a mixture of feeling that she wouldn't be able to cope with my DB on her own, perhaps that actually she wouldn't be able to have as much time for me as together they split the weekend in terms of caring for him (Mum had him Saturdays, Dad had him Sundays), and also how would she cope financially as she hadn’t been able to go back to a career in EY teaching because my brother's school holidays were completely different to normal schools, and my father wouldn’t take on the childcare at all due to loss of his much higher earnings (he has always been VERY bitter about the divorce settlement which recognises this fact, because in his view she was just lazy and could have found some kind of work with a pension). We lived in a nice house, with a lovely big garden, and I had piano lessons and went horse riding at weekends – I’m sure she was thinking of me and what I’d have to give up. It was him that decided the marriage in any real sense was over by telling her he had no feelings for her (I think they’d gone a long time before, I’m guessing they both had serious doubts even before they got married), but he liked the domestic situation (her being at home to do the washing, ironing, cleaning, childcare) and didn’t want a separation. They had separate bedrooms and generally didn’t communicate, except for occasional rows or extremely controlled conversations about my DB or me (which I found worse than the rows, I can remember my chest constricting when they actually spoke). We moved house with it like this when I was 9, and she says now that it was a bit mad, but even then she hoped things might improve. There were bizarre efforts at family normality, like Sunday lunches together every single week which were hideous – my mum trying to make cheerful conversation with me, while dad sat sullen, correcting my table manners or focusing on my DB, telling him to “stop making those funny noises” or “eat properly” (DB has the mental age of a toddler). I remember her telling me when I was 14 that she’d started proceedings for a divorce, and I was honestly relieved, but it didn’t come about. It didn’t happen until my brother moved into a residential home aged 18, by which time I’d left home. The first Christmas in a new house with my mum on her own, and my brother, unpacked boxes everywhere, her being apologetic that it wasn’t much of one, and I said that it was the best Christmas I’d ever had… very sad but completely true. I know a big part of staying with him was thinking that she was doing the right thing for me, but I do wonder what it could have been like if she’d left. It might not have been great, but it would have been peaceful. Not just silent. Its funny how I see such a difference between silence and peace. I grew up in silence but it was rarely peaceful.

Sorry so long, once I get going, it keeps flowing. I feel like I need to write it all down.

@Halloweenmaz What has your response been this time so far? I would be inclined to send a calm text telling her that keeping you waiting without sending a message is completely unacceptable behaviour. Then leave it, don't reply again, don't engage. And remember YANBU.

I've read some of these threads at various points and always find them very helpful - thank you everyone for sharing and helping others! I've have a narcissistic, uninvolved father, who has responded meanly to any attempt on my part to improve things. This upset me and made me feel worthless, so have gradually gone more and more LC and grey rock, to NC. I never blocked emails - I just don't reply. It has been much better for my mental health to be NC (though I still get occasional guilt attacks). He lives abroad but is visiting this country right now and has emailed me about meeting up. I don't think I should see him. I never 'announced' going NC, just faded out. Is there any point in replying either vaguely/politely or explaining? Though even if I make it as non-emotive as possible I would expect a harsh response. I wonder if I should have explained why I went NC, but from past experience anything I have written was forwarded/copied to other family members, and responded to in a mean way which missed the point of what I was trying to say, both of which have put me off a lot. I'm just wondering if I should say something so no-one can say I didn't even respond. I have expressed my upset/anger/disappointment plenty of times in the past before giving up and fading out. I know I won't ever have the last word here. I just don't know what the 'right thing to do' is anymore. Thanks for any help with this.

icaneseeclesrlynow I can relate to a lot of what you hsave written. I don't think my DM has never in my life asked how my day was or how I am, she just isnt interested and is completley absorbed with her own thoughts and feelings. There was no affection and warmth from her whatsoever, and yet at the same, just as you say, time it wasnt all bad. There were good times as well, if for example she was in a good mood. She was ruled by her moods and they would change like the wind, and it would often be the most mundane of things that would cause them as well. You never knew what you would get with her, I can remember coming home from school wondering what mood she'd be in. There was a lot of treading on eggshells, and quite frankly no child should feel like that.

