But we took you to Stately Homes" August 2019 onwards thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's August 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi Pukeworthy, you are in the right place. I know what it was like to be cold, hungry, ignored and neglected as a child and how painful it is when you come to the realisation that your mother not only failed you then but is failing you now. I'm sorry you are going through this. I will write more tomorrow but didn't want to read and run. It took a lot of courage to open up but please know that the support and understanding is here for you 💐

This is going to sound really stupid but I think you guys on here might understand. I'm just feeling absolute loathing towards my mother tonight over something that probably sounds very small.

DD (aged 3.5) is a massive fan of a particular children's series. She loves the characters and talks about them all the time. Her grandparents have bought her most of the toys but there's one left she didn't have. It's a bit harder to get hold of than the others but I'd already ordered it for her Christmas stocking and it's hidden at the top of the cupboard. I honestly felt like a child about the idea of her getting it out of her stocking. I've wanted to get it for her for about a year but I'm a single parent and am trying to be careful about money.

I sent my mother a text listing a few things that were going to be in DD's stocking, so she knew not to buy them. Fast forward a couple of weeks and guess what she's gone and bought for DD, and given to her already? She immediately went on the defensive and said it wasn't her fault because I didn't tell her. I told her I'd sent her a text and she said well, I'm always sending her texts.

I hate her.

I fucking hate her.

It sounds so small but I was so excited about DD's face when I completed her collection and she's ruined it. I could cry.

I honestly don't know whether she did it out of spite (because we'd had a row a couple of days ago, because she keeps trampling my boundaries into mush by criticising my parenting and telling me what I "have" to do).

Or whether she just didn't pay attention to my text because I'm not a person to her, I'm just a prop in her "look at me, the perfect mother and grandmother" drama. And then she bought the toy because she can't resist the opportunity for some "I'm the perfect, generous grandmother" posturing, even getting close to Christmas when she should have checked with me.

Either way, I feel as though I've hit my limit with her over something ridiculous tiny, but I've just had enough.

I'm sorry that you are going through this, Pukeworthy, and I second SingingLily that this is the right place to come for support. Hopefully someone will be along very shortly with more helpful advice, but in the meantime I'm sending you my thoughts and admiration for your courage! I'm also sorry that I didn't spot your comment before posting mine (which seems even sillier by comparison).

I'm just feeling absolute loathing towards my mother tonight over something that probably sounds very small
I totally get you Veryupset, yes it's a 'small' thing but she's packed a very big insulting message into that 'small' act.
She did it to punish you for daring to call her out during the row a couple of days ago, not that she'd admit it but she followed her urge to diminish/crush you after you stood up to her.

She immediately went on the defensive
that tends to be a BIG red flag, a defensive person has something to defend!

Thank you so much for understanding, Ulterego.

I was 'the clever one' and always bigged up for that

But of course you were, and no doubt your mother took all the credit due her "incredible" shit parenting. This is how narcissist's operate.

I dont think, when you're a hard up single mum, that being robbed of that special moment is a small thing! 'You send me a lot of texts' was a shitty reply aswell

I will write more tomorrow, puke.

puke and very, welcome! You are definitely in the right place x

Hi @Pukeworthy and @Veryupsetoverstupidthing
So the way I see it is that on a fundamental level we have a 'need' to have our mothers, it's basic biology/programming. And we interpret that this means that we have to accept whatever way they behave because we need to maintain a relationship at all costs. When we are kids we don't question their cranky weird behaviours but when we are adults (and in my case a turning point was becoming a parent myself) we realise that a rabbit is off somewhere and try to make sense of it. @Pukeworthy it sounds like you have felt this way for a long time but maintained the relationship as it felt like the right thing to do. But at what cost to yourself? When you realise that the effort you put in to keeping your mother happy is not, and never will be, reciprocated then it's a tough thing to process. As you said, it's kind of easier to let it wash over you and plough on rather than take a long hard look and see it for what it is. It's what most of us have done till we reach a point where we think 'enough is enough'. I can totally twinned psychotherapy if you can access it, it's costly but worth it. And @Veryupsetoverstupidthing I totally get your rage and it's not a stupid thing to be upset over. As @Ulterego said, it's all the messages that are tied up in what she has done, and the dismissive response. She is basically brushing your feelings aside, as they are not important to her, not as important as she is (in her opinion) Of course you wouldn't let one incident cause you to press the nuclear button but it's often something pretty mundane that can be the catalyst for change. They don't say 'the straw that broke the camels back' for nothing (I live a good cliche!). You've put up with years of this crap and you've had enough; and you have every right to your feelings. X

Oh I don't know what happened with that bold type carry on 😖

Thank you, yes i think things did start feeling a bit off when i had my DD. I started thinking 'hmm...i would never do that to my daughter'. But i dismissed it as 'oh well, im sure she had my best interests at heart'. Now i ont think so. Shes actually really selfish.

