But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

SingingLily Thankyou so much. This gives me hope

In the Guardian today: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/oct/07/i-was-an-intruder-what-its-like-to-be-your-parents-least-favourite-child?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

That’s an interesting read. Although I was the more favoured of the two of us my mother would often be cross with me because I was so like my father. She didn’t speak to me for months once when I was a teenager only because she’d fallen out with him.
At the time I just endured it, now I wonder why I didn’t just leave. Go anywhere, away from them.

It was your normal, Hero, then the assumed family loyalties kick in, and the Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

You're out now, you know the score and you have your self-agency. Much respect

I was the golden child. Being the black sheep is extremely painful of course (my poor DSis 😔) but it is also good to see the press writing about the impact that the 'favoured' position has on the child - love was precarious and conditional on becoming exactly like the parent. Fuck that. It feels finally like the fog is clearing.

golden child or black sheep.... both are pawns in the games of the the narcissistic parents, they manoeuvre and manipulate the children into these extreme and contrasting positions because of the tension and the drama that can be created by so doing.

I was a golden child in the eyes of my grandparents..... until I grew up and refused to toe the line, after that I was persona non grata🙄
Bunch of fucking bastards, good fucking riddance!

I think I have occupied both positions over the years. What strikes me about these narc type of people is their very stark 'black or white' thinking. So you are either all good or all bad. I'm all bad currently and happily staying that way. I don't have the time, energy or desire to grovel my way into their good books anymore. Their loss. Therapy is slowly but surely helping me work things out, it's like picking over the carcass of a boiled chicken, picking the meat off and then chucking the old bones away. That's how it feels to me, anyways. Can I ask, other people who are working their way through their past relationships with narc parents, I have had a bit of a revelation that, even now at the age of 40, their is a part of me (not a rational one) that says to myself 'well you must be a bad person/have acted really badly in the past for them to treat you like this now'. Anyone else struggle with this? Even though rationally you know that you didn't? It's tied up in the self doubt I think which hopefully will start to lessen too but I think it's a pivotal part of what has kept me bought into their crank versions of events, going along with it and capitulating, apologising, accepting.

Anyone else struggle with this?

Yes, oh yes, Marmaduke, regularly.

Am I being unreasonable? Have I misremembered or did I misunderstand the things that happened? Were they just doing their best? Should I be the bigger person and forgive, gloss over, let it wash over me? Did I do something to deserve it? Maybe I'm the problem, not them?

Then I go back at look at my journal, the one I started scribbling when the scales first fell from my eyes. There is one section reserved for my most upsetting memories - ones I've never shared, either on here or with my nearest and dearest. And reading that pulls me up sharp.

There is no reasonable or rational explanation for some of the things my parents said or did. There is no defence. None. And my mother's behaviour now is entirely consistent with how she behaved when I was a vulnerable child and teenager, so it's not my imagination at work.

Doesn't stop the self-doubt, though. It's how we've been conditioned.

@MarmadukeM
@SingingLily

Can relate to so much of what you say about the self doubt. I am currently in that loop myself. I haven't spoken to my mother in six weeks and still feel 'but is it really my fault?'
Also agree about the black and white thinking.

What i have realised is that an incident recently has shown me my mother's real beliefs about me as a person. She believes I am a liar, not to be trusted, that there is something fundamentally bad and wrong about me. No amount of talking to her or reasoning with her will change that. She paints on a positive 'loving' face when it suits her, but the truth is, she really despises me. That is hard to accept. I cannot have a relationship with her if that is her fundamental belief and it can't be changed.
Like you, Singing, I will remember particular incidents or things she has said, and realise that really, there is no excuse and no way to make sense of what happened.

I actually think we become brainwashed into believing our own badness.
Even when I am relating things to my counsellor, I am still making excuses for my parents in my head. and wondering how I was responsible for what happened.

Yes Marmaduke, I spent most of my life thinking it was me that was wrong. I was convinced I was not worthy of anything good, other girls were ‘proper’ girls, maybe there was a trick to it that I didn’t understand. I still have massive self-doubts, I’m always taken aback by nice things being said about me, I think they just don’t know yet how shit I really am.

And I’ve done lots of work on myself.

It’s why I’m so grateful for you amazing lot with your reality check.

At least you are now taking positive steps to bring it out into the open by talking to your counsellor, Frazzled. That really does take some courage.

Your previous post about the warm feeling of going home sounding like an abstract idea, Hero - oh yes, I know that feeling too.

Yes marmaduke and singing. Ulter I'm black sheep now, it's helped me understand the abuse.