I think she has poor coping skills due to having a difficult and possibly emotionally abusive childhood (I say possibly as I don't think she'd ever admit it was abusive herself) and as a consequence can't handle stress or difficult emotions. Instead of disucssing them and getting them out in the open she retreats in on herself, its not her fault and I understand that, but at the same time she won't ever admit to having a problem and won't get the help she needs. Its like banging your head against the wall.

It has been much better for my mental health kind of sums it up. I had a 'last straw' incident with my dad resulting in NC and I think he'll be too stubborn to try to get back into my life (he's always right, so would require me apologising to him), but I am considering what I would say if he did, and I think that's it. "I feel better without you in my life, and us meeting up is therefore not something I wish to do right now." No further explanation required so if he wants to share that with family, then so be it. Guilt is normal. See what others say though, I'm very new to all this, they may well have a different take on it based on experience. I completely relate to sharing with him how you feel and having it belittled or twisted or even ignored. That's what they do. So we can't do that, mustn't let ourselves fall into that trap again. Share your feelings on here instead.

@OneTwoThree - that last one was for you :-)

OneTwoTree

re your comment about your toxic father:-

"He lives abroad but is visiting this country right now and has emailed me about meeting up. I don't think I should see him. I never 'announced' going NC, just faded out. Is there any point in replying either vaguely/politely or explaining?"

No there is really is not. You cannot use JADE with such disordered of thinking people like your dad i.e. justify, argue, defend or explain. ANY explanation no matter how carefully worded will break the no contact position you have (and likely thought long and hard about beforehand) and will put you right back at square one again. Toxic people as well always want the last word and a fight so any response will give him great ammo to lob right back at you. Leave this pandoras box shut because it is damn nigh on impossible to close once it is left open.

You were wise to just fade out contact as you did too.

You are right not to see such a person and you would not have tolerated this from a friend either. What would meeting him achieve anyway for you?. Nothing good.

Its not her fault, and I understand that

It wasn't our fault and we're all trying our very best not to let our childhood experiences negatively impact on our own children's upbringing. I do think my dad has a narcissistic personality disorder or at least traits, and I've read that his emotional development may have 'stopped' at around 6 due to something in his childhood (probably his very authoritarian father who died when he was about 20 so perhaps also some unrwsolved issues there) but I struggle with removing all responsibility for his behaviour from him.

manon,

The nice/nasty cycle associated with abusive people is a continuous one. They are often also quite plausible to those in the outside world and are not nasty all the time. Abuse is at heart about power and control; these abusers want absolute.

It is likely that your mother's own childhood was itself abusive but instead of seeking the necessary help for that took the low road and chose to inflict similar or even the same upon you as she experienced as a child. She did this of her own free will; she made a choice to continue the same old same old. They never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Toxic patterns of familial dysfunction often goes down the generations. Each generation has choice and not all people who have had abusive childhoods go onto further abuse their children.

When I look at my narcissist of a MIL I also looked into her familial background. Her parents are indeed in part why she is the ways she is.

My MIL had a very authoritarian and Edwardian father and a kind hearted but soft touch of a mother. She was made to feel entitled by them; these two put her on a pedestool (from where she still looks down at us). Her emotional development is stalled at around the age of six.

Atilla she is totally different to the outside world. Very popular and well liked by everyone, she even talks in a different voice if that makes sense? She needs to be liked and will go out of her way to be liked by all who come into contact with her. So yes, in that sense she does make a choice to be different towards us.

FreshStart DM and her siblings were passed around various family members as young children because my grandmother was ill for a long time and my grandfather needed to work. I don't think my DM lived with her parents full time until she started school. I think in that time a lot of damage was done. But yes, you are right in that she chose not to do anything about it.

@singinglily yea I guess that's true. When I've stood up for myself then they have been horrible and haven't apologised.

@ulterego I know I don't like confrontation and she has been known to be violent. She came round and I didn't want to start an argument in front of my son. I asked why she was so late and she said "Oh you know what mums like, she was picking him up and stuff". So blamed my mum even though it was her decision to go there and not message me.

@freshstart01 my response has just been to let it go. I feel so stupid being a push over. No wonder I have friends and exes who have treated me so badly. I literally have no one in my life as every relationship has been one sided. Feel so sad.

