"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
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December 2013
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@thisisgettingridiculous

So your father has had five weeks to prepare ways to drag you back into a toxic relationship. With the greatest of respect, you describe being "extremely damaged by him", yet wish to continue the relationship. What are you getting out of this? Is it the I can't lose contact with my mum though.? He is a deeply offensive and abusive man, where has your mother been while this has been going on? Why has she never stood up for you? Do you think she, too, is entrenched in a toxic and dysfunctional relationship with this man?

emotionally, the power this man has over me to disturb my mood, my self esteem, my whole sense of self worth, terrifies me and from an emotional perspective, I hate him.

It very much sounds like your holiday has given you perspective. Lots of people have sacrificed themselves on the altar in order to maintain a relationship with the other parent. Sadly, there are many cases where the other parent is aware what is happening and a passive enabler. These, numerous, SH threads alone have hundreds of examples over the years.

If your mother is in a toxic relationship and trapped, she has to make the decision to get out - you will not be able to do this for her.

As so often recommended, https://outofthefog.website and Susan Forward's "Toxic Parents" book will give you clarity and insight. It sounds that you are experiencing the Fear, Obligation, Guilt axis, and that so long away helped you realise this. Please don't be the latest sheep.

@SimplySteveRedux
Couldn't resist, it seemed so fitting after reading that one ;-)
Finally, write your list, but never send it, it would validate the actions as having a detrimental effect on you and be the ultimate confirmation to carry on, or even escalate matters.
It's just resisting that urge to point out how totally ridiculous their behaviour is, isn't it? But I've finally clicked that you cannot argue with batshit crazy people as all that will happen is that they use it to fire back at you/play the victim and once more you are in the wrong.

Only taken me 40 odd years to realise it's NOT ME! And if you feel a weight off your shoulders not having to interact with someone then that says it all really.

EXSmellyarmpits

I would keep both your parents well at arms length from now on in. And do not reply to their message; what your parents want from you is a response so they know they have you then.

I can see your DHs point but the thing is his family of origin are in all likelihood emotionally healthy - unlike yours - so the usual rules here do not apply. The rulebook really does go out the window when it comes to dysfunctional and emotionally unhealthy families.

BTW what sort of a relationship do your siblings have with your parents?. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles and I cannot help but think you are the scapegoat in your family of origin. Your dad seems very much to be his wife's enabler and therefore her secondary abuser.

DrWAnker

Thank you for your kind comments

@exsmellyarmpits, regarding the request for a detailed list of everything they've done wrong, ulterego nailed this in a pp:
she will receive it in the manner of a headmistress who receives your written assignment and then delightedly destroys it with her red pen

If they're anything like my mother they'll receive it in a sort of "even condemned criminals should be allowed to read the charges against them" high dudgeon and then as ulterego says they'll go through it line by line and probably pick out one single thing that they feel able to ridicule and share that with anyone who ever asks why you're not getting on.

This post from Issendai is a really good guide to this stuff.

Hello steve! Been ages. The kids are in their last two weeks of summer holiday... we've reached the "browsing Netflix while eating last night's pizza in your pyjamas" level of activity in here so I'm getting to the computer a bit more often

That Issendai page is sooo powerful, wish I'd seen it sooner. These quoted parts are straight from The Narc's Playbook aren't they.

Never understood the attraction of cold pizza!

Yes, reading this is therapeutic.

I remember contacting an Aunt (Mother's Sister) last year and being told that I was a devious, manipulative, vindictive child (amongst other delightful properties). Mother's parents died when Mother was about 35/40, her siblings much younger. Said Aunt is 15-ish years younger. Aunt elucidated to me that without my Mother she and the other siblings would've had nobody to care for them. So why did they get more love and attention than me, and why do NONE of these siblings whom adore her so much never see her anymore, despite two of them living under five minutes walk away !

