But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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January 2010
April 2010
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March 2011
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@ulterego yeah I’ll just play them at their own game, be interesting to see how it pans out. I asked my DD (12) if she’s heard from her gran and she said she hasn’t. She said that she thought it was weird that her gran hadn’t been in touch with her cos if it was her she would be worried that her grandkids might be anxious about what’s happened and so want to speak to them. Out the mouths of babes and all that eh? Dicks dicks dicks 😡
@sunshineandsnow defo doing the right thing ignoring the unwanted floral 'gift' 😖

@MarmadukeM I think when it becomes so obvious that the DC start to notice, that becomes the final final straw - it was for me.

when you can throw off the spell of FOG and call them out/call their bluff it becomes clear they dont have any real power, it was all just a kind of spell that they put you under.

(Being somewhat flippant here, I know that some of these 'spells' are more like deep rooted curses and very hard to get past)

@sunshineandsnow yep once they start on the kids it’s time for them to fuck right off. @ulterego it is a real
revelation to me, I wish I’d realised things sooner, I’ve basically spent the last decade tolerating them and fundamentally, nothing has changed. They are still self centred nasty arseholes. 😖

They haven't started on my DC as such, but when my 13yo was told she could go to the party (looooong story with its own thread) as long as she didn't tell or turn up with her mother (me) - my 13yo saw alll the pieces fall into place in front of her eyes.

@sunshineandsnow just unbelievable behaviour, but typical. Does your daughter understand the situation? I’m not sure how much to discuss about it with my DD (DS is 9 and is more concerned with mine craft than family dynamics ha ha) x

I never ever discussed it with the DC. They knew we had fallen out but not all the deep seated issues. I allowed them to continue to visit, thinking that allowing them to make their own choices was the best way. I panicked for years that they were going to be poisoned or damaged in some way...until now. When DD was told that, she came home and ranted about all the things that she hated about her grandmother...

And it's all the things I've ever thought and felt. She'd seen it all for herself and made her own mind up.

And never went to the party - I left that up to her too.

I think they overreach because they have absolute confidence that younger people will be unquestioningly deferential to the elders

Hi, I've been dipping in and out of this thread for a while now but never posted before. I have a mother with bipolar and I'm sure some other undiagnosed issues (possibly a personality disorder), and an enabling father.

My childhood was chaotic at times, but I never felt that they deliberately hurt me. They didn't do a good job of parenting but they were never malicious. However in recent years I've read a lot about dysfunctional families, PDs, the FOG, etc, and while it has been liberating in some ways, it has opened up a lot of old wounds.

I feel stuck between feeling resentment and anger towards them, and guilt for not seeing them enough. My mother, while not abusive or malicious, is extremely hard work and is very draining to be around. She has no other friends or family around and tells me she'd love to talk to me everyday as she's lonely. But that's because she pushes everyone else away. She has treated other people, including my sister, very badly in the past and has blamed it on the bipolar (pre-treatment). She was better with me but she's too attached and needy, and has no concept of normal, healthy boundaries or behaviour. There is no real mother daughter relationship there, when I see her I feel like I'm dealing with a small child. My dad is no longer living with her as he had to go into a nursing home.

I suppose it's the guilt that gets me. Some people here have had appalling childhoods with downright vicious parents, and it's obvious that they should cut contact. I'm just wondering how people in my kind of situation handle their parents.

Hi Cherrycee you’re right some people have had the most awful childhoods imaginable but we all experience our own, so your experience is just as valid as anyone’s.
It sounds very lonely and isolating where you are now. We’re all listening here, and reading your words with understanding.
You didn’t cause this situation and as you’ve described there’s nothing you can do to change your mother. You’re focusing on your mothers needs but you can absolutely focus on your own. If you decide to keep a relationship with her you can keep it practical and factual, focus on tasks and structures rather than emotions and unmet needs.

I’d say you need to get some objective real life talking support for yourself, and as much practical outside help for your mother as possible.

