"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello

Long time lurker and first time poster here too...

I’m just looking for validation I guess that I’m not imagining things and my DM is a complete narcissist or at least confirmation that I’m not a completely terrible person.

Like PP I have seen the light having recently had my own DD who is now 11mo and not only have come to realise how bad my DM was to me but also how much I want to protect myself and my DD from her from now on.

I’m the middle child of 3. The only daughter and one half of a set of twins. My DM repeatedly told us as children that she only ever wanted 2 DC but ended up with 3. Guess I was the extra one she didn’t want and have always been the “black sheep”. Twin brother (TB) is v much the golden child.

I’m just going to bullet point some of the crap she’s pulled otherwise we’ll be here all day....

⁃	telling me (and only me) that the only thing stopping her committing suicide when my dad left was that she didn’t want him to get the house
⁃	Putting us in private school but refusing to buy the proper uniform etc so we always got bullied or got in trouble for having the wrong stuff. 
⁃	Sending me on school trips without any money so I would have to sit out of activities or share food with friends
⁃	Call all my friends from private school snobs
⁃	Constantly belittling me in front of other people for things that were technically her fault eg never letting me wash my own hair as a young child and then laughing at me in front of family friends because I couldn’t do it and their younger daughter could. 
⁃	Forcing me to go to piano lessons and making me practice 30mins a day and didn’t believe me if I said I’d practiced - I used to record it on a tape recorder as proof. 
⁃	Telling me she hated me regularly. 
⁃	Deliberately letting me forget it was Father’s Day and then reminding me when it was too late to get anything for my dad (this was before he’d left). 
⁃	When I was was pregnant she was only interested in how much weight I’d put on. 
⁃	When DD was born and in ICU for a week she moaned that we were only allowed one visitor at a time so she and TB couldn’t get in for photos together. 
⁃	When we got DD home and had family over the only photos she took were of TB and my DD. She did take one of me but said it “wasn’t flattering” - 7 days post emergency CS at this point guys. 
⁃	She still refuses to talk to or about my dad 20years since he left as apparently she was the only one affected by them splitting up. We all live in the same city btw. 
⁃	When I told her DH and I wanted to get married abroad and asked her if she wanted to come she said no as she didn’t have any desire to go to that particular location. I said OK. But when she found out my DF was going she immediately changed her mind and came too and acted like an awkward toddler the entire time. 
⁃	Ignored me and DD (her only grandchild) for 6wks recently because  she’d asked if she could pop over for 5 mins en route to somewhere and was mad I hadn’t told her to come earlier and stay for longer than 5 mins. WTF. 
⁃	When DH and I bought our new house in a desirable leafy suburb, great for raising kids etc she has never said anything nice and just complains that it’s so far out (less than 30mins drive from city centre) but TB is getting rave reviews for the grotty bachelor pad he’s just started renting in the city centre. 
⁃	Turned up to my graduation ceremony in her graduation gown
⁃	Whenever she spends time with my and DD all she does is go on about how easy I have it cos I don’t have twins and how much of a nightmare baby I was (apparently I had the cheek to get gastroenteritis once)
⁃	I could go on but......

What has brought me here today is that last weekend my DH and I were going away for the first time and leaving DD at our house in the care of my MIL who is fab. I did mention this to my DM but she never said anything. My DM had also recently had flu and had been advised by her Dr to stay away from my DD for a couple of weeks just in case so shouldn’t have been seeing her anyway. So on Sunday morning while we are away and my MIL is in en suite showering with DD playing in the bedroom attached my crazy ass DM lets herself into my house (which she wouldn’t do if I was there) and goes up to the bedroom and opens the door and is like “hi!” My MIL is shocked but kindly asks her to stay for a cup of tea or whatever but my DM kept insisting that MIL goes away and “takes a break” and that my DM will watch DD.

Luckily my MIL knows the score and my history with DM and texts me and asks if it’s ok. I reply immediately saying no. I didn’t ask my DM to look after my DD as I do not trust her 100%. Anyway DM wouldn’t take the hint and just hung about and told my MIL some v bizarre, nasty and totally made up stories about me and then eventually left.

