But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Attended the scattering of Dad's ashes on Saturday. A difficult day, to say the least, but it passed off without drama. I stood with DH and DSis while the rest stood some small distance away. I kept a low profile, behaved with dignity and kept to strictly neutral topics.

Last night, I made my now-weekly duty call to M, asking her solicitously how she was after Saturday.

The shimmering rage practically melted the phone lines. I'm surprised the whole of the West Country didn't suffer power outage.

She started screaming down the phone at me for supposed and completely imaginary bad behaviour since my father died. She even insisted that I had engaged in some of this entirely fictional behaviour at my father's bedside while he breathed his last and therefore, these would be the last things he heard before departing this earth. "The hearing is always the last to go", she shouted.

In fact, the nurse had told us that Dad had died about an hour before we were even allowed into the cubicle and of all the family members stood around him - including M - no one heard me say these things - including M. Only Dad, apparently, had heard. She "knew", she said, and I should "seek his forgiveness" as she couldn't forgive me.

So, Reader, I let her have it. Both barrels. Yes, I know she is a grieving widow but I'm a grieving daughter and I am not the family football. At one time maybe, but no more.

I have a "parade ground voice" when I want (vital in my former profession) and I used it to drown her out without actually shouting. I carried on drowning her out until she paused for breath and then I told her a few well-overdue home truths. At that point, she started sobbing and eventually offered to draw a line under the whole mess and start again.

Do I think she means it? No. I'd backed her into a corner and I didn't do what I was supposed to do, which was placate her and apologise for something I'd never done. She had to get out of a corner that she'd made for herself, hence the sobbing.

Will she do it again? Possibly. But the only hold she had over me was my (sometimes complicated) love for my Dad, and he's no longer there. She can't grant or withhold access to him to reward or punish me anymore.

If she does it again, will I care? No. Whatever complicated feeling I had for my mother disappeared into the ether over twelve months ago when she decided to send me to Coventry "for a month" to punish me for some imagined transgression or other.

Without Dad to enable her, she no longer wields the power she once had. In any case, her crown has passed to Middle Sister. MS is welcome to it.

Time for me to slip over the horizon with my noxious family now. But thank you for letting me ramble on, fellow survivors

@Halloweenmaz the trouble is when your head is so full of this emotional abuse you keep doing the same things and getting the same results. Make some space for yourself and what you want.

Oh god @SingingLily what a weekend. How are you feeling now? Have you got some nice plans to look forward to? I sincerely hope you got a really engulfingly warm hug from a dear person.
You may not feel strong or brave but what you did took fortitude.

There are no winners, we all know that. But there are small personal victories for our selves, both for now and back then in the dark past.

@singinglily well done for telling her some hone truths. I bet it felt good. I'm sorry about the loss of your dad

@herocomplex that's the thing, I feel so stuck in a rut. I'm a single parent with maybe 2 friends at most. An abusive ex and I think they know I'm lonely and vulnerable. I think that's why I keep taking all this abuse. I just don't know how to get out of it and build my life. I'm pretty such I'm co dependant

Oh sorry that was suppose to be flowers not gin!

She has a newborn baby and I'm already worried as she's hit her partner out of rage.

God, that's tough, Halloweenmaz. Do you keep her at a distance for the sake of your own mental and emotional wellbeing or do you stay in the vicinity to provide a safety valve for your little niece or nephew at some point in the future. Her partner can't or won't stand up to her on his own account and it's a moot point whether he would be able to summon up the courage to provide his child with some form of protection from her.

Halloween

Halloweenmaz

Was wondering if you have ever read "Codependent No More" written by Melodie Beattie. It may be worth a read.

Another thing I thought about when reading your most recent post was the Freedom Programme run by Womens Aid. This is for women who have been in previously abusive relationships and it could help you going forward re boundaries and red flags in relationships too.

Take care of yourself SingingLily, that's a lot to deal with. Well done for standing up for yourself, it's absolutely true that your mother only started crying because she was backed into her own corner. She wasn't showing any empathy for you as a grieving daughter when she was screaming abuse at you.

SingingLily

Good on you for letting your mother have both barrels.

I also hope you have something nice to look forward to now.