Issendai is awesome. I wish they would write more - everything they write makes sense (except for the stuff about Stardew Valley. It is so not worth trying to get married early on in Stardew Valley ). They have a livejournal from back in the day that is full of good stuff, if you're bored...

Regarding your aunt... there's similar in both my parents' families. People are complex... I think a lot of people who were neglected as kids (both my parents were) become very good at meeting a child's physical needs but nothing else. I think my mum, even outside of the NPD, was genuinely outraged that a childhood where I had an own room and clothes bought new from the shop wasn't enough to make me permanently happy with a smile plastered on my face 24/7

Oh wow, thanks for the Issendai link. That’s so helpful to get insight into the denial part of the problem. My last phone call with my DM was her demanding a list of reasons why my sister was not in touch with her. I agree with the idea that she has been told by my sister for years, but she just doesn’t accept that it’s a problem because it’s not been a problem for HER.
Thank you, very powerful.

I’d say your Aunt has got a ton of unprocessed grief and anger. You’re the designated recipient SimplySteve.

My favourite Issendai post (which toomuch originally linked to, a few years ago on one of these threads) is this one:

issendai.livejournal.com/627153.html

It's quite tricky to find, so I have it bookmarked on my phone and re-read if every now and again for my own sanity.

Is that drop the rope? It is! I love that one.

Hey while we're doing links, if anyone's not aware of Captain Awkward - she's very good. I think she's taken a step back from the emotional abuse stuff recently but there's an excellent archive.

Is 40 pages the limit? Will there be a new thread?

@toomuchtooold Thank you for taking the time to reply. i'm sorry you understand.

Hi Stately People

I didn't ever think I'd find myself posting on here despite lurking for some time - perhaps that should have been a clue??!

I hope you don't mind me joining you but I'm hoping for a safe space to vent and sort through my feelings and emotions. It could be a long one....

Backstory; only child, I'm now 44 years of age, married almost 20 years, 2 kids, emigrated years ago, have an awesome life and fabulous husband, kids and circle of friends. I'm VERY, VERY lucky.

Two weeks ago, husband and I were involved in a close friend's wedding. Kids too. My in-laws were visiting from the UK at the time and had been invited to the wedding. My parents had been invited to the wedding too (they live here now as they followed us - I now think this is weird but please be gentle, my boundaries of what's normal are blurred).

The rehearsal night event was for only the wedding party, the day before the rehearsal the groom was let down by his brother and wife and they decided not to go to the rehearsal or make a speech (another story) so two spots came up, the groom said to my husband to invite his parents as they'd traveled from England for the wedding.

My parents discovered this invitation had not been extended to them as well (as they're not involved in the wedding) and this is where things got interesting and opened a HUGE Pandora's Box for me and now I'm trying to process everything.

First my Mum called me at work and explained she was very upset they hadn't been invited (not our party, not our call to make in my opinion), with my Dad in the background shouting that our friends "can stick their F*CKING wedding". Mum tried to calm him down. As usual. I reacted instantly as I always have, called my husband, said "it's so terrible, I should have thought and got them to be invited" I sent parents a text to pretty much beg for forgiveness, tied myself in knots all day to think how badly I felt to the point I had what I think is an anxiety attack or something similar - adrenaline, heart racing, blood rushing to my head - I'm sure you all understand the physical reaction that comes. I just wanted to calm the situation down and make things "normal" again.

Throughout the course of the day we exchanged texts (I was at work so couldn't call) and it ended with a "let's put it behind us and carry on" text from my father. I thought everything was "good" again. Still felt terrible that they hadn't had an invite at this point.

The following morning (day of rehearsal), my father called me breathless with RAGE that "after a long and sleepless night I've decided I'm not going to the wedding". The phone call lasted probably 30 minutes and for the first time in my whole life, I stood up to him. I told him that's his decision, I can't make it for him. I'd apologized that his feelings were hurt. We haven't spoken since.