Since I’ve come back my DM has sent me a couple of generic texts but has not mentioned coming over or seeing DD or MIL at all??!

I just hate how she expected to come and look after my daughter without even thinking to ask me? She doesn’t like my MIL (for no reason other than she’s jealous of her and thinks she’s better than everyone else) so it’s not like she was actually concerned that MIL needed a break. She only came over because she was angry that MIL was the one chosen to babysit and not her.

She is only interested in my DD to play the doting grandmother. She shows her off and parades her around and takes photos of her rather than spending proper time with her.

I just feel like she’s unhinged and want to cut all ties for my own sanity and to protect my family. But have no idea how to do it? Or am I over reacting?

Hi @babesinthehood

Your mother would love you to think you're overreacting to this, it's a classic narcissistic technique to ensure you think "oh, it's really not that bad". Make no mistake, your mother is a narcissist and everything you have written about her screams control.

Just like you, my mother is a complete narcissist and waged a campaign against me from, quite literally, birth (you should have been a girl, you made me miss Christmas), whilst lauding my older brother who could do no wrong and was the golden child.

All of the examples you gave announce your pain and they have a common element. They are all about the power and control your mother has exerted over you from an early age, and she is now attempting to bring your daughter into the mix. There is no doubt in my mind that she will use your very precious daughter as a weapon against you if you allow her access, and I strongly suggest you don't. The other aspect is your mother putting you done, or a pure case (your graduation as an example) of plain oneupsmanship.

You'll also find if you question anything, either from your childhood or even a few days ago, you will be told your memory is flawed or that you are plain wrong. A narcissist will never admit they have made a mistake.

She is only interested in my DD to play the doting grandmother. She shows her off and parades her around and takes photos of her rather than spending proper time with her.
*
I just feel like she’s unhinged and want to cut all ties for my own sanity and to protect my family. But have no idea how to do it? Or am I over reacting?*

Of course she is, your DD is something to show off, and use as a toy. You'll find if you examine your childhood that she was very quick, publicly, to take any credit that could be gleaned from what you did, and she will now transfer this to your DD. Yet she will never credit you with anything you do during her development.

What should you do? Go as low contact as you possibly can, I'd even recommend no contact as this woman exists to drive her campaign against you at any opportunity, will never change, and will use your daughter against you.

As said so many times on these threads - you'll find the books "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward and "Childhood Disrupted" by Donna Jackson Nazakawa most illuminating. I personally prefer the latter due to its case studies.

Best wishes

Babesinthehood, you are not over-reacting, not imagining things, and you are not a terrible person. In fact, quite the opposite, as you are clearly a good and loving mother to your own child despite never having had the benefit of that yourself when you were a child. That's the first important thing to say.

Practically everything you describe resonates with me. Your twin brother is clearly golden child and you, unfortunately, are the scapegoat. Even your mother telling you she only wanted two children resonates; my lovely DSis once asked if she was adopted (it was the only explanation she could think of). My weak enabling father told her to try and understand, that his poor put-upon brave martyr of a wife had only ever wanted three children. DSis was - as you've probably guessed - Child No. 4 and she was just 14 at the time. Well, it's just the sort of thing any normal loving parent would say to their child, isn't it?

How did your mother get in the house? Please tell me she doesn't have a key.

LTL here too , Babes something you said resonated with me and my own Mum. 'how easy I have it cos I don’t have twins and how much of a nightmare baby I was (apparently I had the cheek to get gastroenteritis once)' Mine is that l dared to put my feet on the table and refused to take them down when l was about 3 , this is 55 years ago. I think your Mum is a narc through and through, l am trying to go NC with my narc sister and her evil Husband and l am getting there but it takes a hell of a lot to do it . The truth is you will be vilified , disinherited and scorn poured on you from a great height. You may even get guilt trips, emotional abuse and she may get your siblings to try and get you back in your family Scapegoat box. Stick with it , it has been 6 months for me and it is still bad my Sister is making my life a misery but l am not giving in . When my Mum dies l will finally be free .I can't drop my Mum she is 87 and 11 weeks ago we lost my Dad , so l am tied and l can't go NC with her but YOU CAN! Good Luck but be prepared for some shit to hit the fan and for you to feel really bad sometimes . Keep coming here and venting .