Thank you, Hero, Halloweenmaz, Attila and Cherrycee. It really helps to let it all out on here with people who understand.

I feel surprisingly upbeat. DH brought me a cuppa, a beaming smile and a thumbs-up while I was on the phone. Without me knowing, he'd discussed Christmas plans on Saturday with Middle Sister that made it clear there was no room at the inn here. DSis and I are making firm plans for a long weekend away together. All is good.

But - and this is what I really want to say to all of you - fifteen months ago, I could not have done this. Fifteen months ago, I was an emotional wreck who stumbled across a website and a thread that described my mother's (and father's) behaviour to a T and shocked me to the core. It also showed me that I didn't have to put up with it, that I was worth more. The support, the advice, the sheer good common sense, the relief of being able to share without being judged - that came from all of you. Bless you all. And wherever you are on the path now, take heart. You will be in a different and stronger place at some point in the future. Just keep going.

I recently spoke to my mother on the anniversary of my father’s death and for the first time in two years.

During the conversation she asked if I had seen or knew how my ex husband was. I was divorced 25 years ago. The last time he beat me he put me in hospital. He tried to take my son by claiming that I was unfit mother and he tried to poison him against me during his contact time. Every time I speak to her she speaks fondly of him and asks about him.

I have told her repeatedly that I don’t want to talk about him. When she asked me if I was going to his birthday party, I asked ‘Why would I go when he beat me so badly I ended up in hospital?’ She changed the subject, but continued asking in subsequent conversations.

In addition, before I went NC I had months of her saying that she’d kill herself every time I pointed out that a choice she was making was unwise. After the penny dropped that I was being lined up to be her full time carer and general dogsbody no matter my health, work, other responsibilities or need to have a life I had a frank discussion with her.

I had to be honest and upfront about what I could do and what I couldn’t do for her. I was OK taking her shopping, to medical appointments, over to my sister, but I wasn’t going to be on call 24 hours a day or do DIY, sorting other stuff out etc.

She ended up screaming abuse at me, calling me names and telling me to keep away from her and my sister.

When I was 17 she lied to my boyfriend’s employers that I was underage. We split up and he left his job. During the same period she chased me around the house with a knife, my sister got between us and held my mother off until she calmed down.

If we ever meet her friends or acquaintances she would introduce me and then tell them something embarrassing or shaming about me.

When my Dad was dying, she told me that I had upset him and made him anxious because I talked to him about his death and funeral wishes - a conversation that he wanted to have and that she refused to have with him.

I just doubt myself about whether I have the right to stay NC as she is elderly - she refuses to get involved in any social activities, to make sensible decisions and just waits for others to fill in all the gaps for her.

Oh goodness, hadn’t realised how long that post is!

TL:DR Am I being unreasonable by staying NC with my elderly mother?

Iris

She was abusive and young once and the only thing that has changed in that picture is that she is now old. She certainly remains abusive and she has fundamentally not altered since your own horrific sounding childhood.

Stay no contact with your mother. Its absolutely no point in speaking to her further or really at all now because she does not want to know. She is not going to apologise or accept any responsibility for her actions past and present. Like many abusive types also she continues to side with your violent abuser of an ex (she and he are really two peas of a pod).

You do not owe her anything in terms of a relationship and I would not do anything at all for her now. You are really under no obligation to help her even though perhaps you feel like you should (out of societal convention). She can find someone else to carry the can for her and otherwise fill in the gaps. She failed you as a child and continues to do so as an adult.

Thanks Attila.

It really helps to hear it from someone else.

Every so often I have a wobble and think that I should be caring for her.

TL:DR Am I being unreasonable by staying NC with my elderly mother?

Absolutely not! The fact that you even have to question it shows how much of a number she's done on you (but you're not alone, I think we have all felt that confusion and guilt as we work through this stuff).

She is extremely lucky that you tolerated her for as long as you have, given what she's done.

Two instances really strike me from your post, and either one on their own would be enough for most people to cut contact:

• Chasing you with a knife (btw my mum also did this to my sister when she was 17)
• Showing support for your violent, abusive ex husband, rather than concern for her daughter who had been through hell.

