"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

My brain is in overdrive now thinking about situations from my past that now look so different. I’ve always made excuses for them behaving the way they do, but now it seems so much clearer. I’m also thinking about the process of going NC and feeling quite sick.
Last year I had a big birthday and they asked me to not put anything on Facebook about what I was doing because they’d lied to a friend of theirs and said they were going to be with me, to avoid a social event they didn’t want to go to. I’m not really a big user of it anyway, but I got lots of the usual greetings from loads of people which I kind of just did a non-communal generic response to. So stupid and petty, but I just felt like a sap for going along with it.
Then my brain is saying ‘for gods sake how pathetic, it only a stupid birthday, and Facebook is ridiculous, just forget about it.

Your right @AttilaTheMeerkat in everything you say. It is hard to read but true. Do you think there any way I can protect my child from that side of her without going NC?

bunny it’s horrible looking over the edge isn’t it, you know things aren’t right but it’s really hard to think about the future. Have you ever tried to put yourself first, or challenge her?

BunnyFlozza I'm going through a not dissimilar thing with my mother at the moment. Everything has to be on her terms. She has backed down, for now.

I will say that my mother has a long history of depression but honestly I think the attentions of CPNs etc are oxygen for her narcissism.

My brain is in overdrive now thinking about situations from my past that now look so different.

It's a shock to the system, Herocomplex, when you go over the past and realise it wasn't really what you thought at the time. In fact, it's really quite painful. However, once the blinkers are off, they never go back on again. Try to see this as a useful thing - however much it hurts - because once you are able to see clearly, you are in a better position to put coping strategies in place to protect your own mental and emotional health and that of your child's.

It took me a long, long time to see that my mother has all the emotional intelligence of a toddler. All smiles when she gets what she wants but as soon as she is thwarted in even the tiniest way, shocking tantrums and screams of rage and nastiness and vile vindictive behaviour. My father went around after her, mopping up the emotional carnage she caused and trying to smooth things over while we, as children, learned from a very early age to walk on eggshells and placate, placate, placate. It's exhausting. And not normal.

Herocomplex I meant to say in my previous post (but couldn't remember who to address it to!) that yes, I will often wake up at 4am and remember that time when I was 11 and such and such happened, in excruciating detail. I try and think of it as a purge (I was never allowed to have emotions while growing up).

Thank you singinglily
Did anyone outside the immediate family ever do or say anything? I’m now more conscious of all the people who think my mother is a bit quirky, or have suggested my childhood wasn’t normal. But I guess I was too afraid of the idea that I just moved on from it.

Ah dale yes! I sometimes actively have a sharp intake of breath when an awful memory snaps into my mind. I’ve got better at mindfully pushing unwelcome thoughts to one side when I feel particularly assaulted by them. I d like to think they’re being purged, but actually mind just seem like reminders of my failings.

The not being allowed emotions is really hard. A brisk ‘don’t be so stupid’ doesn’t really help if you’re feeling sad, lonely or frightened. And ‘i’ll give you something to cry for’ if you are tearful?

Thank you Attila. So true! Sorry for the late reply I had to let it all sink in.
And I also contacted DM's and got badly hurt in the process:
Basically DS who is a toddler was actually asking about his granddad. He asked me to show pictures I have on my phone. I then had the not so great idea to ask my mum if she could send a video of my DF. She shot a video for my DS where my DF frowns and turns away from the camera (as someone who holds a grudge and doesn't want to be bothered)
I can't believe it. I mentioned that their grandson is missing them. I actually sent a video of my son askIng about his granddad with big, innocent eyes and a bit shy. He is so sweet.
It feels like a slap in the face that my DM sends back this cold, angry video with DF turning his back to the camera.
DS is innocent and loving. They clearly have no heart. Both.
I m tired of begging for love
Also this post from a previous posters hit home:
"I remember being pregnant and wanting a boy, just because I have no idea what a healthy mother/daughter relationship looks like".
Same for me. Also my DF brainwashed me as he instilled in me this idea that girls are inferior. I still unconsciously believe it

Sigh ;-(

I am too weak to stay NC but every time I exchange a text with my mum I feel more hurt than before

Thanks everyone, very helpful to be here x

I have challenged her in the past @Herocomplex however have ended up getting the silent treatment or guilt trips so ended up giving in and apologising for things that weren't my fault. I hate hate hate arguing.
Your comment about not being allowed emotions has just reminded me of when my grandmother died and my mother told me she was 'sadder' than I was because she had known her longer.

@dalecooperscoffeecup I'm sorry you are going through this at the moment. Well done for standing your ground! Did you do anything differently for her to back down can I ask?

