But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
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August 2013
December 2013
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May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018 - May 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Frazzledandconfused
I am new to therapy so dont have much of an overview but....the person I see does tend to focus on me and my feelings, she gives some insights but mostly it seems to be about facilitating my insights, I chose someone who uses EMDR which (purports to) offer a way to restructure things without the need to discuss upsetting things in detail, BUT it does involve focusing on things which were/are upsetting.

Here's something from the info I was given:
RESOURCES FOR FEELING BETTER:
The primary goal of counseling is to increase positive feelings and decrease distress. In addition to the suggestions below you can make your own list of what comforts you and improves your mood. The trend in psychology used to be “talk about it and you’ll feel better”. Research has shown that just talking about how bad we feel often keeps us feeling lousy! To feel better we have to DO (action) something besides talking about the pain we are in. In addition to changing our brains by taking positive action, we can intentionally recall positive moments to trigger the mind to release chemicals that compose positive emotions.
 Keep a Gratitude Journal: brain research shows that daily writing down 5 things we are grateful for improves brain functioning and elevates mood
 Go for a walk/MOVE YOUR BODY even if just for a minute! Moving physically moves us emotionally- this is why it is called emotion!
 Jump rope
 Run in place for 1 minute
 Do Tai Chi or Yoga positions (great book: Overcoming Trauma Through Yoga by Emerson and Hopper)
 Relaxation exercises or meditation CD
 Breathe in to the count of 4, hold 4, exhale 4, pause 4; repeat 4 times.
 Or breathe in slowly to the count of 5, breathe out slowly to the count of 5.
 Guided imagery like Safe place, Nurturing Figures, and Container
 Websites/you tube videos that are positive/uplifting (bookmark them so they are easily accessible)
 Find a reason to laugh (movies/TV shows/cartoon books)
 Read a book (that creates positive feelings for you)
 Read a self help book (Mind Over Mood, The Anxiety and Phobia Workbook, Feeling Good Workbook, 10 Days to Self Esteem)
 Garden (in the winter plant an amaryllis or a bean seed and watch it grow)
 Cook/Bake/Hand crank pasta/knead bread  Listen to calming music-even a lullaby CD. Make a CD of songs to listen to when you are distressed.
 Make music-play an instrument or sing.
 Dance! To a song or with a video!
 Volunteer for something you value
 Send cards to friends or anyone who might need one
 Hold an object that represents a loved one
 Make something-find a hobby that you enjoy
 Vacuum 1 room or clean 1 sink or fold 5 clean clothes
 Make a list of things you’ve always wanted to learn more about and then go to the library or do online research.
 Nurture your sense of smell-find 5 things that smell good and sniff them
 Nurture your sense of touch-rub your fingers over the fur of your pet, a soft blanket, a smooth rock, textured fabric-soak your feet in warm water, put lotion on your hands.
 Drum. If you don’t have a drum use sticks or wooden spoons and plastic containers.
 Collect the names-photos of people who inspire you-put them in a binder
 Trace a finger labyrinth or find a local one you can walk
 Read a beautiful or fun children’s book
 Keep a collection of prayers, poems, quotes, to reread
 Go to the library and look through coffee table books
 Go to a museum-consider getting a membership
 Call a friend and ask how they are doing
 Plan a vacation-either one that is possible of one that is unlikely-Borrow a travel video from the library
 Watch a free online video that shows how to say something simple in sign language
 List 10 things you want to do/accomplish in the next 10 years
 List10 things you’ve accomplished/enjoyed in the past 10 years  Give yourself $3 to buy something pleasant-a flower, a cup of tea or coffee, a bar of organic soap, a piece of fruit-or find something at the dollar store 
 Grab a digital camera and take pictures of things in your environment that are beautiful or interesting.
 Pretend for just a moment that you are here in the present without the experiences of your past. You are a blank slate only taking in the sensory information that is in front of you.
Name 3 things that you see; name 3 things that you hear; notice what you smell; reach out and touch 3 different textures. Are you safe right now, this moment? Not 2 minutes from now, but in this moment. Just notice what your senses are taking in. Continue to name what you see, what you hear, what you smell, what you touch, what the temperature is like on your skin, where the light falls in the room. Imagine this moment is a bubble with no past and no future, just now. Thoughts are just thoughts, feelings are just feelings. In this moment, right now, you are safe. Breathe deeply. (Adapted from lecture by Dr. J. Eric Gentry www.compassionunlimited.com/ )
 Place the palm of your hand against your forehead (like people do when they have a headache). Begin counting backwards from 100 by 7’s or begin listing what your senses notice in your environment: the colors, the shapes, the sounds, the textures. This exercise can stop the fight, flight, or freeze response from increasing and pull the thinking part of the brain back online.
 Splash cold water on your face or fill a bowl with ice water and dunk your head in it for a few seconds (especially helpful if you struggle with self harm)
 Look in the mirror and say your name and your age out loud.
 Add and cares about/loves/believes in me.
 Take a cold shower (especially if you struggle with self harm)
 Take a warm shower or bath (especially calming before going to sleep)  Write or draw on your body with washable markers (instead of cutting).
 Press your hand against your knee and gently push your knee against it; do the same with the other hand and other knee. Push against your elbows in the same way.
 Throw ice cubes at a something like a tree, concrete, or gravel.  If you had a child with you who was upset, what would you do to comfort the child? Do this, even if it seems childish or silly.

