To make an ultimatum with DC?

[bumblebee39]

No IPad no snacks nothing else 'positive' until she tidies her bedroom (been asking her to do this for 3 days now to no avail)

And WIBU to start confiscating the things she is not looking after like jewellery and hair things etc. Felt tip pens she won't put the lids back on etc. Until she learns to look after them?

She is 5 but has been tidying her own room since two (assisted at 2yrs and 3yrs, unassisted since)

OP, did you ever have difficulties sleeping when you were upset or depressed? For instance, when you were being emotionally abused? Would you call that a resistant behaviour on your part? Would you like somebody else to call it that?

I may seem like nit-picking but I think how you think of your little girl's behaviour might be quite important for the next few months. You need her to be easier than is normal for children her age because of what you have been through, but at the same time, she has also been through rather a lot (witnessing emotional abuse, losing her home) and she is struggling. Being afraid to go to sleep is not resistant behaviour: it is a sign that she is upset.

Did you read my earlier post about my experiences with my own dd? It was a difficult time, but some things really helped (and other things really didn't). I know it's hard- and particularly when you've already been through a horrendous time, but if you can help her, this will also make things easier for you.

OP do you have another thread at the moment about her behaviour and that you are struggling? Please try to remain calm & understand that she is acting out due to not understanding the recent changes.

Regard her with cuddles, make things a game, praise good behaviour, love bomb her & accept that at 5 she's too young for blame.

I did yes @corythatwas

I have asked her to give me a chill out for half hour and go play in her room so her brother can go to sleep.

Room is still a mess. Oh well there's always tomorrow... Going to try and get her up early as a pre run for school on Monday which hopefully will mean she's tired for a more reasonable bed time. Am also going to try and do some fun activities and get her to do some of her colouring book...

I have got the precious things out and the stuff that isn't hers... & I have tried to leave the housework alone and spend some time with both my kids as well as getting some breaks to try and stay calm and collected myself and not panic about the housework or her behaviour etc....

Not our best day but not our worst either. I let her make some choices like "triangles or squares" in her sandwiches etc. Milk or juice or water that kind of thing. Anyway, I think tomorrow is another day...

Thanks all for advice etc. I think this is just all so overwhelming and difficult right now and I don't know how to stay positive/calm/empathetic I switch into "do what I say or xy or z will be gone" so quickly. My patience is just very thin after a very trying half term but it's nearly over... This too shall pass...

I haven't had to help her for 2 years now. And I mean, every lid back on every felt tip, everything back in the right box, puzzle pieces

I made the comment due to this as this is a lot for a five year old..

I have read through all of your comment and can see though that you have commented that you do help her so apologise ...

You will probably hate me for this but you can seems that you have calmed down and rationalised a lot after making some of your initial comments

Your little girl has been through a lot and whilst you say she has not witnessed violence she has still felt the effects of this.
She is only five and has only been on this earth for five years please remember thAt.

She is going to be the oldest sibling to three
But still needs to be a child and if her behaviour is changing then she's probably acting out in regards
To her feeling. All children's behaviours are communications please try and lister to her.

In saying that you also need to look after yourself and you seem remorseful of your initial comments and can probably see you planned to come a bit heavy on her.
She may only be five but the next time something arrises with her could you try and say right ... mammy is going to have a think about this mammy will come
Back and I ask that you please wait (do whatever she is doing or go to her room to read a book ) and buy your self some time to have a cup
Of coffee and time to calm down and think .. you
Must reassure her that you will
Come
Back though and do this when you feel you have calmed down x

Be kind to yourself you've been through a
Lot and you're pregnant no one gives us a
Manual to be a parent but we also need to reflect (as you clearly have) and see where and why and how a situation arose and how we possibly let could have dealt with it better next time.

I think you have received some excellent advice on this thread. But I will just add my voice to the chorus suggesting you get rid of punishments entirely. Your DD must be experiencing so much pain, loss, confusion, and fear. She may very well be blaming herself for the fact that her dad is no longer around. Children are naturally egocentric and thinking they are to blame for their parents' separation is extremely common. Add in the fact that she has witnessed abuse and the patterns of an unhealthy relationship, and she is very likely to be in a tremendous amount of emotional turmoil. These big emotions have to come out some way, in her case by destroying things and refusing to go to bed.

I would work very hard to help her feel more secure. Forget about reward charts and confiscating ipads for now. Spend one-on-one time with her as much as you can. No need to achieve anything or accomplish any goal other than building your relationship. She needs to know deep down that you will always be there for her, even though her dad is gone.

The calming down moment that iwill describes worked well for me (the amount of coffee I drank in those days! and the kettles I boiled even when I couldn't face another one! also the number of times I turned on music to stop myself from losing it!)

It will pass and you will get through and you will feel glad that you were able to help your dd through it! Sounds like today was a good day and you put in some good work. The room will still be there tomorrow.

That's why I'm glad I wrote this post. Honestly it's made me realise that the methods my ex used to use were punitive and unfair and that her good behaviour was a reaction to an abusive situation...