Richteabiscuit bloody well done love !

Hi, I'm new here.

I think I broke off contact with my mum today (well yesterday as it's past midnight).

I got a letter today, in a response to an email I sent her a week ago describing my experience of my childhood, and how unhappy I was. Her response included something very similar to the stately homes comment that inspired this thread, so it felt right to post here, I hope that's okay.

My dad was emotionally and physically abusive throughout my childhood; it got particularly bad when I was a teenager and started fighting back. My mum enabled this, and helped create this family narrative where nothing I said was believed, or so it felt.

In the last few months I've finally started dealing with the effects of this on me, have started therapy, and I talked to her about the abuse for the first time (I cut off contact with my dad several years ago). At first it seemed like she was ready to listen, but then she sent me this horrible gaslighty message saying nothing I said was true, and insinuating that everything I was saying stemmed from my mental illness.

Last week I wrote to her describing what my childhood was like for me; I was terrified of my dad, and I felt so isolated and alone, and that I was just completely rubbish because that was what I was always being told. I said that unless she at least accept that this was my memory and feels true to me, I didn't feel like we could have a relationship atm.

Her letter today ignored most of what I said, including these terms for having a relationship. She once again point blank denied that anything bad ever happened when I was a kid, going so far as to say my dad never hit me or lost his temper with me until I was a teenager, and that was because I was 'difficult'. She then listed all the wonderful things she thinks they did for me as a kid - along the lines of stately homes.

I'm lucky enough to have a loving and supportive group of friends, who all say I should cut off contact now, and I know they're right and I think that's what I'll do.

But I miss my mum, and I hate the idea of not having her in my life, even though she's done some bad stuff. I just really wanted to say that to some people who understand how that feels.

@SimplySteveRedux if you can go NC with your mother I say do it

I'd love to have nothing to with mine, and the lies, and the bulllshit, the manipulation and the drama, but DD is 8 and lives her grandma, so I have a relationship with her for my girl.

had lunch with her on monday and I just felt nothing for her. my relationship with her is one of obligation and duty

I understand completely, HoneyBadger4, and I'm so sorry to hear of your childhood experience. You must have felt so frightened and so miserable and so alone. Your father was a terrible father to you, and that's bad enough, but your mother let you down completely. It was her responsibility to protect you and care for you and she didn't. In fact, not only did she fail to do the right thing but she denied the truth - to herself, to the world, and most importantly, to you. You deserved so much better.

It was very brave of you to email her but I'm afraid her letter denying everything was entirely predictable. She can't admit to what happened because then she'd have to face up to what she did (or didn't do) and why she failed to protect her own child. So she is doing what she has always done - sacrificing you, your feelings, your very real hurt, in order to make herself feel better. I'm sorry to tell you this, but she's unlikely to change.

All you can do is to change how you respond to that. For me, it's about keeping a clear distance from my emotionally abusive mother and my weak enabling father, and you might want to do the same. It's not easy to begin with, lots of mixed feelings (as you are already finding out), but it gets easier over time and now my life is so much better and calmer and happier without my mother in it.

I'm glad that you've started therapy - this must be quite painful for you but if it's done right, it will help - and particularly glad you have supportive friends. I'm also glad you've found this thread. It's been a lifesaver for me and I hope you draw comfort from it too. 💐

Just wanted to come back and say I’ve begun the process of going NC and it is terrifying how accurate all the predictions of the reactions are. It’s quite reassuring to be able to identify ‘hoovering’ and to see VERY clearly that boundaries are just not even being recognised.
I’ve learned so much over the last month. Thank you, and to all of you struggling and having to find strength on a daily basis - keep going.

Yeah Hero it's amazing when you see it being played out in front of you - they all go for the same moves, which is just as well because some of it is so random you'd never get anyone to believe you if they hadn't experienced it themselves.

That’s the big realisation toomuch. It’s just awful when you feel fine for a bit, then remember what’s happening.

