"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I feel like I'm complicit in it.

Karlwho, you were four. A four year old cannot be complicit in anything. I am so so sorry for what you are going through now; your mental anguish is so clear and so understandable. 💐

And yes, counselling can make you feel worse....but then you start to feel better. I felt totally vulnerable and drained after the first couple of sessions and then I felt as though I was starting to "rebuild" but in a healthier way. I hope it helps to talk it through, I really do.

Herocomplex you've hit the mark, on it 'taking on a life of it's own'. It feels like this is the main thing now and I don't know how to deal with it.
The counsellor I spoke to this morning was a bit unsu re of what I told her as she said she wasn 't too clear on this type of abusive and some of it blurred line s. The thing that happened when I was four (not sure of exact age, but couldn't of been older because I remember the house), I don't remember EXACTLY. I have no recollection of anything prior to it, or afterwards. I just remember something very weird happening and strangely (or not, I'm new to this) how I felt when it was happening. The other stuff happened when I was a teen, and I was never 'touched' but there was a couple of incidents that were very unusual that the counsellor weren't sure where they fit in terms of abuse. i kind of wish I remembered this properly so I coukd be clearer on things, but at samr time dont. I want peace.
Ever since the big confrontation wit h npd mother at the start of this year, tonnes of this horrible, negative crap has been filling my head, and I have no idea why or where it's came from. Hurtful comments, situations etc that I'd conpletrly forgotten have resurfaced. Is this normal?

SingingLily thanks for your words and assurance that it gets better. I'm willing to go throug h all the grief again and again if it means I'll finally get better. Just took me by surprise; they don't show this stuff on tv!

I wish mental health/family issues weren't such a taboo topic. If not for mumsnet and one other forum, I really wouldn't know where else to turn.

I constantly find myself coming back to this thread and reading other peoples relationships with their parents and trying to decipher wether my mother is actually a selfish narc or it's just me being sensitive.

A bit of background first, childhood was mainly good, however there have been several incidents that stick out in my mind as not being 'normal' behaviour from my mother. For example if i did something she did not agree with growing up she would give me the silent treatment and/or make me feel terribly guilty for not doing things her way.

We all went away for a family holiday once when I was around 16, she got drunk and made a bit of a tit of herself, then didn't speak to me or another family member for three whole days after the incident as apparently we had made her feel embarrassed about what she had done and even though that night my dad had said she was in the wrong, she managed to convince him afterwards it was actually me who was wrong and I ended up being 'told off' by them both after we came home.

Continuously there had been the theme of my mother getting everything her own way over the years and now even though I have my own child and house and partner she will still guilt trip as she did when I was younger if I don't do something she wants me to do.

An example at the moment being that she wants me to take my son away for a few days with them on holiday which of course is fine but my partner couldn't come as he has to work and my son is teething, and the whole thing just has stress written all over it. I have said I will go and stay with them at their house (they live 40 mins away) so she can see her grandson but I don't think its a good idea to be so far from home but apparently this isnt good enough. She will not meet in the middle and even now will use my father to guilt trip me by contacting me and saying how upset my mother is etc.

I am functioning on very little sleep at the moment and have just started on sertraline for PND so I don't know wether I am just blowing the holiday thing out of proportion and it is actually me being a cow.

Another thing to add is she has depression so I think maybe my father had always allowed her to do or say whatever she wants as he doesn't want her upset.

If somebody could clarify for me wether I am being silly and she is just being an annoying mum or there is more to it from the info I have given I would be very grateful.

@BunnyFlozza I don't thinj you're being silly or over reacting. Your feelings are true to you, and if it feels lije it'll be a nightmare it probably will be.
It sounds like the holiday/trip will be predominantly you trying to keep your mum happy, and it sounds like you have enoug h going on without trying to entertain an emotionally immature parent.
Sorry you're going through this.

@Karlwho Thankyou for replying. Would you say it is normal for narcs to be emotionally immature or is that just a general trait some people have? Just really trying to understand why she is the way she is. Also wondering wether my father pandering to her every whim all these years due to her depression has made her worse.

Hi Bunny

It is indeed not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

At the very least your mother is and has been emotionally abusive (the silent treatment is an example of emotional abuse) and your dad, her husband, is really her enabler and also secondary abuser here. He has abjectly failed to protect you from his wife's excesses of behaviours here and you have and are still suffering as a result. People from such dysfunctional families end up playing roles; what is yours here?.

What if anything do you know about your parents respective childhoods?. That will often give clues.

Has your mother ever by the way been treated for depression?. Probably not. I would wonder how much of this is actually due to depression versus how much of this from her is due to her actually being abusive (far more likely) and her actions are about wanting power and control.

So no, you are not being sensitive, silly, an annoying mum nor are you a cow here (this is all what you describe yourself as and you are wrong. Have people like your mother insinuated that you are this?). Its not you, its your parents in particular your mother. Its not your fault they are like this and you did not make them that way.