Feeling very grateful for this group, especially today (((you all))).

Sorry didn't refresh before replying! frazzled and hero same same . When does the self doubt go? Those abusers aren't doubting themselves I imagine. It feels unfair and the self blame and doubt cripples me sometimes. I've just moved and not given my parents my forwarding address. It's not that dramatic, they can ask for it if they want to. But they haven't asked yet and I'm glad. The new house feels happy and unsullied.

@Frazzledandconfused I don't know if deep deep down somewhere your mother does know that you are not a liar etc but to accept that then she will have to admit to herself that she has shortcomings, isn't perfect etc. And this is the thing with them, they just can't do it. They project all their inside horrible shit onto the people around them and you either have to put up with it or you are 'out'. I was worrying a bit about my mother today, feeling a bit guilty, thinking 'oh she will be all miserable up in her caravan because of what I've done (ie stood up for myself) and then I caught that thought and thought, is she worrying about me? Doubtful! The dynamic of the relation is so skewed and wrong. Anyways, my therapist said that a good gauge to use when I start doubting myself is 'would I do this to my children?' And then I get my answer as to whether the behaviour of my parents has been ok or not. And the answer is always 'no, would I hell treat her like that, it's unimaginable'. So that helps me. X

Marmaduke, I agree, 'would I do this to my children' is a really good gauge!
The answer is always 'hell to the no'😲 but still there is this lingering feeling that I must somehow have deserved this, that they are somehow justified😣
I suppose thats down to years and years of conditioning, the ever-present subtle and sometimes not so subtle messaging that we internalized.
Trying to figure out what is going on with these people ..... I think it could be to do with having not properly processed things, and a foundational/ inherent /default belief that they are in the right, they just never question themselves, all problems must by default be caused by other people.
When they are questioned or challenged their unconscious defence mechanisms spring into operation and the light of consciousness never gets into those dark corners.
Perhaps it's also to do with a predatory and dominating mindset... they never compromise they only ever try to conquer?
Well that's my 'back of an envelope' theory 🤷🏼‍♀️😊

@Ulterego I agree. I think that as far as we are concerned it is a very tricky task for us to unlearn the behaviour that we have had ingrained in us that we had to adopt to protect ourselves as kids. I think the key to us being 'ok' with our decisions to be NC or whatever is to feel validated. But as you say, even when some things are so glaringly obviously wrong with our parents we still can't help but have that voice saying 'you deserved it' or 'she's such a nightmare' etc etc. My therapist said the other day that going NC was not me killing the relationship, it was just me being the one to acknowledge that it wasn't salvageable. I think something that can help also with those intrusive 'maybe I'm as bad as they say' thoughts is to look at the other relationships in your life; do work colleagues have a problem with you? Your partner? Your kids? Do you have friends? Surely to god if we can have happy children, successful careers and relationships with other decent humans then we are decent people?! That Pete walker book is really good at explaining about our 'inner critic' which is what the parent has installed in us. So all the nasty self doubt messages we have flitting about in our heads and what not. He tells you to treat it like your actual parent is speaking to you and tell it to 'shut up' and that you aren't afraid of it anymore. It's kind of effective sometimes if you give it a go X

My mother gave up her job, friends and everything to stay at home with me. She’s very proud that I was never ever babysat. She completely fails to understand the pressure that put on me. She had nothing except me so I couldn’t grow up and leave because it would leave her with nothing. I felt guilt and shame about growing up. I isolated myself from other teens because normal young adult behaviour made me feel guilty about growing up.

I was in my 20s before I couldn’t take the pressure any more and I moved out. She still visited my flat every day even if I wasn’t in, to tidy up. I’ve never dared to move more than half an hour away because she’d be devastated. I’m currently a SAHM and she turns up most weekdays for a coffee and often hangs around for hours. If I’ve made plans to go out she wants to come. I arranged to meet a mum friend to take our babies for a walk and my mother wanted to come, she didn’t understand why that was weird and she was really upset when I said no.

Despite considering herself to be the perfect mother, she still stopped me having hobbies etc because she wanted to spend the money on cigarettes. She gets angry if I point that out and says she gave up everything for me and cigarettes are all she had. She also forced me to go to school for years despite being bullied every day, and told me not to talk about it because it upset her to think I wasn’t happy. Same as when I had PND, she was angry and upset that I was failing to be perfect - how dare I have PND because it made her feel upset that I wasn’t happy. And she’s angry that I’m considering returning to work, because she thinks a woman should dedicate herself to her child and it’s disgusting that I would fob DC off to a nursery or babysitter. How dare I want to have a life because that totally invalidates her choice not to have one!

