But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi karigan

Your mother is a drunkard and its not your fault she is the ways she is. You did not cause that to happen. Alcoholics can be and are some of the most selfish people going and I would strongly suggest your DD and you are not at all subjected to her further. She is already using your child to get back at you for your so called parenting fails whereas it is she who has really failed here.

Quite apart from now blocking her, I would also suggest you contact Al-anon and attend their meetings if you have not already done this.
You have stated that you are at the end of your tolerance in her continuing to drink so stand firm on this point. What are your boundaries like with regards to your mother and for that matter your dad too. What was it like for you growing up in your house with your parents?

@karigan - you're absolutely on target that she wants to make your daughter starting school all about her. Don't let her near. Your instincts on this are sane and healthy and putting your daughter first. Hers aren't.

karigan you’re being so nice, this day is for your DD and you. Your DM had her turn with you on your first day!

Did your DM ask anything about you, and how you’re feeling about it?

I’m sorry you’re having to deal with her. Hope your DD settles in well and enjoys school.

They are not worth your time
Thank you @Singinglily, for telling it like it is 🙏

@karigan, with your mother is it feasible to refuse to engage with her at all if she is under the influence of alcohol?
Definitely keep her well away from the school drop-offs and pick-ups, perhaps go for blunt and say no it's not happening rather than give her explanations which she uses to try and wrestle you down?
In some respects explaining yourself put you in a subordinate position because the implication is that you are accountable to that person, 'never explain never apologise' can be a stronger position to take.

Karigan

Would not JADE with your drunken mother; i.e. justify, argue, defend or explain.

Morning all,

I have had three consecutive missed (ignored) phone calls from the GPs today - I have now blocked their number.

My mother asked me last night if she could come to my house, I said no as DH was under the weather but I have no doubt that she is going to be my first flying monkey.

According to my sister (who spoke to mother on the phone last night), grandfather doesn't believe I can be busy, he seems to think I am sitting at home all day, vegetating.
GM is becoming increasingly insistent that she wants to give me this rabbit - she claimed that I asked for it for DD (I did not), then she said my mother said I wanted it - she did not.
The rabbit is just a vehicle for dragging me there, which I won't be doing.

GM is nothing without children. Her while purpose is to be a "mother figure" and so, she craves seeing DD and yet wants nothing to do with me, I suspect because I am too old now to be mothered. She clings to anyone who has children so they can fulfil her "I must be a mother" complex.

I don't wish to be a part of that.

Grandfather doesn't believe I can busy
And? what do the beliefs of your grandfather have to do with anything!
The implication here is that you have to justify yourself to your grandfather, that you are beholden to them and that you have to obey them unless you can come up with a reason that they approve of.

I agree the rabbit's just a device to get you into her house, just don't engage with her or it
all this I must be a mother stuff sounds completely batshit, it might be funny (although probably a bad idea in the long run) to get her a baby doll to play with, I certainly wouldn't trust her with a real one!
Her cravings are not your problem.
it sounds like you're on top of things generally though @TheLolaMontez

Something of an aside but it does strike me that we give our parents way too much credence much of the time, perhaps we like to think of them as kings and queens because that means we can see ourselves as Princes and princesses?

You're completely right @Ulterego - I try to let it all just wash over me and not allow myself to rise to their batshit behaviour.

GM is completely mental. I am convinced of that.
She clings to people who have children who she doesn't even know. I witnessed her squeezing a child so hard he looked uncomfortable and her saying "you must come and see me, you must come and see me more" the poor kid looked petrified.

I don't allow her to hold DD, she's just too much. That won't be a problem for us now anyway.

Reading what you say about your grandmother Lola im getting an image of the witch in Hansel and Gretel
😱

In fact maybe that's what this is all about, old people trying to devour their young

Urgh, shudder at the thought! It made me feel very uncomfortable when I witnessed her gripping and clinging onto that poor boy.

My uncle passed away earlier this year (GM's son), since then my uncle's wife has been helping them out and doing lots of favours for them, out of some sort of duty to her late husband.

The contrast between how GM treats me and Auntie is astounding. She's all sweet, doughy eyed to auntie (because she panders to her) and she's a mean old witch to me because I don't do anything for her. Couldn't have been more obvious the last time we were both in their company.

I'm loving all the strength being gathered from this thread! The sharing of experiences is so incredible and familiar.

@karigan well done for standing your ground and putting your DD first. Your Mother is all about turning things around and making it about HER isn't she? I can almost imagine her Lording it around the school yard. Urgh and shudder, the memories, the mistakes I've made by wanting to include my Father and enabling Mother to not be the bad guy. When, in fact - you're being the good guy here and putting your DD first.

@Herocomplex was spot on - she's had her first day of school with you - now it's yours and your daughter's turn.

This thread is awesome!