You can live your life and find some peace for yourself, as hard as that sounds. 💐

@sunshineandsnow yeah I was similar in that they knew that their dad didn't speak to their grandparents as they didn't get along but that was all they knew.
Yeah @ulterego I think that when it comes to the grandchildren what they don't account for is the fact that they have had a different upbringing to us so they are not conditioned to accept, without question, their mad behaviour. Something I'm happy about cos I think it shows we are doing a decent job of raising some emotionally healthy and happy kids.
Hi @Cherrycee , sorry you have found yourself here, your mum sounds like a real emotional drain on you, hopefully you will get some good advice on here. Make sure you read into the FOG, I've just finished it and it's very enlightening x

@Cherrycee how is your sister's relationship with your mother these days? Do you talk about it much?

Do you know what you would like to do about your parents? Do you want to just reduce contact a bit? I really like Captain Awkward for advice on how to manage difficult relationships - here's an example, although it's about siblings it has some good advice on how to reduce contact a bit.

@Cherrycee - you're in the right place. You are not the parent but you're cast in that role. That leaves wounds and scars. My father is an emotional vampire. he sucks the marrow out of his immediate family. My mum is his skipalong enabler and my DSis and I are his blood supply. I'm in my mid fifties and shocked to my core that since stopping contact with him I've been able to stay off anti depressants. My depression is in remission for the first time in my adult life because I'm not being manipulated, drained, emotionally abused. Try it. Happy to support you.

This thread opened my eyes years ago and the people on here are so wise and kind and supportive. Everyone here is actively promoting wellbeing and breaking the cycle so we don't pass this on to our own DC.

I feel stuck between feeling resentment and anger towards them, and guilt for not seeing them enough.

no concept of normal, healthy boundaries or behaviour. There is no real mother daughter relationship there, when I see her I feel like I'm dealing with a small child.

I'm just wondering how people in my kind of situation handle their parents.

Have you thoroughly checked out the outofthefog.website ? The (audio)book is really good too, and you'll likely get decent mileage from Susan Forward's "Toxic Parents".

It sounds like you're grieving your lost childhood. It's not black and white, there's no clear divide between abuse/neglect and "normal". Chaotic environments are extremely damaging to children as they are so unpredictable. The bodies HPA axis is permanently turned on, with cortisol and other chemicals causing inflammation, dousing the brain and body continuously. There was an experiment done on rats - the cage was shaken for two weeks at a specific time each day, then randomly over another two weeks. MRI scans showed CUTS (Chronic Unpredictable Toxic Stress) had a significant impact on the brain, and that's only two weeks.

It's not uncommon for parents with poor boundaries to literally say to their adult children "can you mother me now"?

My Mother has a history of mental illness, there's no question it played (plays) a part in her behaviour, but it's also a "get out of jail" card. She's incapable of love, support, respect, has poor boundaries and is a narcissist.

I've been VLC for a couple of years now, I see them a handful of times a year. Being in control of the dynamic is very satisfying, although it's extremely obvious she is complicit with my brother to attempt to put the pressure on, with my father enabling it all.

Oh goodness SimplySteve ‘can you mother me now’ - yes!
I thought about that the other day, my DM used to say she didn’t really think of me as a daughter now more as a friend, but you’ve hit the nail - she was looking for me to be more.
Really crappy friend. 🙁

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I did quite a lot of reading on Out of the Fog and have had some counselling in the past. I also started taking antidepressants recently as I felt like everything had got on top of me.

I think I did put some good boundaries in place, like I blocked mum's number because she used to ring me multiple times a day (often after midnight on a weekday). Now I see her once every 1-2 weeks and talk on the phone about twice a week. Seeing her is draining though because it involves bringing her to visit my dad, and as we all live a bit of a distance away it means spending about 4 hours with her every time. My sister helps out a bit, but she has a very strained relationship with her. She suffered the worst of mum's behaviour when she wasn't getting any treatment at all.

I feel like I've tried to pull back and do only the practical things (as Herocomplex said above) and not even attempt any emotional relationship with her. I've been doing this for a while but I still feel stuck, like the whole thing has just broken me down. It's really hard when I see my DP and my friends with their parents, and they have the kind of love and support that I'll never have.