It sounds to me as if it was the other way around, Pukeworthy. Your sister was the golden child because no matter what she did, her behaviour was minimised or excused or airbrushed from history even though the facts were there for all to see. In the meantime, you got on with life and made a go of it. Yet all your hard work and achievements are rubbished. Of no value. That makes you the scapegoat. It also means that you could turn yourself inside-out being the perfect daughter and it still wouldn't be good enough for your mother.

I'm sorry. It's crappy. It's also painful when the scales fall from your eyes and you realise just how much you've been carrying the emotional load for this relationship, and for how long. Even as a child, you had to give your mother centre stage every time, all the time, just so that you could survive.

This stood out for me:

I'm one of those push-ahead-regardless people though so I've never stopped to think or god forbid asked for help.

That's because you were taught a cruel lesson at a very early age. That even as a small, vulnerable, defenceless child, the only person you could rely on in life was yourself. Even as a small, vulnerable, defenceless child, you knew there was no point in looking to your own mother for comfort or support. She didn't even take care of your basic needs.

This has such echoes for me. My own mother views me with contempt. There is no other word for it. For years, I strained every sinew trying to be the perfect daughter. I turned myself in a 24/7 taxi and concierge service, taking all her crap with patience and a smile, making excuses for her cold and dismissive behaviour - all in the hope of earning a few crumbs of approval from her. Futile. Utterly futile.

You mention your ex-husband and I'm wondering how he responded. He must have seen your mother's behaviour for himself over the years.

Opening up about this, acknowledging it, getting it all down in writing, is a good start - painful though it is. You are on a journey, Pukeworthy, but you've taken that first important step.

HI Pukeworthy

What SingingLily wrote.

I would only add that your mother, a woman who is patently not worthy of them term, failed you utterly as a child and continues to do so. She has not changed fundamentally since your childhood either. She only has her own self interest at heart and was really her man's secondary abuser and enabler.

Do seek help from a therapist when you feel ready to do so but interview such people carefully and at length before you decide. This person has to also fit in with your approach.

Hi All,

I've not posted on these threads, I've come across these threads in the past but struggle with sometimes as i find them triggering.

Lots of stuff happened when I was younger and I've gone mostly NC with my parents and family. I will post properly later today, I know if I do it now it will negatively impact me for the rest of the day.

I also think I'm going to seek counselling, I know I struggle and I take things out on my husband, which is not his fault. My daughter has also started asking questions about my family and why she doesn't see them, I thought I was prepared for those questions but, in reality, it seems that I wasn't.

I'm based in the north west (Wigan area) can anyone recommend any therapists?

I'm sorry, I know I'm babbling, I think I've posted because the thread is filling up and I'm hoping that someone can tag me in the next one if a new one is opened?

My ex husband agreed, i only spoke to him because I knew he'd witnessed most of this, and reminded me of some things she'd done which I had brushed under the carpet and conveniently forgotten!

eg: when we got married, she was just going to 'pop in for the day'. Now, I'm not the girl-friends type, I didn't have a hen do and only two bridesmaids. I would have said my mum was my best friend. I thought she'd want to spend the night with me beforehand, help me get ready? Nope, just wanted to swan in with her boyfriend and not waste all her weekend at my wedding. In the end she did agree to come over when I voiced my disappointment and that's the memory I made.

I also invited my sister to be my maid of honour even though we were in the midst of not talking because she was being horrible to mum. I reached out, we agreed she shouldnt miss my wedding. I bought her dress, and one for my niece. She didn't turn up on the day. I didn't even react, but of course mum was full of 'oh she couldnt handle it' minimise minimise minimise.... I don't see why she couldn't have apologised or told me the night before at least that she wasnt coming?