I'm sorry you're finding it hard. Remember you're not actually obliged to listen to it - if you can find ways of making yourself less available, if that helps, do that.

Hi everyone. Just need to offload somewhere because I feel like I hate my mother and it's destroying me. I feel really guilty because she's nowhere near as bad as most of the mothers on this thread, but in a quiet way she's rather poisonous.

• She's a serious control freak. Just for starters, I had to wear my hair and clothes the way she wanted them until I was nearly thirty (or else have her lose it with me about how I "had no pride" and would never get a job - I was actually in post-graduate education that she bullied me into doing and I got a job just fine once I finished the course). She now uses my DD as a weapon to stop me ever moving away from our home village. She's been having a massive meltdown for months about my SIL supposedly being a monster because she only sees her other grandchild approx once a month. Personally, I think my SIL has got her head screwed on right, but that's another story.
• She's a bigot. Not even the standard "moaning occasionally about immigrants" bigotry but really hardcore misogyny and racism pops out from time to time. I've occasionally posted about her views on MN under other names before and the unanimous response has been "your mother is a cunt and we're not terribly sure about you either given that you didn't go NC when she said that thing".
• She's a pathological liar and champion gaslighter. I've sometimes caught her in writing (e.g. in a text) saying one thing and then blowing up at me twenty minutes later and accusing me of humiliating her when I did exactly as she suggested. She mocked me when I said I thought I could learn to drive in the next couple of years, then said 60 seconds later that she didn't understand why I was getting upset when she'd only said that my father learned to drive in his thirties so she was sure I could do it (not what she said at all but if I point that out, she'll accuse me of twisting everything or loving to cause arguments, or tell me I'm just like my father, her mother or whoever the hate figure of the moment is).
• She drips poison about everyone, unless they have a penis. She hasn't got a pleasant word to say about any woman I'm friends with - they're all bad mothers, or their lives are over because they're overweight, or they look old for their age, or they can't possibly have any intelligent conversation because they look like bimbos, or their toddlers are ugly, or whatever...
• She uses the fact that I was depressed in my twenties to control and undermine me (I'd rather she'd say "you've put on a bit of weight" than deal with floods of tears and "I'm so worried about your mental health because you overeat so much!").
• Everything has to revolve around her sense of martyrdom. Everything that happens to her is the last straw and could only possibly have happened to her because she's cursed. But if I try to talk to her about being stressed or worried about anything - and feeling the need to confide in her is like a compulsion even though I know it's the definition of madness to keep doing the same thing expecting a different response - she'll blow up at me, insult my mental health or insinuate that I'm a bad mother.

E.g. today I told her how stressed I am because I need to call out an emergency plumber. It's a really bad time because I've got an absolute load of shit going on at work and at home, in particular the fact that my dad has just been diagnosed with a very serious health condition with a poor outlook in terms of life expectancy * . But she immediately went on the attack and started having a go at me, escalating to attacking me a mother and berating me being ungrateful for ever feeling stress when I have a lovely little girl, implying that I'm not grateful for and/or don't love my daughter because I'm stressed about my toilet leaking. If I push back and point out that it's human to moan and even she does it sometimes, she'll start yelling at me and accuse me of insulting her/ come out with stuff like "my mother would have cut me off if I was as much of a bitch to her as you are to me".

• I know my mother has a lot on her plate at the moment too, but she and my father divorced more than 15 years ago so I secretly resent the fact that she's made his illness about her, not we (grown-up) kids. They get on well these days because he blows smoke up her arse, but she spent years when they were married turning us against him, saying he never wanted us, encouraging us to fantasise about him dying, portraying him as a paranoid control freak when she was actually having the affair he suspected her of having. He was no saint and a bit of a shit dad, but I started to feel sorry for him when he moved out and she began to turn the same tactics on me.

Sorry, that was a bit of an essay. It's funny because, when I write all that down, it sounds quite damning. Yet she spend all my childhood telling me that she was the best mother in the world ("you have no reason to have low self-esteem. I'm an excellent mother") and I can't quite shake that belief. Sometimes I think I should kill myself because my DD would be better off with her than with me. And yet I'm terrified of dying and my parents getting hold of my DD and doing to her what they did to me.