Funny how you mention mothering them SimplySteve. I feel like I've been the responsible one for a long time, even before I was a teenager. As a young adult I felt so much responsibility to give us all as normal a life as possible, as I knew without me there they would slide into a terrible way of living (i.e. never cooking or cleaning, getting behind on bills, etc). Once I left home and became more independent, that's exactly what happened.

@Cherrycee, I'm seeing your mother as a huge jellyfish who just flops on you and crushes you and leaves you to take all the strain and do all the work, she just sounds like a massive burden, she completely failed to step up at all.
She deserves help support and compassion, but none of this should come from you, none of it at all. She pushes everyone else away because she much prefers to manipulate the people in whom she can induce guilt.
I'm not sure what the right thing to do is but I think I would want to say 'it's either me or you mother and it ain't gonna be me'
I think I would want to move very far away or find some way of distancing myself.

I think one of the things I get here is almost a through-the-looking-glass understanding that families can be damaging and hellish. Cherrycee you know how tough and lonely it is, and there is no right answer. Hope you feel some understanding from here, and the anti-d’s help. Take really good care of yourself, meet your own needs as well as you can - rest, exercise, food, good friends and as much love from those close to you as possible.

I’ve got an acquaintance staying with us right now, she asked if my parents visited often and what we were planning for Christmas. I said very simply that we didn’t really see eye-to-eye so I don’t see them at the moment. She gave the usual ‘but they’re your parents, you should go with what they say’, I asked her why she thought that. She then poured about out how awful her mum made her feel and how resentful she felt, and I suggested she might not want that anymore. Food for thought. You do you.

@Hero, the acquaintance who questioned your stance towards your parents, it sounds as if you have given her permission to question her parents, shone a light in the darkness and shown her that there is a pathway 🛤️
I nicked this quote from the out of the fog forum, it really speaks to me
Your goal is to become the Mythical Adult Daughter, seen about as often as a leprechaun riding a unicorn, and heard from maybe once, every other blue moon, if the year ends in a prime number
I can see that I've been working my way towards becoming the mythical adult daughter without really knowing it was a thing, this is my niche this is totally my niche
🦄🧚‍♀️

Thanks ulter. I just want people to think a bit about what they’re saying before they do all that ‘oh you should ring them and get together, surely it can’t be that bad’ nonsense.
The stories on here, like yours with so much pain, make me so much more careful about listening to what people say about their families before just trotting our the homilies.
Family Christmas? No thanks.

Mythical Adult Daughter - MAD!!!??!?

Thanks Ulterego and Hero - what you say makes a lot of sense. I just can't help feeling guilty. She's basically a helpless old woman now. We're lucky that the carers who used to visit my dad every day are still helping mum, but on a reduced schedule. She get very agitated if they try to do anything meaningful though, like a bit of cleaning or cooking. She's always sending them out to the shop. They go along with her so as not to upset her. I know this isn't my problem and I can't fix it but it's so frustrating.

It's great that you've given your friend something to think about Hero. It can be hard to get out of the mindset that you're obliged to help your parents.

I just can't help feeling guilty. She's basically a helpless old woman now
I hear you
seeing them frail, in decline, helpless is bound to trigger feelings of compassion and wanting to help, we all do get old and we all do decline, you cant make her 30 again (even if it seems like she wants to drink your blood to keep her young)
From what you say you've been the victim of a very dysfunctional upbringing, your first duty is to yourself to find a way to flourish and be whole.

It can be hard to get out of the mindset that you're obliged to help your parents
I think that people conflate 'I dont want to be a carer for my parents' with 'I think my parents should be abandoned'
these bastards are the victims of their own shit upbringings, they deserve help and compassion...from professionals who know what they are doing, NOT from their children to whom they have caused to much damage.
Victims should not be the ones to fix the perpetrators!

Absolutely true Ulter, but sometimes people don't see it when they're in the middle of it.