That thread is a tough read especially the bits about it giving you boundless confidence and self worth (I wonder what that feels like?!).

My children are in no doubt that love them and think they are clever, funny and worth spending time with. They won't grow up with no confidence and full of self doubt. I hope I can give them that.

Hi Frazzled glad you came back.

Firstly I’d say you need to bring those feelings to your next session. You sound as if you’re alone in those feelings, you’re therapist should be ‘there’ with you, helping you to re-experience them. You sound quite angry and helpless, is that what you most felt as a child and maybe why you resent re-visiting it?

Do you feel you trust your therapist? If not I’d definitely talk about that.

The therapy is for you, and you need to be challenged but you also need to feel empathy and warmth. Never be afraid to question the process and re-evaluate.

Blooming autocorrect! Your not you’re!!!

I chose someone who uses EMDR which (purports to) offer a way to restructure things without the need to discuss upsetting things in detail, BUT it does involve focusing on things which were/are upsetting.

Following a recent psychiatric assessment I was recommended CBT and medication combo. The consultant said EMDR is contraindicated in persons with PTSD, GAD, CPTSD as can produce suicidal ideation and self-harm.

SimplySteve you’ve really shocked me there, I know a couple of people who’ve been treated with EMDR for PTSD. That’s really concerning.

I hadnt heard that about EMDR!

Said consultant is a Professor too. I went in wanting EMDR and meds as my treatment plan, then that was dropped on me!

EMDR may be contraindicated for some clients. Possible contraindications suggested by the clinical literature on EMDR include the possibility that conditions may be exacerbated by intense levels of emotion that can result from reprocessing. These include medical conditions such as pregnancy, seizures, or other neurological disorders. Other possible contraindications that must be considered include the use of psychotropic medications or substance abuse. Clinicians also should look for indicators of dissociation and dissociative disorders and should not use EMDR with dissociative clients unless they have had extensive experience as an EMDR clinician and have received formal training in treating people with dissociative disorders.

Although there is strong empirical support for the effectiveness of EMDR as well as exposure therapy in treating simpler forms of PTSD, such as noncomorbid PTSD resulting from a single-episode trauma, that empirical support should not be generalized to complex forms of PTSD, for which there is much less evidence. Complex PTSD is distinguished from simpler forms of PTSD by its comorbidity with other disorders, its association with multiple traumas (often beginning at an early age), and the severe nature of the traumatic events (such as multiple episodes of physical or sexual abuses, torture, military combat, and so on).

