But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
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May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

It sounds like you’ve orientated yourself so entirely towards your mothers wants and needs that you’ve lost your sense of worth. What she did to you, your DF and your DD sounds so maliciously manipulative. Time for some changes, reduce your exposure to her. Why did your DF go? What does he say about her? Did he leave you to deal with her because he couldn’t?
Protect yourself and your DD.

Veryupset i recognise what you say about inserting herself as the middleman! If i mention in passing 'oh, i was thinking of asking stepdad X' she will immediately start with the dire warnings. 'Oh no dont he's very tired at the moment, i'll have to sell it to him' or something like that. Blowing it way out of proportion, and i've said before that hes a big boy mum he doesnt need you policing all his interactions. She complains of stress a lot, but then gives herself these extra tasks

I don't know if I'm making sense.

It makes complete sense, Veryupset. What you and Pukeworthy describe is triangulation - your mother controlling information (and distorting it) by making sure all communication goes through her rather than you and your father speaking directly to one other. My mother does it all the time. It gives her ample and endless opportunities to sow doubt, misunderstanding and discord, leaving the rest of us scratching our heads and wondering how a simple comment could end up causing so much upset.

It's exhausting. No wonder you are worn down by it. This time, though, your mother's shenanigans caused entirely avoidable and unnecessary upset to your little girl and as per usual, your mother can't see the problem with that. Or rather, she can see there's a problem - but it can't possibly be her at fault so it has to be you, your father and (this makes me so angry on your behalf) your little girl.

Now that you know your lovely little daughter is starting to be affected by her grandmother's toxic behaviour, time to start putting stronger boundaries in place. As Hero points out, everything you've written speaks of how much you love and care for your DD. You are determined to be the caring, nurturing and protective mum that she needs and deserves - and all credit to you, because you certainly can't look to your own mother as a role model for this.

I'm hoping that you managed some sleep last night and that this morning, you feel a little stronger. It won't always be like this. Things can and will get better.

Pollyglot, I hope you are feeling a little stronger today too. Don't torture yourself by thinking ahead about all the "if onlys". Just deal with each day as it comes and let tomorrow take care of itself. That's how I got through it. You will too.

Good morning, Asschercut, and welcome.

Veryupset I believe they thrive on this discord and that's why they do it. I don't know if this will strike a chord with you but my mother used to arrange these little scenes where she would (expect to) be blamed for something but would habe plausible reasons why it wasn't her fault. Like when the kids were little she would offer to do some domestic job to help me out and then break something ornleave it in a dsngerous state. If I said anything she would go away pretending to feel like she had been viciously attacked just for trying to help out. It was bizarre. Every time she visited I would find something that she had broken and I would be like "oh there's the thing she wants to fight about, better order a new one" and then she would be in a weird mood till she left. She escalated it then and did something to my DD that was both unkind and plausibly deniable and I went NC. I'm sure she tells people she was cast out because of this small mistake that anyone could have made. I suspect she even prefers it like that.

So I totally get it. You can't prove it but you know in your heart and from your experience that this is what she does i.e. she manufactures situations that cause. tension and unhappiness for you and your DD. I don't know what the hell they get out of it, really.

It’s so strange reading about how all these ‘small’ things that happen have so much effect on us. My mother used to do things in my house without asking which caused problems. I never said anything about most of them, yet they would lower my mood so much. She was much more aggressive in my sisters’ house, actively doing things she’d been told not to.
It’s hard to explain to people who haven’t been through it why something as normal as helping or giving come with so much emotional load.

Omg - the 'helping', yes! Mine will help, but she does it in a triumphant 'oh darling, cant you look after yourself' kind of way that makes you feel shit. Like i have anxiety about how clean the house is and i tried to bath dd and put her in clean clothes just before we see grandma. I still got tut tutted about things so recently i switched to sending her over filthy with a pile of washing to be done

Oh puke it doesn’t matter what you do, she’ll make it a problem. It’s the game for narcissists. Concentrate on you and your daughter. Was it *ulterego’ who described it as turning down contrast? Being always on your guard waiting for the next bit of crap to come your way is so exhausting.