DH and I have talked about where we’ll move to after she dies.

I would move before she dies. Such people do not change and she will continue to treat you poorly.

AthollPlace
Your mother see's you only as an extension of herself, in her mind you belong to her body and soul. She has kept you bound to her so that she could have you on tap as needed, as she feels herself declining and aging she will feel completely entitled to steal as much of your life force as she can leaving you a withered and empty husk before moving on to her next victim.
Is that what you want?

And that is what narcissistic personality people do - they make you an extension of them. You likely also find boundaries very difficult mainly also because she has never encouraged you to have any

was just me being the one to acknowledge that it wasn't salvageable
It could be argued that you are doing them a favour, letting them know that you wont be there for them when they get older puts them on notice to arrange their lives, move into suitable accommodation etc.
If you put up with them for another decade and then ended up throwing in the towel after they had started to depend on you it would be more difficult for them.
While they are younger there's a chance they might find some kind of 'surrogate' to fill your shoes, actually I wonder if that's what your's will do, adopt someone and then put all over social media 'x is like a daughter to us' etc?
A hoover manoover to draw you back in (I can never spell that word so I'm having it like that to partner with 'hoover' :o)

Your mother see's you only as an extension of herself
My mother always wanted to be a mother. She always had someone else’s children - her nieces, a friend’s children, a neighbour’s children. Then she had her own child and she defined herself completely as a mother. She wasn’t able to let me grow up otherwise she’d have nothing.

To a certain extent I only exist to make her a mother. She’s never been particularly interested in me as an individual or tried to understand me. Of course she’s been a very committed mother but I don’t think that makes her a good mother. If I ever got upset she’d get hysterical but not actually help me. Instead of saying “why are you upset?” she’d say “why are you doing this to me, I can’t cope with this”. So yes, I do think she sees me as her child rather than an individual.

@Ulterego well if I am as abusive as they say I am then I've certainly done them a favour. 😂 there's no going back as far as I'm concerned, should've done it years ago. X

Hi MN stately homes gang. Long time MNer here but NCd for this.

I knew I'd had a pretty shitty childhood. No sexual abuse, but my dad was a real "treasure"; drunk, violent, manipulative, died young, then a string of stepdads and step families. Obviously I was pretty low down on everyone's list of priorities. Sometimes myself and my half-sister were neglected, didn't get enough to eat, left cold, bored etc.

But i always thought I had a good relationship with my mum. I realise today though at the age of 33 that actually, no I don't. I have minimised and given the benefit of the doubt the whole time, and actually, her attitude towards me and my sister is fucked up. She has a weirdly bad view of me and good view of her when the reality is at the very least somewhere a bit nearer the middle. And it's a weird one because neither of us is the favourite: I was 'the clever one' and always bigged up for that, but she always got all the attention due to her mental health problems: babied I guess is the word. I was 'the golden child' in theory but not reality. My sister was the bad girl but got all the attention.

Today mum made deluded highly offensive comments to me, painting my sister to be some kind of saint and me to be a useless turd. Of course, her language is not that overt but if you examine the implications of her words that is what comes out. I say DELUDED because when you spell my sister's life out on paper, it's....not exactly brilliant. Teenage pregnancy, gave child away, social services handed child back at the age of 11 after carer was neglecting her, child is physically abusive, social services back involved. Sister has hoarder tendencies and her house is a tip. Her relationship with her horrible new husband is constantly on the rocks/drama, she's barely worked in her life. She has also abused my mum, lying about her to work contacts, ghosting her, financially exploiting her. Absolute blatant emotional manipulation.

I've done my best to keep out of it and support my mum, take her side, for yeeears. But today I snapped, because mum always minimises my sister's behaviour and today she was basically comparing us, completely glossing over the massive shitty problems my sister has and causes and making me sound like shit in comparison which is just a JOKE. A BAD JOKE. I wasn't having it, I said I'd pretend she'd never said it. But mum likes to beat me down til I accept her view and had a go at that and I stood firm and said NO, it was offensive and deluded, ridiculous comparison to make. She said agree to disagree and i was being 'a bit harsh' but NO i did not feel like agree to disagree this time!!!

And basically it dredged up a lot of memories and I said to my ex husband that I've come to the conclusion at long last that actually, I don't think my mum does like me after all. I don't think we do have a good relationship. I think I've worked hard to fake one. I think I'm actually REALLY damaged by my childhood and continuing upsetting behaviour from my mum. I'm one of those push-ahead-regardless people though so I've never stopped to think or god forbid asked for help.

I think I probably need counselling but haven't applied yet.