Why do I feel so pathetic and can't stand up for myself. Why can't I form healthy relationship and everyone that is in my life takes advantage :(

I have a whole host of issues with DM's family as well. They present themselves as very close and tightnit, but IMO they are all very enmeshed. Lots of huge clan like gatherings that everyone is obliged to attend, otherwise you face a guilt trip and get talked about. If there is a wedding or a party you have to invite them all, including kids and grandkids. Otherwise its results in more guilt tripping and bitching.

They all bitch about each other behind their backs, and nothing is ever discussed openly so there is a lot of resentment bubbling under the surface. Some of it going back decades, but its all brushed under the carpet and they continue to present themselves as the model extended family.

On the flipside my DF's family are totally different. My DF has had lots of blazing rows with his siblings, but they hug make up and forget about it. If they are pissed off with each other they say so. They can go months without seeing each other, but when they do its always warm. DM thinks they are weird though.

Its hard to know which is the norm.

I'm sorry I haven't replied to you all individualy, I'm just reading the replies and others experience and taking it all in.
There is so much to think about. Everything that's being said makes perfect sence so thank you so much.

When I've stood up for myself then they have been horrible and haven't apologised.

Your sister and your mother are cut from the same cloth, Halloweenmaz. That's not your fault. That's theirs - because that's their choice. As Attila points out, everyone who had a neglected or abused childhood had a choice about whether to perpetuate the misery on the next generation or whether to break the cycle, be brave, be better.

You took the second road. It's not the easy one, not by any means, but it's the right one and the one who will benefit most will be your own DS.

I don't whether your sister has children. If she has, heaven help them. Take pride in the fact that you are tackling the hard truths and the pain now so that your DS is spared that.

My middle sister has two children: adored selfish and self-absorbed son and unvalued loving caring daughter who has to fight for every scrap that is thrown to her. The son has married a carbon copy of his mother (and grandmother). The daughter has married a lovely man from a normal family and they and their young family will be spending this Christmas at the equally lovely in-laws. No surprise. However, this is how it is perpetrated down the generations.

Courage, Halloweenmaz. 💐

"Atilla she is totally different to the outside world. Very popular and well liked by everyone, she even talks in a different voice if that makes sense? She needs to be liked and will go out of her way to be liked by all who come into contact with her"

Oh yes I can relate to this even down to the changing voice. MIL has a persona of being a sweet old lady who does indeed help others in the outside world. Even the help offered is really to benefit her own self so she can say what a good person she is. To other family members its a completely different story; she is selfishness personified, is as tight as a ducks bottom and would not piss on you if you were on fire!. My MIL is a narcissist and has made the terrible choice indeed not to love.

Your Dfs family is indeed more the norm. That is why your mother thinks its weird; she is the dysfunctional one here as are her wider family of origin. It is true also that toxic dysfunction can and does go down the generations.

Atilla my DM will not stand up to or challenge her family ever. Two of her siblings have been allowed to dictate our family Christmas' for years and will no doubt do so again this year. DM admits that she would really love to do things her own way, and will say that she's going to say no to them this time but as it gets closer nothing happens she backs down and then gets defensive when you ask her what she's going to do about it.

She will not challenge them ever, because it WOULD cause bad feeling and as a family bad feelings are wrong and everyone must be united and tight knit at all time. Whats the worst that could happen really? They might cast her out? Wouldn't neccesarily be a bad thing TBH.

@singinglily yea she looks and acts just like my mum. It's quite scary. She has a newborn baby and I'm already worried as she's hit her partner out of rage. This is not the 1st time in the years they have been together. A part of me wonders when my nephew is older, will she not think wait a minute this is like our childhood and I hated it? I don't want my nephew to have to go through what we did.

I know we all have a choice, I'm choosing to deal with my childhood so I don't understand why they can't. It's hard and a part of me thinks they just have no empathy or feelings towards anyone. They are quite selfish.

I love my Dsis as I know she's a making of my mum But I don't agree with her ways

Thank you @FreshStart01 I think your mum sounds like she endured a lot. I’m glad you have her in your life, and your DB if it brings you some positive feelings. It’s a lot though, your childhood. Living in such an atmosphere takes its toll.