Ps Of course, I mean to say that my father's illness is about HIM and I'm so gutted for him. But after that I'm saddest for his grandkids, and then I guess his kids, but everything has to be about my mum and always has been.

Tiredofit you're in the right place. It's hard to describe that sort of subtle, poison dart type emotional abuse to someone who's never experienced it but I bloody we'll have and so have most of the people on this thread. You're stuck right in the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) and understandably - because you were never given the freedom, as a child, to develop your own voice and opinions - you find it hard to separate out your own feelings and your correct perceptions of your mother as an evil woman from the bullshit that she fed you about being the world's best mum. Make no mistake your DD would NOT be better off with your mother, what your mother did to you is real, you are right, and she is wrong.

You have to stop expecting her to behave well. You think that if you have problems that are bad enough, her sympathy will kick in and she'll start being nice to you. But there is no sympathy in her. She's taught you that you never deserve kindness, so you feel like you have to struggle to deserve it, but the truth is you always deserved kindness but your mother is incapable of giving it and she has no interest in it. When you are down, she sees it as an opportunity to get the knife in further.
Stop telling her about your life. Start talking about the weather, and what was in the telly last night (Google "grey rock" for other ideas), if you want to stay in contact, which I guess you want to for your dad's sake. Have you read any of the books in the OP? I would recommend the Susan Forward one. It's a shit situation to be in, but you're not alone

Hi tiredofitalltoday,

Its not you, its your mother. She trained you from shortly after birth also to put your own self last with her first and foremost.

What toomuchtooold wrote. Its not your fault your mother is this disordered of thinking and you did not make her that way. It sounds like you were raised by a narcissist and her associated enabler, that being your dad. I would not let him off the hook either frankly because he failed utterly to protect you as well from his then wife's excesses of behaviour. Women like your mother cannot do relationships and the men in their lives are often discarded or are as narcissistic as they are.

I would move and not at all let her use your child, your most precious resource here, as a weapon. Consider also appointing two legal guardians to your child in the event of you dying before she reaches 18. Do not allow either your parents here to have guardianship!. Your DD would NOT, repeat NOT, be better off with your mother. Your DD has a mother, you.

You are your own person and are not an extension of your mother and you need boundaries. That may be hard for you to do primarily because your mother never really encouraged you to have any.

You certainly need to put physical distance as well as mental distance now between you and she as well. She will try and damage your child as surely as she has tried to completely destroy you mentally from the inside out. Do read the websites entitled Out of the FOG and Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers as well as the resources at the start of this thread (as toomuchtooold wrote re Toxic Parents).

Consider too finding a BACP registered therapist to engage with and importantly find such a person who has no familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. Interview such people carefully and sound them out at length before using any particular therapist.

I know all too well what you mean about ill health in relation to other people. My narcissist MIL made her late H's terminal illness all about her as well, it was about what she needed and wanted from the hospital i.e to look good in the eyes of others. She wanted earlier visiting times which were granted because she outright lied to the staff. When it came to his funeral it was very much the same, it was what she wanted for him and again she made that all about her too. I mean, how many people actually care about whether the letters on his headstone should be in silver or black?. She certainly was concerned about the catering for the funeral guests but only in terms of cost and she had no idea of what people expect catering wise at funerals.

how many people actually care about whether the letters on his headstone should be in silver or black

Aargh once again I have to question whether we are all related to the same woman. If the headstone font colour preference was one that developed within a single day but she then claimed she had held that opinion forever and regarded those who disagree as morally suspect then we are actually sisters in law.

toomuchtooold

You mean to tell me that there's yet another walking around version of my godawful MIL out there, argh!!!!. One of them is bad enough!!.
You have my sympathy and empathy.

Unfortunately we are not related (I have no SILs). MIL "agonised" over the colour and actual wording over a number of weeks simply because of the overall cost and what would match better against the colour of his headstone. All manner of people were dragged into this discussion.

And how many times has she visited his gravesite since he passed some years back - one.

