"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

dale so many wasted opportunities. Bizarrely my M has completely re-written that part of my history, she said to me a while back it was a shame I chose not to go to my graduation (she’s got some new friends with high-achieving offspring). Well no I couldn’t because I failed my exams I replied. Oh yes she said and changed the subject.

BuckingFrolics we all adopt the passive placating style in the realm of the NPD person, it’s all we know how to do, unless we are prepared to leave or wage an unwinnable war.

Singing it’s all so messed up, isn’t it.
The sad thing is she can’t be getting any pleasure from what’s happened, but I guess it’s all your individual faults, not hers.

Singing so true. I was knocked completely off balance. My siblings were primary school age but it must've been tough for them too (I know, I also moved at primary school age).

Hero ah, the rewriting of history. My parents moved again in recent years and when talking about it my DM said something like "we'll, it's not as if we had you lot [children] to think about". Like she had ever given us any consideration before

I’ve never posted before. I see other people have had awful experiences and I am aware how my experience pales in comparison. Nevertheless it has been eating me up for years.

My perspective: I grew up with a violent and bullying older brother who was 8 years older than me, sexually inappropriate, unkind and pretty awful to my mum and sister too. My mum occasionally stuck up for me, my dad let my brother get on with it. As I got older we ceased to have any relationship. I idolised my sister until my late twenties, probably because she didn’t hit me, when I realised she used me for emotional support, would come and stay with me and “borrow” money, empty my fridge, belittle me, be rude about my husband and friends and was never available when I wanted to talk, everything was on her terms. When I started saying “no” to her demands she kicked off massively and said some really hurtful unforgivable things. At the time I was going through infertility treatment and pregnancy losses. When my first dc was finally born, I stopped talking to her altogether for the sake of my mental health.

My parents are devastated that I don’t speak to my siblings. Over the last ten years my DM has tried in vain to engineer meetings, phone calls, reconciliations etc. I no longer go to my home town as I don’t trust my DM not to arrange a meeting I don’t want.

From my sivlings’ POV I am a spoiled brat who doesn’t care about anyone but myself.

From my parents’ POV I don’t care about anyone else, everyone has to walk on eggshells around me and I have torn apart the family. The stuff with my siblings was normal brother/sister stuff that everyone goes through, it is ancient history, and I need to forget about it and move on.

My problem is that I do want a relationship with my parents. But it’s so badly strained because they don’t recognise any validity in the way I feel, if that makes sense. I want to be able to have a phone call or even a visit (I live far away from them now) without it being about my siblings or their children. But they are constantly brought into conversation and I am made to feel unreasonable for not wanting to know about them. I can’t seem to find anyone in a similar boat. Is there any way to retain a relationship with my parents? I don’t think they will ever accept my choice to have no relationship with my siblings.

I mean I’ve not posted on this thread! I have posted about my siblings before.

Before a couple of days ago yeti I would have said put really strong boundaries in place, just say you won’t talk about your siblings, and close them down when they try to do so. But after reading everything here I’m not sure you can do this. Your DP’s have made it clear that their needs are more important than yours, and they don’t care about the terrible things that happened to you. It sounds bloody awful by the way, what you went through.

Bunny

re your recent reply to me I have just seen your question also within it as follows:-

Do you think there any way I can protect my child from that side of her without going NC?

No. If you visit she will be exposed indirectly to their toxic behaviours. If your parents are too toxic/difficult/batshit for you to deal with, its the same deal for your child too. The best thing you can do for your child is to keep this young person well away from your parents. I would not put it past your mother either to try and steal her heart and mind away from you as her parents.

Yeti

Your experience does not in any way pale in comparison amongst other people's experiences.

What is your dad like as a person?. Is your brother and for that matter your other sister really a carbon copy of him?.

Its not your fault the sibling abuse happened to you and you did not make these people this way. Your family of origin tore themselves apart of their own design and through no fault of your own.

I would think your parents are and remain angry rather than being actually devastated that you have not towed the party line and resumed communications with either abusive sibling. I would maintain the position you have taken i.e. no contact. No good would come of restarting contact.

