But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I've read so many times that everyone finds their passion in life, and then to run with it, but I just...haven't. Or rather maybe there's a couple of things that stand out but I'm so scared of failure I don't commit.

What are they @SimplySteveRedux? Your passions I mean? Maybe when you're awake at night you could start to replace the demons with thoughts of your passions instead? It doesn't have to be all at once but rather baby steps... I'm no expert but I'm trying the baby step thing and every day I'm dealing with the nonsense, it seems to be getting marginally easier.... It always seems so much easier to not try and to submit to what we're used to because that's how we're conditioned. But, what if....

Hello all,

I am a complete newbie here but I feel like I am at a stage now where I would like to talk about my upbringing and the situations I am currently finding myself in. I think I am looking for a bit of support really.

So, background (which I will try to keep brief) -

Brought up by Mum and Dad with one older DSister. Father was verbally/mentally abusive - blamed this on "work stress" and hating his job, however it felt more like he hated having children. Mother never did anything to protect us from his rage or the way he made us feel, she just stood by and watched.

I always believed that what we had as a family was "normal" because our parents were together and they hadn't split up, so I suppose I never questioned it until much later on in life.

I was bullied quite badly at school, so all my formative years were spent being bullied at school and then at home too. I don't have any happy memories from my childhood that I can recall.

My sister suffers quite badly with her mental health now and I believe our upbringing was a massive contributor to this.

My parents have never acknowledged our childhood or how bad it was for us, I think even if they were sat down and we explained to them how they had made us feel, they wouldn't believe it. They are in their own little world and tend to think throwing money at us fixes everything. I honestly believe that they think they did a good job at raising us.

Fast forward to now, I have been in therapy for around six months and it has been very helpful for me. I have unravelled the childhood stuff and it has brought me to where I am now. I don't really feel as though I need to cut my parents off completely, they are at a very long arms length anyway and that is fine by me. I have found that I don't really value anything they have to say anymore and I am generally uninterested in their lives.

I have another "toxic" family member who I am wanting to go no contact with - my Grandmother (mum's mum). It's hard to list everything she does without taking forever. To me, she is just rotten to the core. She spreads lies, says horrible things to me, plays family members off against each other for her own gain, tramples all over any boundaries I try to set.

DH and I have a 1 year old DD now too, (after losing our first son who was stillborn), and she believes that she is completely entitled to do whatever she pleases with DD and when I say no, then I am the evil one and this gets spread around the family. She pouts like a child when I say no to her requests and makes out that she is a victim, and how badly I treat her, when in reality, she asking for things that are impossible, i.e - she wants to hold DD while Grandmother is stood up (she uses a frame to walk) - I say probably not the best as DD is so heavy, why doesn't she sit down and have her on her knee - I get the evil looks and tuts and comments under her breath, "I'm not even allowed to hold her", etc etc.
I am just done with her attitude and behaviour and me having to repeatedly try to explain and defend myself, it's exhausting.

She has now started calling me every day and leaving voicemails, trying to get me to go to her house, with DD, because she "has a toy for her" - I don't wish to go, going there gives me anxiety, seeing her name pop up on my phone screen gives me anxiety. I am at the stage where I hate going to the house. The last time I went she said something nasty within the first couple of minutes, I wish I had just got up and left.

I haven't yet had the conversation with her, as I am not sure what I want to say, so I have just avoided answering the phone. I have a therapy appointment tomorrow and I will discuss this then too.

I also have a Grandfather, who is absolutely fine and lovely and I feel like it would be shame to not see him any more because of her, however they are both fairly house bound now and there isn't really any way of seeing one without the other, so I'm a bit stuck with that. G'dad is very old now, (90) and I feel quite aware that he probably doesn't have much time left, I just don't know what to do for the best.

And breathe. Thanks to anyone who reads that ramble and I hope it's ok for me to join you all.

Lola x

Hi @TheLolaMontez

This is such an incredibly supportive place to be! I'm VERY new to this process but have found this thread a wonderful help.

You're doing so well and going to a therapist to unpack everything sounds like it's really helping, that's awesome!

Vent away, it really helps to get things out on paper as it were. Your number 1 priority is your family unit of you, your DD and your DH so do whatever you need to feel happy and healthy in that unit. If going to your GM house is giving you anxiety, don't go. You are the mother and you're keeping your DD safe - physically and mentally.

I know the physical implications and the dread and knot in your stomach you're feeling so do what you need to protect yourself.

I'm sure someone will be along shortly with words of wisdom but I find it helps just to know someone actually understands.

Keep talking

TheLolaMontez

I would now block all means of this relative being able to contact you. I acknowledge what you say re your grandad but he has stood by and let this all happen to his family out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He is a not as nice as you think he is, he is a weak bystander of a man along with being her enabler/secondary abuser. He has certainly failed to protect his child (your mother) from her and in turn you as his grand daughter are being failed by him too. He made his choice many years ago and chose his wife over his daughter and you as his granddaughter.

