"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
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July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
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March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I’ve lurked on this thread a while, it’s helpful to know others have had the same kind of experiences.

@SimplySteveRedux, I’m in a similar situation. I have an appointment at a breast clinic next week. My rational side knows the majority of lumps are found to be benign. The side of me that has spent years breaking free from my family is very anxious. They will see this as a chance to swoop in and start again “with a clean slate”. Except the slate will be the same shitty, mucky one it’s always been. I am more afraid of the task of fighting off my family than the potential of illness.
Let’s hope we both get good news.

Hello all I hope you don’t mind me joining the thread, I’m after some advice regarding my parents specifically my ‘D’M and whilst after reading the thread I’m aware that my problem isn’t as abusive as others I could still do with some help.
My situation blew up on my daughters birthday when (to cut a long story short) I was standing in my kitchen with DH 2xDD and both of my parents who had been away for the weekend to visit friends called in on the way back and asked if I’d like the punnet of strawberries she’d brought back with her to serve with the birthday cake. I took them off her and preceded to start to chop them to with I was told no I’m doing it wrong. I at that point tried to laugh it off and carried on cutting, to which my M tried to take the knife off me to do it herself. Well I afraid I rather erupted and told her I knew how to cut a fucking strawberry up and I was sick of her always criticising what and how I do things.
Now I know I was probably wrong in how I approached this, by shouting at her, however I am a 44 yr old mother of 2 who’s been married forever so I think I can cut up at strawberry!
This is also the latest in a long list of little things that has happened. For example my father doesn’t drive so when my M had her knee replaced I was asked as the only local child to take them shopping and to some hospital appointments, this resulted in criticism of my driving and use of a sat-nav (you know where your going and we’ll direct you were common phrases - no I use it to avoid traffic!)
I also still feel obliged to tell them if we’re doing anything to the house and take their opinion into consideration. I’m also made to feel like I’m not good enough (house/parent to my kids etc) and I have also been told by them that if me and DH have an argument then they’ll take his side as they know what I’m like.
Anyway my outburst resulted in my mother grabbing her keys and bag and staying that she knows where she’s not welcome and her and my dad left.
This happened at least 2 months ago and I had seen either of them until I saw my D last Friday. I was asked if I was going to apologise, I said what for and was told I had brandished a knife at my M (errr no, I was trying to stop her taking it off me) when I said this I was immediately shut down by him and he wouldn’t let me speak so I stopped trying and he shouted then walked off.
Today I’ve had a phone call from my M asking if I’m ok and again if I had an apology (again, no) and what she had done wrong. When I tried to speak I was again shut down so I commented that were never going to agree. At that point she said that she misses my 2xDD and then put the phone down.
I have since received a message asking me to list all the things she’s done wrong and this is where - if you’re still reading - I need your help!
I want to ignore the message but my DH (who completely has my back) want me to at least try to communicate for the sake of the relationships.
What do I do??

My apologies that was long!!

Hi @Exsmelly😊
I think I would be inclined to just ignore them and leave them to stew, it sounds as if they are cutting you out as a punishment for not deferring to them?
I would want to keep in control of the situation and I wouldn't apologise, if they don't come back it sounds like they've done you a favour?
What do you see as your options?

Hmm, asking you to list he things she's done wrong?
sounds like they've been reading gransnet and are trying to anticipate you?!
im getting the impression they're kind of on edge and scared of losing you?
(Apologies if I'm reading you wrong!)

Don't back down this could be your chance to get on top of the situation and stop the ridiculous controlling behaviour that you've been subjected to
once you start to feel in control once you experience standing up to them and realise there's nothing they can do about it that gives you a feeling of power
sorry about my rambling response hopefully someone else will come up with something concise 😁

They’re trying to bring you back into line ExSmelly. The question is, why on earth would you?

They clearly feel you’re their property to speak to and criticise as that see fit. I’m betting you’ve bent over backwards to fit in with their rules. Your DH sees them as they are, I think?