Above mentioned auntie is at my Grandparents now - she has just messaged me this:

"Hi lola,
I’m at your grandparents just now and they want to let you know the toy rabbit is ready for DD, I think they’ve tryed ringing but not managed to catch you. Hope you’re all well. Lots of love xxx"

I haven't replied.

Auntie here is being used as a flying monkey. Often these are people, usually relatives, who can be nice but far too easily manipulated into doing the narcissist's dirty work for them.

Good on you for not replying; keep up the radio silence and continue to resist all attempts.

Do you think I should reply to auntie? I do get on with her very well, however I think she is too nice for her own good and is probably easy to manipulate.

She hasn't witnessed the side of them that I have and no doubt she will have been told some sob story or other about why I have not answered their calls.

Would not respond to auntie either.

reward Auntie for good behaviour (ie anything not related to the batshit people) ignore bad behaviour

@karigan Al-anon is a really good source of support. You can't change her behaviour, you can only control how you respond to it.

@TheLolaMontez She won't believe their behaviour until she witnesses it so it's pointless to try and counter their sob story with her.

Thanks for the advice :) I've not heard of JADE- I'll try to remember that. I've not been to Al-anon but I am having counselling where I am unpacking a lot of my childhood issues and my mum's drinking which is helping loads I think.

I've done pretty well with boundaries regarding my mum - I've explained that I won't talk to her when she's been drinking and is abusive and the second she starts I now put the phone down and block her number and unblock it 1-2 weeks later- seems to do the trick. Unfortunately my DH was convinced he could get her to see the light (I think he interpreted mine and my sister's refusal to engage with her when drunk and abusive as 'avoiding the argument' rather than the only semi successful way of dealing with her we've come to after decades of dealing with her shit. Sadly this led to him giving her his number early this year (something I've managed to avoid until my early 30s- I've always had the sole phone by which she can contact us) and now every few months they will have massive 3 hour+ argument on the phone which winds him up for ages afterwards so she's managing to wriggle into my life through a backdoor.

My parents divorced when I was 21 but had lived separately for years beforehand. My dad has changed address, phone number and email address so he doesn't have any way for her to contact him. He is ok but was so keen for there to be no conflict in the house that he ignored the fact that there absolutely was and tended to not be there other than at weekends (where we went on trips to garden centres, national trust properties etc etc) He only ever got involved in an argument with mum.once when I was 17 and I said I would call the police if he didn't do something- mum had tried to shove her way into my room repeatedly until about 1am and when she eventually got in belted me across the face.
He turned a blind eye to her drink driving with me and my sister in the car when we were kids, even when she mounted the kerb and smashed a wing mirror off on a lamppost. I've got minimum contact with her since leaving home - she goes through 18 month period where she isn't as bad then it all comes crashing down. She is supervised constantly with my daughter because I don't trust her which she won't accept when she's asked me why and I've told her bluntly. There's a lot of the standard alcoholic rhetoric 'everyone is against me etc etc'

I've made DDs school aware that she isn't to be trusted with DD at all and they've put a note on her file that I've said she expressly does not have my permission to collect DD from school (not that I think she would- she's just very erratic sometimes and I'm trying to plan for the worst.)

Sorry it's long- hard to explain succinctly. Thank you for listening.

@AttilaTheMeerkat Thank you for setting up the new thread! Have been quiet on here as week has been manic. No word from NFather since his last series of emails. Although there's always a chance of some communication out of the blue, I really don't anticipate any word from him, as he's now managed to have the last word (in his view) and I strongly believe he doesn't care enough to chase me. So my anxiety is slowly settling down, I'm feeling that the dust is settling, and I can start to enjoy the obligation fade away and focus on moving forward and looking after me.

Hopefully I'll be around over the weekend to offer support to anyone who needs it, although this thread is moving super quickly right now - I'll have to play catch up.

Warm wishes to everyone, and hugs to anyone who feels they need one

@karigan Do you think DH could be persuaded to block her/change his number? He doesn't need that stress and nor do you!!

What's your relationship with your father like these days? It's a shame he couldn't support you or protect you when you were growing up; perhaps if he hadn't enabled her she would have hit rock bottom and sought help for her drinking. The storg you shared about her belting you is really horrible - I'm so sorry you suffered that This is one of the reasons I finally decided to tell my narcissistic father what I think of him: my mum always enabled him and we always had to protect his feelings so he never learned to take responsibility - I finally realised that in his late 50s, maybe it's time I stop protecting him/enabling him too. It's great that you've put those boundaries in place with your mum and I hope you get your DD into her routine with no upset and drama from you mum.

@karigan It's difficult to understand if you haven't grown up with it. They can't be argued with and can't be reasoned with so your approach of as little contact as possible is the only way. My step-father used to drink drive with us in the car (he was caught by the police and banned in the end).

Oh, not ignoring everyone by the way! I am reading but just don't have any advice/don't want to say the wrong thing! Living with an alcoholic I know about!

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm not going to reply to the message.

I have seen the therapist this evening who was very supportive of my decisions. Feeling like I'm on the right track.