But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Pukeworthy ah hope you have managed to get some sleep. Talk on here, I for one am happy to listen to you. This place is very supportive and full of people who do understand and 'get' your situation. It's understandable you are feeling low; it is very hard accepting that things aren't the way you would like them to be. Take care of yourself; are there any activities that you find relaxing? Hot bath? Cooking? Going for a long walk? (I know these won't solve your woes but it's the little things that can sometimes give you a bit of a lift, or give you a bit of pleasure - and you deserve good things!) xx

Morning, Steve, thinking of you 💐

Pukeworthy, please try again to call them and don't worry if you get a bit tearful on the phone. They will be used to that and will help you through it. That's what they are there for. You can do this! And as Marmaduke says, talk on here as much as you like. There's always someone around.

AthollPlace, sorry to break this to you but there's only room for one perfect mother in the world and that crown has already been nabbed by my own dear mother. I know because she reminds me of this every time she shrivels another tiny bit of my soul. Is there any way you could start rationing your mother's visits? If only to give you some much needed breathing space.

@AthollPlace I can identify with the 'it wasn't like that' and 'how do you think this makes me feel'. All about them. And they are unable/unwilling to see other people's point of view. It's hard to understand and it's hard to undo the habit of rolling over and numbly accepting it X
@SimplySteveRedux hope today goes ok x

Was thinking, those who have been having counselling/therapy. What have been the lightbulb moments, or the realisations that you have had after talking things through? My main one so far is that I'm starting to understand and accept that I'm actually not responsible for the current situation. And it doesn't sound like it's much but it's a very big thing when trying to cope with the guilty feelings. I was on out of the dog site earlier and someone had said about parking the blame back on their parents doorstep and I think that is a massive part of recovery. That and accepting that no matter what you needed, this is what you got. X

Out of the fog lol 😂

Accepting the reality that my mum has NPD was huge. I pushed against that for years, holding firm to the fact I was damaged and at fault. She sent a text to DSis the other day and I finally accepted that she is a full blown no holds barred narc. So liberating. I just need to put this fucked up situation back on my parents' doorstep now. This mess we are in is their fault.

At my EMDR session yesterday I realised I wasn't badly bullied in primary school, I was a happy resilient child who had had some knocks but I got through them, and that I was very popular. It felt like receiving the most wonderful gift.

I can identify with the 'it wasn't like that' and 'how do you think this makes me feel'. All about them
It never ends. Last year I suffered from PND and my mother cried hysterically and said “why are you doing this to me, you’re killing me”. No empathy or support, if I cried she just walked out. She thought I should be fulfilled by sacrificing myself for my child, not resentful and depressed. She’s shocked that I expect DH to do his share and frequently tells me it’s a woman’s lot to do all the domestic stuff. Imo she’s mostly upset that I’m not mirroring her codependent self sacrificing behaviour.

pukeworthy you’re struggling with profound grief I think. It sounds like you’re trying to fix your very painful feelings with the sort of remedies that might help if you’ve had a slightly bad day. You can’t distract yourself with tea and a distracting programme because your head won’t let you, your crying is a constant reminder that you’re in pain.

First of all you should take some comfort from the fact that you’ve recognised that you can’t accept damaging relationships anymore. That’s an enormous positive, believe me.

Ask for proper help. 💐

What have been the lightbulb moments
My mother strongly promoted the idea that she’s an angel who sacrificed herself for me. I believed it for decades and constantly felt guilty for not achieving highly enough to make her sacrifices worthwhile. It was a big step to realise she’s not an angel - she’s codependent and has an unhealthy lack of boundaries and self. Understanding that my father is a narcissist and so was his mother was another big step.

I think it's sinking in how alone i am, really
Pukeworthy I think this is why I’m so withdrawn, because I’ve been hurt repeatedly and now I just want to be left alone. My father withdrew in the same manner and I wonder if he felt the same as me.