Thanks for the reply!
Personally I don't want to reply to them as I'm afraid it'll just get minimised and they'll disagree that any of it happened and that it's me that's in the wrong, however my DH thinks I should.
I can honestly say tho that the 2 months spent not being in contact as been great as I've not worried about what they might think or say so I'm thinking that low contact would be for the best for me.
They also said that they missed my DD's but they never come round to see them (we don't live too far) however they're always making the trips up north to visit my sister and brother and virtually pass the door on the way back yet never come??

I think they are a pair of amateurs, trying to use a no contact strategy to bring you back into line but they can't resist phoning you to ask if you're ready to apologise yet, imo they sense they don't have enough leverage to put it off.
This is your chance to out manoeuvre them and bring them into line
it's a straight game of brinkmanship, you can win it

Spot on Hero!
In the last 2 months we've made a home improvement which is probably the first time I've not consulted them and it feels great!!

Something a bit like this happened to me, she cut me off to bring me back into line and it was great, such a relief not to have to deal with her, couple years later I went back for a while but she slipped back to her old ways and I decided to make it final this time.
15 years, never looked back 💃

I think you and your DH should both look at the out of the FOG website, it might help him to see what might be going on.

People from ‘normal’ families can make reparations, people can say sorry, and care that other people are upset. I’m not sure that’s the case with you and your parents from what you say about your history with them, and the way they’re behaving now.

Think about it, you can avoid all the s* and all the drama, your siblings will have to deal with them and you can just turn your back 😁

@AttilaTheMeerkat.
Your posts are excellent and resonate with me so strongly.
I haven't gone back through all this thread again but what you have said has reiterated to me that I am doing the best thing by cutting my parents out of our lives. My children don't need to be exposed to their toxicity.
Even writing that makes my shoulders feel lighter so I have my answer right there.
Strength to everyone struggling or trying to make sense of their situations.
It should be the easiest relationship you have...hollow laugh.

Thank you all for your replies, I think for the moment I'm just going to ignore and see what happens and in the mean time look up the FOG website

@ExSmellyArmPits, sounds incredibly similiar to my situation.
I wrote a massive text, saved it as a draft and blocked their numbers.
Vented but left them with nothing to rail against. They miss the kids? Tough shit.
Should have thought through behaving like a couple of idiots first.
So done with the constant game playing and second guessing everything.

I guess before NC then there has to be a bit of soul searching? For example I can’t tell from your posts @ExSmellyArmPits whether there is a chance you still get something from your relationship? And whether it’s an over bossy overbearing parental relationship which does have some love and warmth? Only you can know I guess.

My ILs are toxic. @SpamChaudFroid I get the using money. FIL was horrible to DH, yet DH would make excuses for him, but ultimately saw very little of him later in life, understandably. But when FIL died he made sure his will singled out his favorite son - 90% and favourite daughter. Leaving DH and his young disabled brother with nothing. I had always been wary of FIL, an alcoholic, but had visited him a few times so that he could see his grandchild. But the will made me think, what a dispicable man, using money like that.

I just came back from a five week holiday and saw my parents today. I live nearby and my mum is fantastic in every way. I had made up my mind while I was away to stop the toxicity with my dad. He is a very difficult individual and I have been extremely damaged by him. While away I reflected and decided I could rise above his digs and refuse to engage. However during a short conversation today he managed to get to me (although I hid it and it is only now I am lying in bed worrying about it). He literally cannot have a conversation without resorting to insults and sarcasm. When he did it today I just smiled and he walked away. From an analytical perspective I can see clearly it is him and not me, and from that perspective I pity him, but emotionally, the power this man has over me to disturb my mood, my self esteem, my whole sense of self worth, terrifies me and from an emotional perspective, I hate him.

I can't lose contact with my mum though. I try to avoid speaking to him as much as possible because his contempt and rudeness wound me deeply. He is a very sad and angry person but that is not my problem, and I have my own issues to deal with that are largely due to him. Sorry, I just needed to vent.