Examine your reasons far more closely for wanting to have a relationship with your parents. What do you want to achieve by having a relationship with them?. They are your parents yes but were they good parents to you when you were growing up?. It appears not so why would you want to try and seek their approval, approval that is conditional and unfair to say the very least i.e. make peace with your sibling abusers. They are basically telling you not to rock the boat, this is being done by your parents for their own self interest. They are still not listening to you and in all likelihood never have done so.

They have their own reasons for doing this and those are nothing to do with your personally. They have certainly not acted in your best interests at all here; only their own. They also created this dynamic as well and I suppose that their "friends" (I use that term advisedly because such people rarely have friends) have enquired about their now adult children.

Thanks for your replies. For some reason I find it really difficult to read people being sympathetic. Really, really hard. And I feel guilty. I honestly believe that my parents have always tried their best and meant well. They have made mistakes but they really did try. They supported me financially as a student and emotionally when I had breakdowns. My df means well. He has a hot temper and terrible mood swings, depression, anxiety. Not violent but used to scream and shout and throw things. Rarely any more as he is not in good health. I am like him in a lot of ways but would never allow my children to treat each other the way I was treated.

I don’t know why I so desperately want to keep a relationship with them and seek their approval but I do. I feel like a child instead of a grown woman. Btw in my every day life I am a happily married, professional person. I don’t know why this rotten corner of my life affects me so badly.

not violent but used to scream and shout and throw things
That is acting violently. Normal people don’t behave that way, certainly in front of children.

Yeti I can only describe it as being like (what I understand of) Stockholm syndrome. I should've moved many, many miles away but I couldn't at the time. I can't explain why - I suppose it was my normality and what I knew.

It is possible to come out the other side.

@BuckingFrolics i find it difficult to act differently as it is easier on my mental health if I just give in and don't rock the boat. I know it isn't rational or healthy but at the moment I don't know if I can battle with her over this.

@AttilaTheMeerkat Thankyou for your reply, I have lots to think about and discuss with my partner. I hope everyone is feeling strong today x

Yeti

You would like to think that these people tried their best as a self preservation measure but they were and remain lacking. That is not your fault, the fault lies with them.

BTW what if anything do you know about their own family backgrounds?. That often gives clues but again its no justification or excuse for their actions and poor choices made.

Your parents best was not good enough and both of them actively failed you and actually continue to do so. There is no justification or excuse here for their actions both then or now. They went on to further raise two abusive siblings, both of whom sound like a carbon copy of your abusive dad. He is now old but he has not fundamentally changed since your own childhood and for that matter nor has your mother. She plays a pivotal role also in this dysfunctional family unit. She chose to stay with her husband for her own reasons and threw you under the bus in the process.

It is indeed to your credit that you have not repeated the same old with your own children; that takes real guts, strength and courage.

If you have not already embarked on therapy I would suggest you look into doing this. BACP are good and do not charge the earth and you may want to contact NAPAC as well. You may also want to read some of the resources at the start of this thread, particularly the "recovery of the inner child" publication.

SingingLily - Thank you for your reply And well done for deciphering my ramblings. You have it exactly right and I've realised my last post was meant for a different thread so double thank you for such a spot on reply

Yes, I've been NC with my father for 2 years after I asked why both dsis and I were not included in a family celebration and he retaliated with extreme rage. However, he continues to send birthday and Christmas cards - sometimes in the post but mostly via dsis. The dsis who buries her head. But after reading through some posts on here, I am seeing more and more issues with hers and my relationship.

This thread has been a huge eye-opener and I very much wish I'd read it when this first kicked off. I might have avoided the last two years of self-doubt!!

It makes me sad that so many people are dealing with such difficult relationships and the fallout from dysfunctional childhoods but there are so many supportive posters on here, it gives me confidence that things will be ok.

One of my biggest fears is that I am the same as my parents. I've always had a tricky relationship with my mother so have tried very hard not to replicate her style of parenting but because the realisation that my father's behaviour not being normal is such a recent thing, what if the damage is already done?!

Hello,

Can I join?
I'm not new to MN over 10 years.

I've always known how vile my family have been to me and it is only me, like it or not I'm the black sheep of my family.