They didn't come to the wedding. Our friend was so gracious about it. Our extended bunch of friends were shocked as I've presented the image of the perfect family for so long.

I have had the guilt filled emails and texts since then - we were looking forward to seeing the kids, we're sorry we won't be able to make the wedding, pass on our best wishes....

I'm now trying to process this and I'm sorry it's probably a big jumble but it feels cathartic to get it out.

I'm still having waves of guilt. But, my whole childhood I was terrified of this man and his rages, would walk on eggshells and clearly, I've done that into adulthood too. He never hit me but what I am starting to see is that he raged at me, would actually growl at me to keep me in submission,, some of the things he said make me so sad, he then would love bomb me and all the while my Mum never stood up to him - still hasn't. I am still terrified of upsetting him. I have minimized and suppressed so many memories. I have no boundaries - they do so much for us, like our grocery shopping but I've never asked them to. I've also tried to take it back myself but felt guilty - I mean WTAF is THAT all about? Feeling guilty about wanting to do my OWN SHOPPING?!

I'm not even sure what I'm hoping for here - validation that I'm not the ungrateful, spoilt brat they always worked so hard for and sacrificed so much for?

Is it so bad to want my own life with my own family? Where do I go from here? It's so peaceful without his drama and her enabling behaviour!

The kids love them though. They show up randomly through the week with junk food so then the kids don't eat their dinner and I think it's a control thing. I'm not sure.

What a drama! Sorry for this being so long, thank you if anyone read it. I'm not sure what to do from here on in. I'm all they've got because he always said that's all they need.

Thanks again if you got this far. I know it's long - it's 44 years of nonsense condensed into a rambling first ever post!

Thanks
Thanks again for reading. I'm completely prepared to be told I'm being spoilt but honestly, I don't think so. When they moved here we welcomed them, involved them in EVERYTHING, introduced them to our friends. And the guilt continues....

WOW - that was REALLY LONG! Sorry!

@HockeyMom1974
YAY!
go you, you must keep riding this wave, dont back down, he's on the back foot now, keep him there, turn the tables and get your own back on the verbally abusive bully

The kids love them though. They show up randomly through the week with junk food so then the kids don't eat their dinner and I think it's a control thing. I'm not sure
the kids love them like an addict loves the dealer when he turns up with the 'medicine'
if you have candy it's easy to have power over babies, hence the saying....
yes, they do this to gain power over the children and turn them into tools that can be used to control and manipulate you.

So many times we hear, 'but the kids love them', it's not that hard to make kids love you and they know all too well that keeping them onside gives them power over the parents

No idea how to copy all the links to previous threads or I'd make it. Hopefully @toomuchtooold or @AttilaTheMeerkat will be along to do it soon!

Could I request the month be put in the topic title so it's easy to see which the new one is?

Thanks ladies

Hi Hockey

Welcome

Its not you at fault here, its your abusive parents who are to blame and you unsurprisingly are mired in FOG (fear, obligation and guilt). Not all that surprised either to read that your boundaries are so very low/practically non existent either; this is due to you being conditioned by them and them regarding you as somehow incapable.

Your parents have controlled you your whole life and still do to a large extent. They did follow you to where you now live (deliberately) and they are not above using your children either. You are their scapegoat and as such all your family unit are in turn scapegoated too. Do read the resources at the start of this thread; Toxic Parents is a good starting point and I would also suggest you read "If you had controlling parents" written by Dr Dan Neuharth.

Your mother is indeed very much her H's enabler; she has totally and utterly failed to protect you as her daughter from your dad and she has stayed with this man for her own reasons (she is really as culpable as he here and she is really his secondary abuser). She will never leave him and she gets what she wants out of this relationship.
These people have and continue indeed to act despicably.