@AttilaTheMeerkat you articulate narcissism within families so well which is really helpful, thank you. It's almost like you are writing it about my husbands family of which he is most certainly the scapegoat as well as being the most abused. I'm sure many others will feel the same!!

I had posted previously under a NC just before I had my baby a few months ago & think you among others had offered words of wisdom then too.

My DH has managed to set up firm boundaries with both FIL & MIL. He has had very little contact with our DS but sadly for my DH so has MIL who appears to be putting FIL's needs before building a relationship with our DS. Early on he attempted to thwart visits from her by taking the car away from her, making it difficult for her to travel to us on her own. It's been hard for my DH as i know he feels like like it is further rejection but I know he knows the strict boundaries to protect DS are for the best.

Glad I have found this thread & sending lots of love to all the strong & brave posters xx

We moved a great deal when I was a child, Herocomplex, so we never had extended family nearby who might notice. Dad would try to make some new friends wherever we moved to but M doesn't do friendships so she would mutter little barbs under her breath and be awkward till the new friendships withered, and then we would move again, all to satisfy M. The effect on my schooling and that of my siblings - and indeed any friendships we might have managed to make for ourselves - was simply not a consideration. We weren't encouraged to bring friends home anyway. Indeed, we never had a single birthday party between us as children.

Looking back, managing M's moods and placating her was the sole purpose of the family and we were constantly told "not to discuss family matters with outsiders". It was like a mantra. Years later, when both my sisters and I were married, M would still demand that we not discuss "family matters" with our husbands because they "are not family"! Her royal command had no power by then of course, because there are no secrets in our respective marriages.

DH always thought M was "odd" and Dad weak. BiL1 has long thought that "your Dad makes the bullets and your mother fires them", and BiL2's thoughts are unprintable. My brother's thoughts are unknown because he has never said anything but he cut and run from the family home as a teenager and stayed out of contact for about 15 years.

As M is fond of saying, she has the perfect family.

BunnyFlozza I think the biggest change has been in me. I don't care if they feel hurt or disappointed or whatever (the emotional blackmail at play) because it's bullshit. I also have my son to think about - someone (sorry I forget) posted a heartbreaking story about their DS above. While mine is little enough not to notice I am keeping my distance. (Not a criticism of a previous poster by the way).

Herocomplex You haven't failed. I can't imagine not wanting my son to feel loved and comforted. What kind of arsehole would do that? Oh wait, we know...

Ahh thank you NewYork for your kind words.

It has taken me many years of stumbling about to reach this point and arrive at these conclusions. I remain grateful to pages who actually started this long running thread in the first instance along with Smithfield.

My MIL is certainly a narcissist and her late husband certainly was. He was more obvious in that he treated everyone the same i.e. with no interest whatsoever although he did "good works" within "the community" and could talk the hind legs off a donkey about his own self and the importance of "family" (hypocrite to boot). I also know of people who went out of their way to avoid him.

It is really not possible to have a relationship with such people and tellingly too there were no "friends" at FILs funeral service; just acquaintances. His service was also perfunctory and with no real sense of loss let alone any outpouring of grief (unlike all the other funeral services I have since attended).

I never had a relationship of any sort with my FIL and I can honestly say for my own self that I do not miss him. I do not have a sense of a relationship with my MIL and do not see her other than an occasional visit to her house or to our house. Does my H notice this lack of relationship between she and I; no of course not!!!. The absolute giveaway though to such people is their lack of empathy; I cannot emphasise enough that these types have NONE. His dad certainly did not and nor does MIL.

I have also worked with narcissist (I now recognise this although I did not initially, it was as if a light bulb had been switched on) and it was a sad day indeed when that person joined the office environment. She was, and in all likelihood still is, a wolf in sheep's clothing. It completely changed the office and we fellow junior colleagues were all on the receiving end of her verbal barbs and what I now recognise as one facet of emotional abuse - silent treatment. She was a suck up though to the senior staff who lapped it up because they were suck ups too. Again she was fearful of anyone in authority. It was an oh so happy day when she left and I sang, "oh happy day" to myself on the way home!.

I have learnt a hell of a lot from this long running thread and others like the halcyon NPD page over the years and the fact I am not alone with such relatives is very sad to me. I feel cheated too.

Not many people know what my MIL is truly like but I do and what I have seen from her over the years is indeed frightening to behold. I have caught her out a couple of times and have seen her caught in the headlights expression along with pent up anger and rage (oh she can do narc rage!); she did not like that at all because she has an image to convey.