The empirical support for EMDR is strongest for single-trauma, noncombat, and acute forms of PTSD among adults (Bisson et al., 2007; Bradley et al., 2005; Davidson & Parker, 2001; Rubin, 2003; Seidler & Wagner, 2006; van Etten & Taylor, 1998). Nevertheless, many clinicians use it with children; adult clients who have other, more complex forms of PTSD; and clients with other types of disorders. Indeed, as indicated above regarding the client history phase, the EMDR literature advises clinicians to look for a history of small-t traumas that do not meet DSM requirements for a PTSD diagnosis. Among the large-T traumas mentioned are some that are associated with more severe and chronic forms of PTSD that typically involve multiple traumas and for which there is scant well-controlled research support (in the form of randomized clinical trials), such as traumatic experiences during military combat and torture (Dodgsen, 2009).

Maxfield (2007), a staunch proponent of EMDR and prolific writer about it, cautioned that EMDR is often used by clinicians to treat problems for which EMDR’s efficacy has not yet been strongly established. Among these are phobias that do not follow a traumatic experience, panic disorders, complicated grief after a loved one’s death, and depression following marital breakup. Maxfield adds, “Many therapists also use EMDR to help individuals deal with life stressors, family problems, and attachment issues. While there are many anecdotal reports, and conference presentations, recommending various strategies for EMDR work with these issues, very few of them have research support” (2007, p. 8).

DSM PTSD Checklist. (https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/assessment/documents/PCL5Standardd_form.PDF)

Interpretation of the PCL-5 should be made by a clinician. The PCL-5 can be scored in different ways:
• A total symptom severity score (range - 0-80) can be obtained by summing the scores for each of the 20 items.
• DSM-5 symptom cluster severity scores can be obtained by summing the scores for the items within a given cluster, i.e., cluster B (items 1-5), cluster C (items 6-7), cluster D (items 8-14), and cluster E (items 15-20).
• A provisional PTSD diagnosis can be made by treating each item rated as 2 = "Moderately" or higher as a symptom endorsed, then following the DSM-5 diagnostic rule which requires at least: 1 B item (questions 1-5), 1 C item (questions 6-7), 2 D items (questions 8-14), 2 E items (questions 15-20).
• Initial research suggests that a PCL-5 cutoff score between 31-33 is indicative of probable PTSD across samples. However, additional research is needed. Further, because the population and the purpose of the screening may warrant different cutoff scores, users are encouraged to consider both of these factors when choosing a cutoff score.

Sorry last bit then I'll shut up.

Besides DSM, the "bible" for psychology and psychiatry, other projects such as Adverse Childhood Experiences (www.acestoohigh.com) explore other markers of PTSD and the low probability of no comorbidity.

Thanks simplysteve, it makes sense that it wouldn't be good for everyone. EMDR is really helping me but the emotions it brings up are intense, authentic and quite awful. For my last one I felt I relived the emotions as I felt them, almost undiluted by the 30 year gap.

ulter are you getting EMDR soon? Good luck!

Thanks Steve I understand where you’re coming from now. Good luck with the moving, hope you get settled in soon.

thank you Jam😊
Yes I've had a few talking sessions with the therapist so far, I'm assuming that if she thought I wasn't a good candidate we wouldn't be going forward with the EMDR
The rough plan is to start working on the memories of CSA, I have fairly clear and distinct memories but don't really have a lot of emotion attached to them...don't find it particularly distressing to recall then I guess that indicates that I had frozen and dissociated so perhaps it will become more difficult?

I was thinking today about that thing people say about children being resilient. I’ve always wondered why it’s accepted as a reality. I wasn’t resilient, I just didn’t have any choice.

Ulter sounds like your therapy is moving quickly, how do you feel after the sessions?

Hero, I suppose the truth is more that children are very malleable and adaptable?
Also now I'm learning more about the freeze response I can see that a lot of times adults will have assumed that the child wasn't damaged when in fact what happened was they locked the trauma away and it comes out later in life (?)
After the sessions I've been very lost in thought (the appointments are a few miles away and I walk there and back.... lots of thinking time) what I've done so far is write down everything that comes to me in between the sessions and then summarise/pull it all together print it out and take it to the next session so that we can discuss the insights that I've had

That’s brilliant ulter, you’re working hard, I think the thinking and walking is probably really effective at dealing with it all. Be kind to yourself.