It was never your responsibility for them to be invited to this wedding rehearsal night, you had no part at all in this decision making process but your parents still blamed you for not being invited!. They were pissed off purely and simply because the groom invited your DHs parents. Can you see just how ridiculous, not just to say batshit and controlling, their behaviours actually are. I've read many examples of toxic behaviours through the years and your post is typical of how such people act. You acted accordingly based on their conditioning of you; its like they've brainwashed you to accept all this without question. Now the FOG they've mired you in is slowly lifting. Their actions here post this wedding are a further representation, if any more were needed, of what they are like as people -toxic and bad news all round. Abuse like you describe as well thrives on secrecy; bust this wide open now by starting to open up more to a carefully chosen therapist.

Re your comment:-

"The kids love them though. They show up randomly through the week with junk food so then the kids don't eat their dinner and I think it's a control thing. I'm not sure."
Be sure that it is a control thing. Its certainly being done by them to
undermine you further as a parent and they are trying to buy your kids affections. Your parents have no idea of the meaning of the word love. Control like you have been shown here is not love.

I would suggest you now find a therapist and one who is well versed in the ways of controlling and otherwise abusive parents. You need this urgently, certainly asap. You really do now need to find your own inner tiger here and protect yourselves from such toxic people and seeing a therapist could well help you no end. Again such behaviours (and the buying of your groceries particularly if not asked for is controlling and is also them stating that you are not capable of doing that) are mired in power and control and these two want absolute over you. You can start by not accepting any groceries they buy you (I presume they come into your home with these) and them bringing over junk food for your kids as and when they feel like showing up. You do not have to let your parents into your home. You still have a choice here.

Would you have tolerated this from a friend?. Probably not.

I doubt very much that your children love these people so much as fear them. Its not your fault your parents are like this, you did not make them that way. If they are too toxic/batshit/difficult for YOU to deal with, its the same deal for your kids too.

These people were not good parents to you when you were growing up and they will harm your children in not too dissimilar ways as to how you yourself have been harmed. Keep them well away from you all. They will continue to abuse you as and when they feel like it; such people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Thanks Steve! This thread is my sanity some days.

THANK YOU Attila and Ulterego sooooooo very much! I feel like I'm going crazy but you're right, I need to keep going. Keep the momentum and this new found strength. THANK YOU!

I'm looking at my husband with new eyes after being together for so very long, he's never pushed me - he's said before I should stand up to them but I wasn't ready. He's put up with all this nonsense for me!

Now, I am ready.

The groceries - we obviously pay them for them, but it IS a control thing and yes, they bring them into the home. My mother threw it at me during that same fateful conversation (always on speakerphone of course) - after everything we've done for you. Mum is a bit different for me to deal with as she's soooooooooo loving, it feels weird to think of her as an enabler but that's what she's being. She's never ONCE stood up for me and I was just conditioned that living in fear was normal.

I almost got to the point of blow up a couple of years ago, I let it all out to my mum about how i was feeling about him (all mired in guilt of course) and she said it's like you hate him and all he's ever done is love you. I allowed myself to be railroaded into the grocery thing as they were making our lives "easier" - plus he got the points on his card

I'm exactly where I need to be right now and ready to tackle this.

THANK YOU so much for the links. I do feel a bit of a fraud as they never hit me so it feels wrong to call it abuse BUT I know that it's not normal. Definitely not normal.

They are so kind to so many people but he always pulls the martyr card when they aren't the right level of grateful.

He's estranged from all his family. So is my mum.

Urgh, so much to work through - I'm going to look into therapists and see who will be a good fit for me.

This is not normal.

THANK YOU so very much for reading and taking the time out of your day to respond with such sound advice. I hope in time to be able to help others in the same way. THANK YOU!!!!

@HockeyMom1974.
All the feelings you describe, the guilt, the anxiety, the adrenaline, that horrible unlike anything else churning in the pit of your stomach, are so familiar. I blamed myself for being too sensitive.
And the replaying of historic situations from a fresh perspective is an eye-opener.
It's taken me probably a full 2 years of analysing the situation to let go of the guilt.
I'm still sporadically angry but hopefully that will go too .