Re your comment:-
"She has now started calling me every day and leaving voicemails, trying to get me to go to her house, with DD, because she "has a toy for her" - I don't wish to go, going there gives me anxiety, seeing her name pop up on my phone screen gives me anxiety. I am at the stage where I hate going to the house. The last time I went she said something nasty within the first couple of minutes, I wish I had just got up and left".

I presume you are referring to your grandmother here. You are an adult who has free will and can make choices. You do not have to go there at all and yes you should have got up and left. Would you have tolerated this from a friend, ask yourself that question too. Have a read too about fear, obligation and guilt and read the Out of the Fog website. If your grandmother is abusive and she indeed is so I can certainly see why her daughter i.e your mother is the self same and went onto marry someone as abusive as your own father. We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents.

A good rule of thumb here is that if a relative is too toxic/difficult/batshit for you to deal with, its the same deal for your child too. Your sibling and you have been and remain profoundly affected by your upbringing and it is now down to you to fully protect your child from such malign and toxic influences like your family of origin and your grandparents. Toxic crap like you describe can and does go down the generations; do not let your child further become affected by your family of origins' toxic behaviours.

@HockeyMom1974

Gaming - had a spell as a professional gamer.
Writing music.
Conceptualising and building websites - former career.

It's been so long since any of them that the fear of failure, of simply not being good enough, is palpable.

Thanks to both of you for your responses.

@AttilaTheMeerkat - yes I was referring to my GM in that comment and I know I should have been brave enough to just say I was leaving and doing so.

I have heard stories of my Grandmother slapping my mum around the face when she was younger and dating my father, for going out and getting back to the house at 11pm. My mum was 19 at the time.

From things I have heard, my Grandmother's father was abusive to her as a child and so the pattern continues.

I fully expect that she will try to recruit my mum into trying to persuade me into going there. I feel as though I am ready to deal with that when it comes though.

You are also completely right about my Grandfather - he has stood by and watched, just the same as my mum did with our dad. It is inexcusable, thank you for bringing that to my attention, it's amazing how someone else's perspective can shine a little more light on these things.

The last thing I want is for my DD to be surrounded by that kind of negative, toxic shit that our family seems to be infected with. I made the conscious choice a few months ago that me, DH and DD (plus my sister) are MY family now and the others are just unfortunate associates.

TheLolaMontez
The advice Attila gave you is very clear, it’s so simple. I think the thing to bear in mind is that you don’t have to do anything. You don’t need to call, or answer, you can just get on with your life.

Your GF already knows what his wife is like, he’s spent his whole life appeasing her, letting two generations of small defenceless girls take the abuse so that he didn’t have to. You don’t owe him anything, as devastating as that is to hear.

And if your GM says she doesn’t know what she’s done? She does, you told her, she just didn’t think it was worth hearing.

Best wishes to your family x

@SimplySteveRedux those passions all sound amazing and so creative, let yourself believe in them. You are allowed to enjoy your life and to excel. What would you say to a friend? Treat yourself like you would a friend! and on the flipside, the best that could happen is limitless... we put invisible harnesses on ourselves, time to break free. Even it's it just allowing yourself a thought a day, they will build.

@TheLolaMontez stellar advice from @AttilaTheMeerkat and @Herocomplex It's true, it's amazing how another person's opinion suddenly shines a different light on things that you've accepted as normal for so long.

Keep going, you can do it! You can't control anyone's reactions or actions, only your own. Enjoy your freedom!!

Thanks @HockeyMom1974 I am doing my best!

What do we do in situations such as family gatherings, etc? There are some members of the family that I do like and get on with, I suppose it's a case of meeting them separately?

This seems relevant to @TheLola's situation

the ramp up, 'Society treats older people as invisible, lower status etc, for a narc' getting older is a nightmare, if you thought they were mean when they were younger hold onto your hat folks, you haven't seen anything until you have dealt with an older narcissist'

she points out that we assume people will soften as they age but the narcissist just gets worse
the ego is just as hungry and fragile as when they were younger but now they have very few avenues to validation/gratification leaving a huge chasm.

To me it seems they are determined their time in the sun must last forever, they cannot bear to step aside and allow their children a turn in the limelight

TheLolaMontez
Hmm, family gatherings. My DPs have isolated us so beautifully from our wider family I don’t really have any family gatherings to go to. When I have to say something to acquaintances I keep it very quiet,dull and brief. Something like ‘we’re not in touch at the moment, and it’s not looking very optimistic’.
Some family members will be roped in as ‘flying monkeys’ anyway, given a big sob story and sent to beseech you to end your cruelty. Don’t argue your case, just blandly deflect them.
This is all a big learning curve, take your time. You’re owed it!