Thank you Hero😊 I will and I hope that all of us can too😊

I was thinking today about that thing people say about children being resilient. I’ve always wondered why it’s accepted as a reality. I wasn’t resilient, I just didn’t have any choice.

Also now I'm learning more about the freeze response I can see that a lot of times adults will have assumed that the child wasn't damaged when in fact what happened was they locked the trauma away and it comes out later in life (?)

I've had it levelled at me multiple times, online communities, online gaming, industry panels etc that I lack resilience. However, it's due to the sheer strength of resilience that we are all here today. The tales on these threads confirm some of mankind's worst atrocities - against defenceless children for the most part. I remember logging on earlier when I posted from the crematorium thinking how "great" it was the thread was over 850 posts deep, then the reality it's only been running since August sank in. Lack of resilience would point to suicide, successful suicide that is.

The freeze response has changed the dynamic completely and thank heavens it has. Fight or flight were always too black and white, and bore no correlation into the abuse dynamic. I'm extremely certain, after today, a significant proportion of my memories are regressed. Today is the first time I've cried in 20 years, just emotionally numb. I wish I could blame it on antidepressants but I'd be lying to myself.

I think we've only scratched the surface of regressed memories and dissociation; there is lots more work to do and when the numerous, vast, studies are released people will be astounded. ACEs took 25 years, might be waiting another decade or two.

Great to hear you're having therapy, ulter.

This month of wireless data has been worth it already.

thanks SimplySteve😊
I have had bouts of trying therapy in the past but never seemed to get anywhere, now I feel as if this area has maybe progressed somewhat in recent years?

I learn from this thread every day.

I've had counselling before. It was for PTSD - work-related, not because of family issues. I learned one helpful technique for shutting out intrusive thoughts when I'm trying to go to sleep but other than that, it wasn't of much use. Not the counsellor's fault to some degree; I'm very very good at hiding myself and even this highly recommended professional didn't detect the barriers.

Because it was focused on the work thing, the counsellor didn't even touch on any underlying family issues (although I realised much much later that they were indeed interconnected and relevant). He did want to move on to EMDR but that was the stage when I decided it was all ineffective anyway and called a halt. Might have been a lucky escape.

Ulter, yours sounds like a more insightful experience. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.

So to add to the litany of parental neglect, turns out my childhood jabs were never requested. Just had my first MMR, Dip/Tetanus/Polio!

I know something about EMDR, but wanted to mention a couple of other therapies.

EFT Emotional Freedom Technique is really helpful for managing emotions and clearing them from the energy system. There are online tutorials on how to do it, or you can learn it in a workshop.

www.emofree.com/nl/eft-tutorial/tapping-basics/how-to-do-eft.html

BWRT Brainworking Recursive Therapy is another powerful technique which has been very effective with trauma, particularly as there is no need to go back into the trauma.

www.bwrt.org

www.topsante.co.uk/womens-health/bwrt-brain-working-recursive-therapy/3036/

I have trained in the first, and use it on myself when I remember. The second therapy I have also done part 1 of the training, and can speak highly of it.

Just catching up with everyones posts on here. Its been a difficult few days, i find that one day i will feel very low and angry, then the next day i feel almost euphoric and hyper. Im hoping this is normal and will settle to an even level. I can relate to a lot of comments on here, I had an amazing grandmother who i adored, i remember her telling me that she begged my mother to never have children because she was scared off how she would treat them. As a child my mum was cruel to the family pets and tormented her younger sister to the point my grandma wouldnt leave them in a room together. My mother was 15 when her sister was born so not normal sibling rivalry. My mum hated my relationship with my grandmother and would tell lies about her to me to ruin it.

Im hoping this is normal and will settle to an even level.

Completely normal, Loopylou. You are grieving; grieving for the parent/child relationship you should have had versus the one that you actually had. I'm afraid you'll have more ups and downs to come but they will get better over time. Just try to hold on to the fact that the reason why you are feeling like this is precisely because you^^ are a normal, decent and empathetic human being, despite the crappy childhood imposed on you.

Having strategies in place is a good idea for those days and moments when the grief and anger overwhelm.

I'm so glad you had such a loving grandmother in your life. That will have made a huge difference.