I watched a video clip on fb earlier of steve irwin talking about how much he loved his daughter and I was just blown away because my father never expressed happiness that I can recall, only anger, rage, fury and resentment expressed in nasty, bitter insults. It made me sad that I missed that and sad that I worshipped him as a child.

@thisisgettingridiculous what’s your mums take on the way your father behaves? I have very similar situation but I have never liked my stepfather (he’s never given me a reason too 😂). Your situation is interesting to me as I used to feel that way about my mother but once I had my daughter I questioned why my mother had allowed her husband to treat me so shittily. Do you ever have these thoughts/feelings? If you can have a relationship separate to him then do it I’d say. My stepfather won’t ‘allow’ it and she allows him to not allow it so shows her true colours right there. I hope your mum is different xx

@ExSmellyArmPits if you haven’t got audible you can sign up for a free trial and get out of the fog as your free book, if you fancy doing that x

@DrWAnker ‘it should be the easiest relationship you have’ ha ha ha indeed!

@ExSmellyArmPits I’d reiterate what the others say and advise to not join in their game. The strawberry incident is typical behaviour, they can act like dicks and if you retaliate in any way it gets twisted into something that makes them the victim and although there’s a grain of truth in the story they spin it’s, essentially, a load of bollocks. These people are pathological liars, I don’t think they even know they are doing it glad the time. Messed up. I’d love to see how they reacted if we had done half the things we got accused of! X

@LaLoba Good luck for next week, I think a lot of the time rationality disappears when the "C" word is mentioned. I hope we are both more than a little tipsy after receiving good news next week.

The side of me that has spent years breaking free from my family is very anxious. They will see this as a chance to swoop in and start again “with a clean slate”. Except the slate will be the same shitty, mucky one it’s always been. I am more afraid of the task of fighting off my family than the potential of illness.

Very apt, and I completely agree. It's a chance to re-establish the relationship purely on their terms, with the potentiality of significant illness an excuse to express "concern", except it's nothing of the sort, instead their driver being the manifestation and re-establishment of the control that is/was present, a unique opportunity to get a tighter grip over our lives. Illness itself has no motives, in its worst state it simply wants to kill; proponents of familial abuse on the other hand are cunning, devious, deceptive, fraudulent and manipulative.

TooMuch wrote "
They do seem to sweep in when you're at a real low and then kick you when you're down", and it's certainly no coincidence, it's a calculated act and they know exactly what they are doing.

Again, good luck for next week

It should be the easiest relationship you have...hollow laugh.

It should, but relationships are a two-way street, requiring work, respect, support and love from both parties. These fuckers are only interested in playing on one carriageway of the motorway with us a secured target for them to aim at.

@ExSmellyArmPits

At that point she said that she misses my 2xDD and then put the phone down.

It's all about your children for her, you're an inanimate object (well, to her) that she sees as being able to treat like crap, and you've spent years being conditioned by their rules and expectations. Not normal rules and expectations either, but with a component of scapegoating and intense criticism. The strawberries (I want some strawberries now...) were simply another entry in the massive list of your "wrongdoings". Have you questioned any of their behaviour and had them re-write history? "It wasn't like that, you were such a difficult child, etc". All parents experience periods of abject desperation and frustration yet we somehow manage to not take it out on our children.

You should think carefully about whether you want your DDs to see the behaviour towards you, and (personal experience) these people will attempt to weaponise your precious children against you.

It sounds like the penny's dropped, you'll find a lot of "a-ha" moments in the outofthefog.website , audiobook (there's an audiobook?!), and Susan Forward's "Toxic Parents".

Finally, write your list, but never send it, it would validate the actions as having a detrimental effect on you and be the ultimate confirmation to carry on, or even escalate matters.

@DrWAnker I saw that thread too!! Very fast on nabbing the username ;)