Your mother is poison, and if you keep her in your life she will keep on infecting it.

I know I don't like confrontation and she has been known to be violent
Halloween, sorry I was forgetting the backstory with your sister and I totally get why you want to avoid confrontation, perhaps gradually fade her out of your life?

Every so often I have a wobble and think that I should be caring for her
If you did she would just double down on all her silliness in order to max out the opportunity to make your life hell.
Really after all she's dished out to you she should be afraid to be left alone with you lest you be overcome with a desire to even the score, stay away for both your sake's!

@IrisAtwood

In my view? Oh my god, certainly not. What a monster.

Enjoy your life, don’t give her a second thought if you can help it. And anyone who says differently is wrong.

But it’s your decision.

@Halloweenmaz You sound so low and others have pretty much said what I wanted to say, but I just wanted to add that you did make a choice on how to react today and it might feel like you let her walk all over you but you rose above it, stayed outwardly calm and didn't shout and scream like your DSis would have, while knowing that it is rude behaviour that you would not do yourself and will teach your DS not to do, so you are the better person. I know its hard but you can't fix or change your DSis or feel responsible for your nephew's future in any way, you have your own life and DS to prioritise. You're recognising your own flaws and what might have caused them, and its painful but you are working so hard. Focus on doing that for your DS who needs his amazing mummy - and you are amazing everyday just by getting up and getting on with it. I'm sorry you had an abusive partner, is that still affecting you in terms of having to see him when he sees your DS? Do you feel able to just be on your own, or is that in itself making you feel low? I ask because I'm an introverted person who could happily spend a week on a desert island, while others need people around them constantly, but if you could find some contentment in it just being you and your DS right now, and try not to worry so much about lack of friends and partner, because it sounds like the ones you've lost weren't worth having anyway. I'm sorry if that's not very helpful. Keep talking. And I can't work out how to do the emojis on the app, but: flowers.

Checking in. Had a lengthy thread on Saturday. Hi everyone

Hi all, how's it going? Singinglily I congratulate you on telling your mother how things stand. That parade ground voice sounds very useful!

Iris you really don't need to care for your mother. Christ no! Even if you were willing to give over that much time and effort to someone else, your mother is the worst person you could do it for, if that makes sense - because if it was someone she doesn't know doing that care, she'd be a damned sight nicer to them. There is absolutely no reason why you should have to throw yourself under a bus in this way.

I've been meaning to come on the thread for ages but now I've got two things to share - first of all, anyone a Chris Brookmyre fan? I've just read his newish book, Fallen Angel, and there's an eerily accurate depiction of a narcissistic mother in it. He actually recommends Toxic Parents in the afterword. I had the heebie jeebies reading it, and it might be a bit triggery for some people, but it is very well observed.

The other thing is that after aaaaaaages of silence, I've had another wee fishing attempt from my mother. (Backstory: I managed to time NC with a house move, thanks to some excellent advice on here from Atilla and others, and so my mother doesn't have any contact details for me.) I think it must be a good 2 years since I heard anything. She's asked a relative to get in touch, I batted it off fairly easily but I wonder if I'm going to hear any more now? My mother prides herself on holding grudges for a long time so I think she's probably been "maintaining a dignified silence" till now and expecting me to crack first, and I wonder if she's going to change tack now, specially as a couple of family members seem to have copped on recently that we're not in contact. I don't know.

toomuchtooold

Sorry to read about that fishing attempt. Glad to read that attempt also got batted away quite easily by you.

I would be prepared for more such attempts along perhaps with previously unknown health scares. Narcissists usually send such people, usually well meaning but ignorant and easily manipulated friends and family, in to do their dirty work for them. The flying monkey is not interested in hearing your side of things and their opinion can therefore be ignored.

Hello and welcome TheTickingTime!

@halloweenmaz Have you read any of the books on codependency? I also found codependency anonymous helpful as well.

Thank you so much for all of your replies. I guess that we have had similar experiences - people who have not had abusive parents really don’t understand. All they see is a nice, sweet, recently widowed elderly lady whose eldest daughter has abandoned her

@SingingLily I'm sorry for your loss, and thank you for your words of hope.