No, sadly, it seems likely there are in fact a whole host of them. My mother did this with my dad's headstone. And then once she'd decided, spent months badmouthing the choices other people had made. "Ah there's wee Annie's stone been put up. I don't think I would have picked that colour of stone, I just think the black granite looks that bit more... classy." Really, mum? Really?

So glad I have found this thread too. As it makes me feel less lonely. RL friends seem to have a wonderful mother/daughter relationship and I just don't. It makes me envious at times when they're in difficult circumstances and can turn to their mum when I just can't. I think I often grieve for the mother I never had.

Just recently done her a favour and took her cat to the vets. I'd had a bit of a tough day and rushed over to hers straight from work. She gets in the car with the cat carrier complains about a neighbour who was in doing something in the garden. I ignore this and let her rant. We drive passed a Catholic Church she does this dramatic signing of the holy cross and waves her hands at the roof of my car and says in a silly childish voice "hello nan, hello mummy, oh they would be so proud of me". Again I ignore, as traffic was heavy and I was concentrating on driving. Going on about how we have to do this signing of the holy cross and how she does this on the bus and people look at her funny so she has to pretend she is playing with her fringe she never actually goes to church has not done for over 40 yrs.

Fine at the vets. Then moans straight away when back in the car how much it's cost, bills etc (she has money put away). I say it comes with having a pet and glad the cat is ok and nothing serious (was my cat previously but didn't get on with the other cats so she wanted him for company) she always says how she is going to get rid of him as she knows this hurts me as I wouldn't be able to see him anymore and I can't do anything about it. Yet fusses over the cat other times and always rushes back for him when we're out anywhere.

I'm nearly at her house when she says 'I've got to get out of this hell hole' she lives in a lovely rented 2 bed house in a sought after area. I say be grateful for what you've got and try and look at things more positively. She just turns on me and says ' how can you say that when I have had my own properties and I have to rent for the rest of my life'. She has been renting for the past 23 yrs when my DF divorced her. She had never moved on from him even though he was emotionally abusive, violent towards me and DSis and sexualised towards just me. I say 'what do you think me and DH are going to do?' ( to cut a long story short, DH was dismissed from his job 18 months ago after 25yrs of service form a big company for something he didn't know was wrong, he was stitched up by a so called 'friend' and they were also looking to make cuts, she knows how this impacted DH as he was suicidal at one point after it happened as his job was all he knew) she said very nastily 'oh he had told me about his pension and how you are going to buy outright' I looked at her in disbelief and said 'yeah could have but not now' she laughed at this and said 'silly silly boy, what did he do again?' I said 'why are saying that when it wasn't his fault, I've explained to you over and over and only last week what it was, do you think we want to be in this situation?' ( DH is trying to build his own business now as he has re-trained in a trade he did 30yrs ago at the the age of 48) she shouted at me 'well he shouldn't of worked with such a bunch of fucking bastards' spit was coming out her mouth and at this point I was crying. I said through my tears 'how could he of known and unfortunately he did' she shouted at me again saying 'he shouldn't of got himself stitched up, should he' with so much venom like it was his fault. I told her to take the cat and get out of my car as I was so upset that she could bring this up yet again and the way she was speaking. And as she did she shouted 'don't be so pathetic' and slammed my car door. I drove off and cried all the way home. We've never had any support of her through these hard times and to be honest not in my childhood as she sort of stood back and did nothing whilst my DF would hit and smack me and DSis.

DH was fuming when I got in as she would never say anything like that to him. She sweet and kind when she is with him.

I know she is annoyed as she lent DH some money for a car 4K (which they both did behind my back, but DM offered) and I've always said it's nothing to do with me. DH was paying her £300 a month. But of course that has had to stop as we are struggling so much financially now as only me working, DH may get a few jobs here and there but it is all going to take time. But she agreed this with DH and said to him when you get back on on your feet and don't worry, she would never dare ask for money but when she is with me it's all she goes on about with so much hatred like he is has done this on purpose.