Toxic people like your parents more often than not are toxic as grandparents too. Given how your mother and father have treated you (neither were good parents to you when growing up) I would certainly not want either of them to spend any amount of time with their grandchild, your son. Why should they take him on holiday with them just because your mother demands it?. Any compromise offered is outright rejected and indeed that happened. This is yet another example of your mother wanting her own way. Your son is your most precious resource and you really do need to protect him from such malign influences (look at how you've been affected by them). If they are too toxic, difficult, are narcissistic or otherwise batshit for you to deal with its the same deal for him as well.

I also think your boundaries are pretty much shot as well mainly because your mother and father never really encouraged you to have any (hence you writing of course its okay re mother taking your son on holiday). I am wondering too whether you are also in a FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) state with regards to your parents, it very much seems so.

What does your partner think of your parents?.

Do read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward as a starting point and read the website entitled daughters of narcissistic mothers. Do also consider seeing a therapist and one at that who has NO familial bias about keeping families together.

Can anyone offer any suggestions? I’ve read through so much now, I’m fairly sure my mother is a narcissist (doesn’t listen, dismissive and critical of people, gets jealous of others, short-tempered and controlling, changes stories to suit her purposes, has a conversational style which puzzles people - they don’t know quite where they are with her, constantly looking for reassurance and praise, a lack of any insight, never apologises - ever). My father was angry and sarcastic when I was little, and used smacking and humiliation to get what he wanted. Now I’m older he’s become sad about the things he’s done and said, but I think it’s because I’m an adult now and he realises he needs to use different control methods. My sister was always the ‘difficult’ one, and they treat her like a disappointing silly girl even though she’s in her thirties now, she’s had enough and basically has phased them out as much as possible. My mother is furious and has told my sister that she doesn’t want to see her again because of her terrible behaviour. It’s all ‘imagined’ behaviour, but my mother can’t see anything from my sisters point of view, so described it as being all about her.
They’re going to ask me if I know, so I’ve got to decide. Say yes, my sister told me and I’m appalled, and what’s to stop you doing the same to me if I don’t toe the line? My mother will blame my sister, saying she’s trying to get sympathy.
Or I can say no, it’s none of my business, and carry on.
The most depressing thing i read is the part about it not being possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. That’s so painful.
I don’t know if this makes sense, it looks so crap written down.

@BunnyFlozza I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on narcissism; everything I know I learnt from my own research after someone mentioned my mother sounded like she has NPD lol. My own 'mum' meets almost all the criteria for being an 'engulfing covert narcissist ', but obviously it will never be diagnosed lol as there is 'nothing wrong with (her)'.
When you said about your mum getting drunk, acting a fool, then shifting the blame when realising other people didn't approve of her behaviour, is something that a kid would do when they've been busted doing something they shouldn't. Making you accountable for her behaviour is immature too; you were a kid and an easy target, so sounds like you were scapegoated. Did you get fixed with the blame a lot? For your mum or siblings? That's apparently common behaviour of a narc.
As for your dad pandering to her - whenever my 'mum' got a new boyfriend, she HAD to be the centre of attention. Shhe absolutely thrived off of it. If she was unwell, having her bf waiting hand and foot on her was minimum requirements. If I didn't show enough sympathy/interest in her, I'd pay for it.

I think the more attention they get, the more they demand.

Oh god BunnyFlozza you posted while I was writing mine. I did that exact thing when my DS was tiny, went away with them and felt awful. Don’t do it if you’re worried. Look after yourself.

Its not your fault your parents are like this and neither you or your sister made them that way.

Women like your mother cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are either as narcissistic or otherwise abusive as they are or otherwise discarded. Your dad has also failed you and your sibling abjectly here. Narcissistic family structures often have scapegoats and golden children within them and these roles are interchangeable.

I would support your sister, think your mother has done your sister a favour actually. How do you see your parents reacting to you now?.

Would you have tolerated your mother's behaviour at all from a friend; probably not. Your mother is no different.

The reddit thread entitled "raised by narcissists" is worth a read.

Thank you Attila my sister said she feels incredibly sad, but relieved.
My DH asked if there was any chance my mother might go for counselling but I said she’d just sneer at anyone in that position, she’s dismissive of (but quite frightened by) experts. Key NPD trait, it seems.
I’ve tried to batten this down for years, tried to be a ‘good girl’ to earn their approval. It doesn’t work does it?

And no, I’m quite good at spotting and getting rid of toxic ‘friends’ now after many years of people pleasing.

@AttilaTheMeerkat everything you say makes so much sense now I think about it. As far as I know both my father and mother had relatively normal childhoods, my mother however does harbour bad feeling towards my grandfather but will not tell me why even though I have asked her. She has been treated for depression in the past but weaned herself off her tablets if I remember rightly.