Atholl it sounds like your mother cannot bear to experience her feelings unless they are positive, and feels very challenged if she thinks you ‘see’ her. She sounds very brittle, damaged and exhausting. Not your responsibility. Keep her at arms length would be my advice.

Mine came from a conversation with a friend who’s a psychotherapist. I was chatting about how I suspected my mother had undiagnosed NPD and what the prognosis might be.

She took my hand and asked why on earth I thought I was responsible for sorting it out. I said because I always do, it’s my job to fix things in my family. Big realisation.

atholl if your dad is a narc that might not be why he withdrew. It sounds like you've given a lot of thought to the issues your parents have but it does seem to me that your mum could be narcissistic too. Sorry, I've been so busy (moving house, bringing two families together) so I might have missed this but have you read any of the recommended books? When will I be good enough? is astonishingly good.

puke just sending a hug

Atholl I once heard narcissism and codependency described as being two sides of the same coin. They are both an addiction to feeling special. In narcissism the specialness is achieved by being the most important/best/superior person. In codependency it's about feeling special by being recognised by others for your 'selfless' nature (not that it's actually selfless if it's done for reward).

My personal lightbulb (not exactly mind blowing in itself, but it was the beginning of the end and when things all started to unravel) was when I told my M something personal about myself, thinking she'd understand, empathise and be on my side. It wasn't anything bad, just a description of how I felt that I didn't think she'd previously understood. Instead she judged, and bad-mouthed me to other relatives. I realised when those other relatives said something unpleasant to me that the betrayal could only have come from her.

Sorry, 'will I ever be good enough?' is the book title

Dad is definitely narc. He thinks he’s better than everyone and never took an interest in what was happening in my life. If he was doing something he’d let me watch but never explained or invited me to join in. If you ask him to help you do something he just takes over and does it. He brags to others about my achievements but never congratulates me. The world didn’t validate his important self image so he isolated himself and blamed my mum for everything.

My mum waited on him hand and foot. She’s always collected other people’s neglected children and behaved like a mother to them. Then she had me and has clung to me ever since. That’s why I think she’s codependent. I agree they are a pair and bounced off each other. I was badly abused in my teens by other people because I hadn’t been encouraged to have any healthy boundaries or self esteem.

I will have a look for that book thanks x

M15sterPip I think that’s one of the worst things narcissists do, using any confidences and vulnerabilities you share against you. Sadly I think (before we set boundaries with them) we often give an offering of a weakness to them, as if we are demonstrating how small we are in relation to them, maybe hoping they’ll pity us and show kindness. It never works, it just ends in humiliation.

You are so, so right hero. In my case, I'd self sabotage as an offering to her.

jandhani I’ve actually had a little think this afternoon about whether I’ve internalised this behaviour, I realised I find people talking about my children to me a bit painful - I just don’t feel it’s particularly genuine. By all means tell them they’re great, but don’t think it’s my doing, it’s their hard work not mine. Almost a defence against my mothers voice telling me how lucky I am and how jealous my sister is, and how she didn’t have the chances I had. Success is very conflicting, pride and shame all mixed up.

I think that’s one of the worst things narcissists do, using any confidences and vulnerabilities you share against you
I see it as an expression of the predatory nature/mindset, the default setting is to exploit

Sorry I haven't been able to catch up on the previous posts.

@Pukeworthy

You need to take your time right now. Baby steps. You're doing your best and that's all that matters.

Thanks all. I feel a little better and have managed to get some sleep. I'm kind of greyrocking mum, she has of course noticed but nothing is happening yet. All hell will break loose if she thinks I have a real problem with her...

Pukeworthy, if all hell breaks loose then you just (literally and/or physically) retreat to a safe distance whilst it blows over and she exhausts herself.
You can carry on with the grey rocking, you can always escalate to stonewalling if need be.
Ultimately what she can she do, what sanctions can she impose? Stop your pocket money?