Now in middle age I realise I need to find a way to heal but I'm lost.

If it's ok I'd like to stay here, read and try to find a way that is my way.

Wow great thread- placemarking till I have time to read it properly. Feel this will help my DH with his absent and dysfunctional family where his mum is the cause of many an issue including his anxiety but she 'obviously' is not the cause.

One of my biggest fears is that I am the same as my parents.

Clutterfreeintraining, the very fact that you doubt yourself suggests to me that you are nothing like your parents. If my experience of my mother is anything to go by, such people have no doubts. Why should they? They are utterly perfect already. It's everyone around them who is substandard and really quite a disappointment.

So, don't despair. As long as you keep finding ways to make your children feel loved and safe and secure, I would say you're already winning in the parent stakes. 💐

DD12, it took me a long time too, even though all the signs were there all the way through my life if only I'd cared to see. I hope this thread helps you and Kanga83, just as it helped me.

Any advice on what to do about my and my sisters dc’s? We’ve both decided to go NC, our kids are between 18 and 22. (My DM has written to my dsis telling her how awful she is)
Reading the threads it seems their GP’s will throw all their efforts into them? My DSis’s kids I think will want to be NC, they know what the GP’s are like with their mum, and already try and avoid them.
I’ve always tried to be positive, despite now seeing lots of times with my kids which were really dysfunctional. My dc’s are adults really now, but that doesn’t make them less vulnerable to being used as cannon fodder.
I’m just going to have to be really honest and say it’s up to them, but recommend they are super cautious.

My DBil is heartbroken apparently and still wants to fix things.

Holy crap, 200 messages in a week!
I've been hoping to be a bit more active on this thread after a couple of busy months but bloody hell it's moving fast these days.

Herocomplex my kids are small but they'll use the same techniques of triangulation and bribery to try and get your kids onside. I think the only danger really is if there are any long running disagreements between you and your kids, that's the sort of thing they'll try to use to get some leverage, try and set you against each other a bit. I think the best thing is as you say to advise them just to be cautious, but otherwise to be quite boundaried about it - as adults they're entitled to have a relationship with her if they want, you don't have to, you can practise boundaried behaviour by not asking them about her and making sure that if she tries to make shite by having them carry messages to you, it stops with you, not saying anything back IYSWIM. I mean hopefully they will soon see what she's like. It's not bad having some experience of what manipulative and narcissistic people are like, she's not the last one they'll meet in life.

What's your BIL heartbroken about? It's not his mum, is it? Did you post on the last thread under a different name or on a separate thread? I have like a memory of a BIL who was all like "but faaaamily" - was that you? Sorry, I've the memory skills of an easily distracted goldfish.

DD12 I would recommend having a look at Pete Walker's books (his website is in the OP) which deal more with the healing end of things (Toxic Parents is a good book as well but it's more aimed at understanding and managing the relationship). And welcome

Clutterfree, what *singinglily" said. You've got insight, your kids' best interests are centred in your view of the world, you're not doing what your parents did. You worry that dysfunction is something that you could accidently pick up and pass on, that as your parents didn't mean it, you wouldn't either. But I believe that at some level they did make a decision to act the way they did with us, and we've made the decision not to, and we might not be perfect, but we're a hell of a lot better than they are.

Hero

I would be advising your kids to steer well clear of your parents altogether given how you as their DD no less have been and remain treated by them. I would remind them that if they are too toxic/difficult/batshit for you as their DD to deal with, its the same deal for them too. The only people also who bother with such people as well are those who have received special training i.e. the adult children of narcissists.

This sort of scenario you describe is precisely why I do somewhat bang on about keeping narcissistic parents away from their now adult child's most precious resource, their kids.

Why is your BIL heartbroken apparently and wanting to fix things?. What is his agenda here?. (Perhaps he grew up within an emotionally healthy family himself so thinks this can be sorted out with a chat. If that is the case what he fails to realise is that the rulebook goes completely out the window when it comes to dysfunctional families).

I would certainly agree with toomuchtooold that your parents may well want to still try and win their hearts and minds by providing them with tuition fees, gifts like cars etc. They will in all likelihood use them to try and punish you.