Quoting myself feels narcissistic Hero(🙊😲🙊) but I think you might be referring to this?
'golden child or black sheep.... both are pawns in the games of the the narcissistic parents, they manoeuvre and manipulate the children into these extreme and contrasting positions because of the tension and the drama that can be created by so doing'
I think they find the drama interesting and entertaining it gives them something to work with and feeds into their sense that they are important and central to everything, I see them as children playing with toy soldiers, setting up battles just to amuse themselves.

I am finding EMDR very interesting, it feels a bit like hypnosis it feels a bit like the trance like state that's psychics and mystics go to when they get 'messages'
That's just my take on it and I have always been very interested in 'the woo side' (entertainment purposes only!)

That’s all true I think! I thought I remembered you talking about turning down a brightly coloured screen to dull uninteresting colours, like turning down the contrast on your relationship with Them.
And it’s not narc, your voice was ignored for too long! Speak up! Bloody shout! You can!!!

I wonder if frightened children do have more of an interest in magical thinking/higher powers? I know there was a great thread on day-dreaming recently, getting away from real life into imagination.

Lovely to you one minute and then cruel to you the next, the contrast between the highs and the lows serves to make everything more intense and increases the power of the narcissist, *he can make you feel intense pain and then intense pleasure, he loves the feeling of God like power, it feeds him.
The victim thinks 'he can't be a bad person or he wouldn't be so lovely to me' not realising that the purpose of the loveliness is to increase the pain of the cruelty.
The loveliness also serves to make you drop your defences so that the attacks are completely unimpeded, you are blindsided every time.
With the charismatic narcissist you are also addicted, this magnetic person is focusing all their attention on you, it is very intoxicating and I think it in part explains why people find it hard to cut ties with certain types of predators.
(*Or she)

Do yous not think that they totally 'get off' on causing misery and discord amongst others? My stepfather gets real pleasure out of seeing others fail. He doesn't even try to hide it! I remember a former friend of theirs who they fell out with (because the friend had made the unacceptable decision of refusing to pick a 'side' after my mothers affair and remained friends with the other couple also, which led to them being discarded by my mother and stepfather). Anyways, this former friend got bowel cancer and died, and my stepfather said sarcastically 'couldn't have happened to a nicer man' . Lovely! We remained friends with the mans wife and when I mentioned her not so long ago my mother told me 'oh you should have heard what she said about your wedding, she said it was cheap' nice! Even if she did say this (doubtful) then why tell me?! I have been married 16 years so it really wasn't even relevant. Anyway, my point is that they only seem to get true pleasure from seeing others be as miserable as they are. And they are utterly miserable on the inside I'm sure. I bet your parents get really jealous about your successes too? Partly they like it as it's something they can brag about but underneath they resent it and sometimes they slip and show their true feelings. I remember feeling guilty about telling my mother about my holiday and stuff as I felt like she would be all jealous and thinking 'look at her,, swanning about going here and there'. I showed her a kettle I had bought (cos she was shopping online for a new one) and she remarked 'oh you rich bitch' cos it cost 40quid. It's sad really.

I'm with you now Hero😊 I went off on completely the wrong tangent!
I think that was a technique for reducing the amount of headspace that a toxic person is taking up, things like having a photo of them and and gradually editing it so that you turn it from colour to black and white and then fading to nothing, I have also copied text messages onto a document on my PC and then turned the colour of the text from black into white so that I can't see it or made the font so small that it disappears.

Deleting the text without even reading it feels much more powerful BUT there may also be reasons for monitoring the behaviour of the toxic person, remember every time they send you a communication they are giving away information about themselves and you can use that to refine your strategy for protecting yourself. By not responding to any of these communications you are giving them as little information as possible, it's a way of flushing them out and getting them to reveal themselves and it can potentially put you in a stronger position although the amount of head fuckery that goes on with toxic people can make it very difficult to feel as if you are the one with the power.
Other rituals include things like mock funerals (🙊) I think they are ways of communicating with the unconscious mind, although if you were of the wiccan persuasion you might call it a spell🧙‍♀️

My stepfather gets real pleasure out of seeing others fail.

Or always being right, or proved right, or (if you turn the facts upside down and inside out and squint through a time machine and bend the facts to suit and totally rewrite history) having been right^^ then or right now or...well, you get the drift.

I used to think it must be exhausting for such people, lugging such a massive mental scoreboard around with them, keeping score, getting even, getting more points than everyone else in the world. Winning at life.