My mother had told me she is 'so upset' we aren't going away with them and the easy thing to do is just give in to her and end the horrible feeling of guilt in the pit of my stomach but then if I did that I suppose that would be ME enabling her behaviour.

The thing is, I absolutely love my dad, he is the most lovely gentle person ever and I feel like he just wanted an easy life then and an easy life now which I kind of get. There were times growing up where my mother wouldn't speak to my dad for days on end if he ever stuck up for me and I felt so sorry for him.

My partner really likes my father and he does like my mother because she doesn't constantly act like a child but that's usually because we are all pandering to her. He is such a chilled out person but if he thinks something is wrong he says it how it is. A couple of times he has nearly contacted her when she has upset me but I have stopped him just because I don't want to cause more aggravation.

@Karlwho I do think I was a scapegoat for a lot of incidents, also my brother didn't seem to get it in the neck as much as I did but then I think that's because he stood up to my mother more.

I'm so sorry for how your mother treated you she sounds such hard work.

@Herocomplex it's so hard when they are tiny isn't it, he is PFB too so I'm probably being super over cautious but parents aren't meant to make you feel guilty about these things are they xx

BunnyFlozza no, parents should make you feel nurtured and valued.
Your Dad sounds really nice, but don’t lose sight of the fact that he can see what she’s doing to you and is choosing the path of least resistance.
Your DH sounds lovely. Maybe you should let him rock the boat a little?

@Herocomplex Thankyou for your kind wise words. You are obviously going through the mill with your mother too, but I feel like you are so much stronger than I am. Do you ever get along with her or is it always difficult?

In regards to my dad it does disappoint me that he knows how she is and allows it to happen but then it must be difficult for him to break the cycle too. It's almost like he had been conditioned by her aswel.

I think you may be right about rocking the boat with my partner. He has also noticed how she will go to the ends of earth for my brother but not really me and that isn't something I have ever voiced to him so it must be obvious.

Ha! BunnyFlozza To the world in general I am a strong accomplished person, I have a lovely life and am good at helping others, personally and professionally.
My kryptonite is my relationship with my parents in which I am pathetic, I change completely when I’m with them, will do anything to please them. I’m like two different people, which I hate myself for.
You are vulnerable at the moment with your little baby, and you maybe feel like this is your chance to make some new happy family memories and you desperately want your mum to nurture you, and she will, but as you’ve seen it’s on her terms. If you can accept those terms there is a price to pay, I wish it were different.
My mum was lovely with my children, but I always felt I had to subsume my own self to accommodate her, or face her feeling sorry for herself and disappointed in me.

And your question about getting on with them? I would say when I’m with them I’m in a state of constant hyper vigilance waiting for the next thing I might get wrong. It’s exhausting.

@Herocomplex you said you felt you had to 'subsume yourself to accomodate her' - that's exactly how I felt. My mother was an abysmal parent to me, but I gave her the benefit of the doubt as she was good with my kids. Bit like redeeming herself by being a decent grandma (didn't last long). All the while I was sacrificing myself, pretending to be someone I'm not to appease her.
I understand what you meant completely.

That’s so incredibly angering isn’t it karlwho, when you see it? And one of the reasons it’s so tiring. My parents had awful childhoods, I feel so sorry for them. But as is pointed out time and time again on this thread - that is not my fault, I cannot fix it, and I shouldn’t suffer because of it.

@Herocomplex I think you sound like a very brave person and not pathetic at all, it's so true that you cannot change who they are and I'm sorry you are constantly weary of upsetting them that's a horrible way to feel.

I have come to a compromise and said I will go but only stay for two nights, and if she screams and screams and won't sleep and they have a shit time because of it, then that's on them.

I had the classic message off my dad that I KNEW was coming about how she is so upset blah blah blah. Why can't she fight her own battles instead of getting my dad to text me?

*he

Bunny

Its because he is her enabler and secondary abuser Bunny. This is a man who has facilitated her abuse of the children, who worships completely at her altar and expects the children to do so too. Or perhaps he does not worship as much as fears her; but the result is the same: he is her sidekick, making sure that she is kept happy no matter the cost to his children. He is her hatchet man and really therefore cannot be relied upon at all either. His need to have chosen for himself a "good wife" is paramount above all others.

Women like your mother cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are basically either as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded. He has thrown you under the bus because of his wanting to have a quiet life and be a bystander to her abuses of you.

Your brother did not cop it quite as much from your family of origin because he is in all likelihood the golden child. His role however, is a role also not without price although he is unaware of the precise price to be paid.

I would not even entertain your parents for one night let alone two. Do think about reconsidering because if she screams it will be your fault anyway. This whole invite is what your mother wants/demands; your own wishes have not and will not be at all taken into consideration here.

You have been badly affected by your parents toxicity; do not for the love of all that is good allow your child, your most precious resource, to be similarly harmed. It will happen if the opportunity is presented to them and you will blame yourself for allowing them to have any relationship with your child.