Oh god, ulter that’s so grim. I dread a visit from a nastier older version of DM. It’s my middle-of-the-night fear.
DH said he had a dream recently that he was helping my DF with some accounts, but my DF was clearly keeping two sets of ledgers and was very angry with DH when he pointed it out. Not difficult to interpret that!

Thanks for the video @Ulterego - some of those points certainly rang true to her and how she behaves, certainly the points about people helping and them "doing it wrong".

Sad, really. But I do feel glad that I am choosing to not be a part of it.

I prefer to avoid family gatherings so not being able to attend them is a bonus as far as I'm concerned.
Looking at my parent I can see that their need for gratification and validation were fulfilled by career and later on retirement all the adventure holidays, now with health problems starting to appear these are elevated as the thing that makes them important.
Very shocking and traumatic thing happened in my life, I can't say what it is, too identifying, I was blindsided by the cold mocking punishing response, I tried to rationalize it and explain it away surely they didn't mean to be that unkind that nasty, eventually I had to admit that they had deliberately chosen this response.
There was a sense of delightedly minimising trivialising and elbowing this out of the way to try and get me to focus on the things that are important to them.
My mind goes increasingly to revenge, you stupid old person did you really think you could get away with this.

Until this happened I was ready to step up and do the right thing but now they will sooner get blood from a stone than they will help from me.

It's true, it's amazing how another person's opinion suddenly shines a different light on things that you've accepted as normal for so long.

That's another way in which this thread helps. Sometimes it is only by reading other people's reactions that you feel able to reset your "normal" to one closer to what your own instincts are telling you. It helps you to see all the craziness for what it is.

Ulterego, whatever it was, your pain is still plain to see. Your parents just dismiss as unimportant anything outside their own experience or anything that doesn't directly relate to them, don't they? That lack of empathy, that "pull yourself together, what have you got to complain about" response is such a giveaway. They are not worth your time.

💐

I think that’s why (at the beginning before getting wiser) the idea of getting therapy with the narcissist is so seductive, that someone who knows about people and behaviour would get them to see how dreadful they are and how much damage they do, so they’d change and apologise.
Shame it doesn’t work like that.

Hi. I've posted about my family here before. My mum despite warnings from my sister and I that we were at the end of our tolerance is continuing to drink and then call us to try and start arguments. Her latest thing is centred around my daughter starting school next week. She wants to come and take her to school and essentially make it all about her. (Possibly cruel on my part but it always plays out the same) I know for a fact that if she did travel for 2 hours(!) to drop my daughter off she'd be crying and hand wringing and i don't want to give my daughter any hangups about school drop off as she's currently really excited and positive about it.
Anyway. Mum called me last night (having had a drink) and then asked why she couldn't take her. I told her that I wanted DD to get into a routine quickly and as it wasn't going to be her that drops her off at school every day then it would confuse the situation for someone who won't ever be dropping her off to randomly be involved at day 2. (The day she suggested) I was polite but I firmly said that I think she's making this about what she wants more than what is the best for DD. She then kept repeating that DD had 'asked her if she wanted to come into her school' and that she wanted to come and go inside the school. I pointed out that DD is 4 and doesn't really have an understanding of school protocol and that adults can't really just wander in on the say so of 4 year olds.
I ended the call by reminding her that there will be Christmas fairs and the like which will give her an opportunity to look around then. (This was at 9pm)
Just woken up now to find that she clearly continued drinking and called me at 2am and 3.30am leavung voicemails on the same subject!?
Sorry for the long post- just very irritated by it all.

Don't apologise, Karigan, you've done the right thing. You've put your DD first. Stick to your guns.

You've also tried to reason with your mother but she's not listening. Her emotions and her need to "prove" she's a wonderful grandmother - when her actions show she is anything but - are more important to her than anything else in the world right now, including your DD.

It is indeed frustrating but you've done your best with her. Now it would be reasonable for you to ignore.

karigan from the outside the first thing that occurs to me is what if she turned up drunk? And I'd be tempted to say that to her, but actually it's just another reason for her to argue with.

Would she turn up anyway if you said no? I wonder if you are trying to find the right form of words to get her to not come and to be happy not to come, and I don't think that exists. If she's going to be pissed off and phone you for a rant, but she's not going to turn up and make a scene, claim thatbas a win - and then block her number, because you don't deserve to have to be a punchbag for anyone let alone a full grown adult.

Thanks both. :) Yes it's exactly like that- she is constantly trying to compete with either my dad or my DH's parents to be 'best grandparent.' Also she uses my DD as bragging rights with her acquaintances so she's obsessed about /every/ milestone and tried to push for her doing it sooner than she's ready for because 'X's grandchild can do that. Which always leads onto my 'parenting failures'

I don't think she'd turn up regardless- she's very concerned about 'what people might think' (not myself or DH or my sister though!) Some of the biggest fallouts we've had with her is when she's made little snide comments or done something she's been asked not to in public and we've called out her out on it in the same way we'd do at home.