My DH, bless his heart, sees only the good in his mother and to some extent wants her approval by phoning her once a week almost every week (she rarely phones here). I do not blame him entirely though because if you have grown up within such a family this is your "norm" and you have no other frame of reference. Its only now that he is a parent and has his own family that things have slowly changed. Some scales have fallen from his eyes over the years, particularly with regards to his late father, but his mother is still above reproach. He is still somewhat in the obligation state of FOG. A couple of people have had their own suspicions re my MIL and have infact reached the same conclusions I have.

Oh my goodness @SingingLily we moved a lot too, I didn’t even think that might be part of it. And yes, she had something to say about everyone who came into our lives. At least when you and your siblings got partners you got outside perspective which must have been a bit comforting? I’m so sorry about your brother, that must have been horrible.
We moved to a really isolated place when I was in my mid teens which was awful, I didn’t have a life when we lived there.
I don’t want to feel sorry for myself, what happened happened. It’s really screwed up though. The main thing is it’s certainly not my fault and I’m not responsible for their feelings any more.

Singing Lily

Your comment re your family with particular reference to discussing family matters with outsiders (in my case anyone other than MILs own adult children) has been my experience too with the same sort of instructions made:-

"Looking back, managing M's moods and placating her was the sole purpose of the family and we were constantly told "not to discuss family matters with outsiders". It was like a mantra. Years later, when both my sisters and I were married, M would still demand that we not discuss "family matters" with our husbands because they "are not family"

"Secretive" is my MILs middle name. But as I not so long ago told my husband, secrets have a nasty habit of coming out!. I am also 110% sure that my MIL thinks she has the perfect family too.

I was thinking about all of the weird rules we had to live by, all the things we did ‘wrong’. I remember wishing there was a book I could read that would tell me what I should be doing. It was a constant fear of that sharp word or nasty remark for something I wouldn’t think twice about if my kids did it. Even now if someone says something nice to me I think they don’t really mean it or it brings a big rush of emotion (which I hate).

secrets have a nasty habit of coming out

They do indeed, Attila. I'd go further. I think family secrets are corrosive.

M plays what my DSis describes as "information arbitrage". She will whisper a little snippet of family news "in total confidence" to whichever of her children are currently in favour while she withholds the same family news from those who have transgressed against The Rules and therefore must punished by exclusion from the golden circle. It's power, it's control, it's divide-and-conquer. No wonder we have such fractured sibling relationships. Every now and again, as sisters, we make periodic attempts to form some sort of tolerable relationship with each other and every time our efforts are scuppered by M.

Herocomplex, I know exactly what you mean. I liken it to tiptoeing through a minefield with a blindfold on trying desperately to work out The Rules. The trouble is, if we ever did pin down The Rules, our narc parents would change them again. It's an exercise in futility. My only advice is be yourself, protect yourself, and above all, protect your children.

My M constantly tells me how jealous my DSis is of me, which I deal with by not telling them too much about what we’re up to, or minimising any achievements.
You can help your kids deal with jealousy, it’s not something that just occurs for no reason, and why tell the person who they’re supposedly jealous of? As you all say - divide and rule.

Singing and Hero Yes! I was thinking about this the other day. We moved in my mid teens to a very remote village. I had to change schools. My old friends were miles away and any new friends were too far away to casually drop in (I had to go to the good school, not the nearest school). While other moves could legitimately explained by DF's work, this particular move never made sense. In hindsight, I think it was to isolate us and control us further.

God dale it was so lonely for me, was it for you? Every time I tell someone about that move they’re just so puzzled, who moves their teenagers to the middle of nowhere? The consequence of that was when I went to poly I didn’t really know what I was doing socially and made a complete hash of it.

Sorry if this is wrong and I don't mean to upset anyone or the thread. Happy to ask for it to be deleted.

bunny I noticed you writing about your DF doing anything to avoid upsetting your M. And the negative consequences of that - for you, for him, even for your M.

And then I noticed you saying you asked your DH not to say anything to your M "because you didn't want to aggravate things" or words to that effect. I hope it's ok to flag up, that you might be adopting some of your Dad's style? Just offering that as an idea

I wish you all the best

Hero so lonely, and such a difficult time to move because everyone had already forged their friendship groups and it wasn't easy to be accepted. I also feel like I made a hash of uni, I didn't know how to do friendship and probably came across as... I dread to think. I often wish I could go back in time and explain.

Dale and Hero, mid-teens would be about the time when you were starting to form your own identity, gaining confidence and questioning what you knew. Not allowed. I was taken out of school against my will and sent out to work without any formal qualifications. My brother rejected the "golden" future mapped out for him and ran away. Middle sister married young in order to escape. My DSis, the only one with whom I have a bond (she is 17 years younger than me and I parented her) went off to university and never went back. Like I said, the perfect family.