I think you're right about learning the lesson I can only rely on myself. My mum was very proud of the fact that as soon as I was home from hospital, I slept in my own bedroom all night from the getgo no matter what. She viewed it as a huge triumph and I thought so too until I had my own baby and I thought about what it means for a totally dependent little thing to be left entirely on their own!? I had the habit of sucking my fingers into my 20s, I believe, as a result of having to self soothe. Then the one time she trusted me to be left alone with my dad she came back hours later to see I'd just been left in the chair as she'd left me, unchanged, unfed etc etc.

I'm relieved to hear your ex-husband saw it so clearly too, Pukeworthy. So many on here struggle with the additional anxiety of having been told for years that it didn't happen, they made it up, they were over-sensitive, it was just a joke, to the point where they no longer trust their own memories. Having an eye-witness helps you to move past all that.

Having your DD pulled it all into focus. You could never imagine treating your own child in the way you were treated. You do know that your mother is no more fitted to being a grandmother than she was as a mother to you, don't you? Attilla often says that if someone is too toxic for you to cope with, it's the same deal for your children. She's right, of course.

Talking about it helps. Having strategies in place also help to deal with the emotional upheaval you are now feeling. Boundaries that protect your mental and emotional wellbeing - in fact, that put you first - are essential.

I can't offer much advice in terms of finding the right counsellor (hello EZA15 - and also welcome to this thread) except to repeat what other wiser heads on here have said: only consider BACP-registered, make sure they have no familial bias (no "but it's family" types) and be prepared for the possibility that you might have to have initial sessions with more than one till you find the right counsellor for you.

I just wanted to share a thought that I had...
Essentially our parents are our entry point into the world, ideally there is mutual love and support but if there isn't and they are more hindrance than help then cut your losses.

First therapy session in the morning, cancellation saving me around eight months. Really apprehensive and bricking it.

a similarish thing happened to me SimplySteve, I chose a therapist from the BCAP list online and she just happened to have an appointment free the next day.
Can you write some notes down now to take along with you, might help to ease your mind a bit on the subject of what you're going to say?
(I did a fair amount of weeping in my first appointment)

And that is what narcissistic personality people do - they make you an extension of them
I don’t think my mother is a narcissist. She’s codependent. She likes to caretake and sacrifice then harp on about how much she’s sacrificed. She still talks about sacrifices she made thirty years ago and she wants gratitude to validate herself. And she needs to continue to validate herself by doing things for me. Buying stuff I haven’t asked for and don’t want. Doing my dishes (usually when I’m on the loo so I can’t stop her). Hanging around me excessively even when I don’t want or need her to. In fact I moved out because of her lack of boundaries.

She wants me to be codependent too. She tells me off for not being a people pleaser. Says stuff like I didn’t have many friends as a child because I was too selfish. Or that I should be more sacrificing for my husband, should have a meal on the table and do all the housework, must let him “have his way” because he’ll leave me if I don’t, must not expect to have any friends or hobbies because my husband and child should be enough. I’m not allowed to have any negative emotions because that’s selfish, and because she takes it personally and gets hysterical about her failure to make me happy.

So many on here struggle with the additional anxiety of having been told for years that it didn't happen
This is absolutely true. As a child I wasn’t allowed to talk to my mother about being bullied or lonely because it upset HER. I suppose it invalidated her vision of herself as the perfect all-sacrificing mother who made her child blissfully happy. Now she insists I was the one who refused to talk about being bullied. Because it has to be my fault that she didn’t do anything about it. It makes a mockery of all the times I asked for help and she just cried hysterically and said why are you doing this to me?

Even now my mother can’t possibly do anything wrong because she’s the perfect self sacrificing mother, not someone who inconveniences me. She didn’t break my special cup, it must already have been chipped before she picked it up (I was using it five minutes ago and it wasn’t). She didn’t make a mess in my house resulting in me having to clean up, that must be someone else (there’s nobody else here). If I insist she must have done it she’ll storm off home. It drives me insane when she insists that something hasn’t happened when it clearly has.

I did apply for help but they want me to ring them and i think i'll just cry and not be able to speak.

I've been up since 1.30am at my bf's house crying. Im now on the sofa so i dont disturb him; he has work tomorrow and shudnt have to deal with this.

Everytime i cheer myself up with tea and tv comedy, i try to shut my eyes to sleep and start crying again. I think it's sinking in how alone i am, really. I dont speak to either of my half sisters. My dad's dead. My mum is no help. It didnt work out with my husband. I have one good friend who is busy with a baby. There's no one else. Boyfriend is too new to really trust/rely on/dump this on. My grandparents and husband were my rock and they died and he let me down :(