Now I realise that actually, they probably just live in the moment. Their "truth" is whatever serves them best right now and so they have no qualms about changing tack as long as they are always on top.

It's only exhausting for the rest of us because we are rational and try to make sense of it all. If we dare to disagree, it's a personal affront and must be shut down by any means possible. Hence, you are wrong, it didn't happen, you made it up, your memory is faulty, you are over-sensitive.

It didn't happen you made it up
...and if it did happen it doesn't matter because you don't matter, the only thing that matters is what they want and what serves them, you are a mere pawn in the game
and yes they make it up as they go along because they are accountable to no one and their whims are law

Omg Ulterego the way you explained the contrasting effect makes a huge difference to my understanding.. so do I think this is all calculated ?

Do you think *

@AttilaTheMeerkat

Thank you again for starting this thread. It's been a busy one - less than two months in, and it's already nearly full.

Please could you start a new thread? I'd offer but I'm not brave enough

do I think this is all calculated?
MrsNot, I think in some cases it is completely unconscious/'instinctive’ behaviour, however the most sophisticated and dangerous predators are consciously aware of the techniques that they use and so they are better able to refine and tailor them.
My guess is that in most cases these people don't have enough insight or self awareness to be consciously and deliberately strategizing, they shoot from the hip and they are easy to spot (once you know what to look for) it's the snipers that are the most dangerous... I would think?

I think it's learned rather than calculated, in a lot of cases. It works, it gets them what they want - so they repeat it. And we fall for it.

Hope its ok to post here. Recently realised my mum has a lot of narcissist traits. Not sure if shes full blown narc though. Over the past few months I tried to slowly edge away and not rely on here for any emotional support because shes incapable of it.

Today however she told me about a fight between my sister and her fiance. My sister ended up hitting her fiance so hard it hurt his neck. I said to my mum i dont think thats a good place for my nephew to grow up in. He is only 5 weeks but their relationship isnt the best. Her reply was well i used to hit your dad in front of you and you're not scared for life. I said thats not true actually I hated it. She couldnt say anything to that so instead told me that i was and still am a sensitive person!! I just repeated no your wrong im not. So then changed the subject.
So i'm fuming that shes naive to the fact that my parents abusive toxic relationship hasnt had any damage on me. Its had so much damage on me and also attacking me and minimising saying im sensitive!!

She also said well all couples fight and have differences. Trying to make out that this behaviour was normal. Ususally i'd be upset and doubt my feelings but i know that their relationship and my sisters is not healthy. And i am angry that she would try to turn it on me!

I've finally got a counselling appointment so cant wait to let it all out in my sessions.

I hope everyone is doing ok

Hi Pumpkin, it's great that you are strong enough to face her down like that, you're totally right she is normalizing and minimizing violence because she cant stand to be in the wrong, she holds herself above all of you and refuses to be accountable.
I wish I'd had the strength to tell it like it is when I was younger.
That sounds very concerning about your sister and her partner:(
What she is saying is that violence is fine as long as you're not 'scarred for life' I wonder what sort of condition you would have to be in for her to count it as 'scarred for life'?
Makes me think of my mum who seemed proud that she never hit me round the head, that was her red line, she drew it to suit her own purposes.
You can draw your own red lines

Thanks @Ulterego im only just getting brave. Its took me a long time and since realising i have seen it more clear in my head that this isn't normal. Counselling also helped with my confidence. I still have a long way to go but i refuse to let her tell me it was normal. It definitely was not.

Yes i know, it feels like my sister is in exactly the same relationship as my parents. The dynamic is the same. I really do not want my nephew growing up to think this is ok. I don't my sister to ever take her anger out on him either. So i am slightly concerned.

I think they are naive aren't they. Your mum thinking because she didn't hit you round the head was fine. When actually it wasn't.

I agree, it looks as if your sister is just acting out the same abusive behaviour that she was subjected to, instead of processing it, seeing it rationally through adult eyes, she has internalized it.
As I understand it this tends to happen when we experience things that are overwhelming and traumatic as children so it could be that with therapy she could address her issues, however abusive people can be resistant to admitting they have a problem, they enjoy dominating and instinctively reject any notion that they have a problem.

I think in my mother's head whatever she does is right, because...well just because, she doesnt analyse any further than that!