I've not spoken to her since and my DSis and I were supposed to take her out today for her 70th bday surprise. I had to text her and say she had really upset and I'm pulling out of today. She text back saying how she only mentioned renting and that I completely lost it! She has completely turned it around on me. This was a few days ago now and then she had the cheek to tell my DSis that I needed to apologise to her. I got a text from her saying ' we need to talk and we to sort out what's happening about today' I honestly think she only wants to sort things out so she can still get her surprise bday outing. I have just ignored and for once I'm going to make a stand.

It's not the first time things like this have happened and she has always tried make out I was overreacting or had played it down.

She does display childish behaviour and has been know to slap her thighs and clap her hands in irate manner if something's not her way or me or my DSis has said something she disagrees with. She has even done this in a middle of a shopping centre and made a scene.

Lots of things have happened in the past where I think what is wrong with her. She even tells me nearly every time I see her 'go and find your DF' she knows what went on although he was never really sexually physical with me ( he did cup my boob once when I was pretending to be asleep as I didn't want to get up for school) he said some weird stuff like how he wanted to kiss me like a bf and he fancied me. I was 12-14 at the time when he used to do this and say this stuff. It makes me feel sick, why would I want to track him down after 23 yrs but she totally disregards this.

She is jealous of mine and DSis relationship and always asks to tag along and if she finds out we've met up without her she doesn't like it and gets upset. DSis lives an hour away and has three young children. DM doesn't drive but does think other means to get her own way to see my DSis or her grandchildren. Dsis does drive to see her and she can be like that with her too but not as nasty. In fact DM has just spent a week abroad with them all paid for by my DSis and BIL and moaned about a lot of things which sounded ungrateful. So I think there were a few little arguments then.

To be honest she puts me in a bad mood when she is with me , so I don't always take her with me when I drive to DSis. But then I do feel guilty as now she is retired she doesn't see anyone. She has no friends (never has done) so I've all she's got close by. I will talk to her but not now, all I want is for her to realise she was in the wrong and apologise but she had never once said sorry in all my life so I guess I could be waiting a while.

Sorry this has been so long just wanted to off load.

Gah, bloody hell. A voicemail this morning (thought I’d blocked everything!) telling me in a distraught voice how mean I am for not sending a Father’s Day card.
Clearly ridiculous, after the things that have been said, to send a hypocritical bloody nonsense card. Objectively I know she’s wrong - I am not mean, and she’s hoovering, and further example of how she can only think of her hurt. Not the feelings I had about all the hoopla yesterday. If she was clever she would have said ‘it’s really painful for all of us, but I understand why you’re not feeling like acknowledging it this year.’
But no - straight out of the NPD handbook.

Coffeecupempty, it really does help to offload. I'm glad you found this thread. Your father's behaviour towards you was appalling and it must have been horrifying for you. One thing you said about your mother stood out, as well:

She does display childish behaviour and has been know to slap her thighs and clap her hands in irate manner if something's not her way or me or my DSis has said something she disagrees with. She has even done this in a middle of a shopping centre and made a scene.

My mother gets red spots in her cheeks and she begins slapping the arm of her chair with increasing frequency while her voice goes very low and deep and strange. It's like watching a scene out of The Exorcist. AttilatheMeerkat identified it straight away as narcissistic rage and that's exactly what your mother is indulging in. And yes, there was one memorable occasion here too when both my mother and my father had a simultaneous meltdown in the middle of a shopping centre and made a scene. It was like having two elderly toddlers on my hands. Other shoppers gave me hugely sympathetic looks, obviously believing I was struggling with two parents who both had dementia. It's oddly funny now, but at the time it was mortifying.

You have my sympathy.

Glad you recognise it for what it is, Herocomplex. You just manage to get through the day largely by ignoring it and then just as you start to breathe out, they find a way to pitch you a drama-and-emotional-blackmail curveball despite your best efforts.

I dread picking up the post from the porch after my father's nasty little attempt of six weeks ago (didn't read it, no need, the way the envelope was addressed screamed hostility so DH at my request put it straight in the shredder). It sounds so stupid to be so unnerved by envelopes lying on the doormat in your own home but that's how it is. DH now makes a point of picking up the post first and scanning the envelopes before handing any to me.