I think I have realised the real issues are a lot deeper than the mess. I mean, it's frustrating and I'm upset about the damaged things, but actually it's that she is damaged that is really upsetting and unsettling.

That she feels like she doesn't want to look after and even actively breaks her things... I think this is part of PTSD. I have read about it in adults and think that she is displaying some of the symptoms.

Nightmares, disrupted sleep, violent outbursts, anger, lack of self care/ care for ones environment, fear, anxiety, acting out previous traumatic experiences, etc. Etc.

I don't think she is depressed I think she is distressed. And so am I. But I get caught out by little things, like broken stuff and ripped certificates, and the rest of the time I seem to be able to deal with it, when actually neither of us is coping well with so much change, and all the stuff we've been through in the past.

I want to get a big magic rubber out and erase him from our lives but I can't. He is still continuing the abuse even in his absence. We are still suffering from the aftershock and fallout.

I want to be all peace and love but I'm not I'm scared and hurting and angry and sad and all kinds of emotions all in a messy ball of trauma. And so is she. And she, as everyone has pointed out, is 5.

I need to accept that she has been damaged by this even more than I have. & I need to be the grown up. Even when I am struggling I need to be the calm so that she can be the storm. I need to be the shelter to her hurricane. I need to be the sandbags to her flood.

Do you think her refusal to go to bed might be fear you might disappear like her dad did? It is similar to a bereavement and that is classic behaviour. I know it's not what you want right now, but maybe this little girl just needs some cuddles and extra space while she adjusts to her new normality. Which itself is only temporary before baby arrives and everything changes again. I kind of think that you might need some cuddles and TLC too OP - you both have a lot going on and your desire to keep things "normal" and tidy might be how you are trying to cope. I think normal could maybe have a little holiday while you recover.
Much love

Oh bless her, for years OP I worked with women and children from abusive relationships her behaviour is completely usual. There is lots of good support out there for her to process everything so I'm glad she's been referred. She's refusing to sleep and clinging to you because daddy has gone (she won't fully understand he was abusive as that's all she's known), she's also lost the home she knew and gone to proper school, she's lost pretty much everything she knew and now only has you. She must be terrified and lost and the only way she can express her hurt and anger at her little world being turned upside down is the way she's showing you. You've absolutely done the right thing in leaving, just show her you love her, even when she's driving you mad let her know you're there and not going anywhere and you love her even if she's not being perfect.

I think I'm just trying to stop myself getting depressed and keeping my environment pleasant helps me with that, just like making time for self care does (face masks, baths, nail painting etc.)

I'm worried that SS will think I'm not coping if they find the house in a mess on an unannounced visit too and feel the need to "keep up appearances" I suppose.

I know my ex will be telling them things like "she won't be coping, the kids will be dirty, the house will be a mess" etc. And he had OCD so everything was always pristine when I was with him.

I mean, I'm not a dirty person and my house is not dirty, all my washing is done, I wash up, I take the bins out, I Hoover etc. But equally my standards have had to drop a bit and I didn't always like his.

For instance DD would spend hours setting up a play world for her toys or building a Lego masterpiece and then be told to tidy it away. I don't want to be OTT like that.

My step dad had OCD and it made my life a misery. I threw all my toys away in the end and lived minimally because I couldn't deal with the constant scrutiny and I know I should know better than to think mess is so important.

But I feel judged. And failing at the housework feels like failing as a parent. Failing to keep her behaviour under control feels like another failure. It all just feels like it's falling apart. But maybe it has to fall apart before it falls into place.

I remember saying to the health visitor once "sorry about the mess" and she was like this isn't a mess. This is a home. I had laundry drying everywhere, breakfast on the floor, dishes in the sink, but a well cared for DC1 and otherwise well kept place. I think I need to remember that, and what my friend said earlier which was "happy kids, messy house" lol 😂

She did say to me once since we left him when I went to the bathroom "thank you for coming back"

I said "what do you mean?"

She said "I didn't think you would come back"

I said "why? I always come back"

& she said "my daddy said if you went away you'd never come back"

It took my breath away. I literally had no idea he was fucking with her head like that...

Op just an idea, could you have a bed for her beside yours, on the condition she sleeps in it and stays in it?

Maybe she will feel more secure....also if you say you are going to bed at say 7.30pm, put your PJs on, brush your teeth together, read a story on 'her' bed then you both get into your own beds as if to fall asleep, no talking, just keep saying 'mummys tired time for sleep 'on repeat.......when she falls asleep you could get up for an hours peace and time for yourself......( if it were me l probably would just go to sleep!!)

I have tried calling women's aid on a number of occasions and they have never got back to me.

I know they are dealing with women in the midst of it and fleeing and I'm sure they are incredibly busy but it has been frustrating. I feel like I have to push so hard to get anything from services.

I'm getting the referrals and things now but it's taken me to shout at some people and get to my wits end. I know the support has all been cut and I know SS have had their budgets cut etc. But it just feels like one last kick in the teeth having to fight so hard for some help...

I think they think once you are away from them the work is done. Maybe o was naive and thought the same? The truth is the work is not done, it's hardly begun. We will be recovering from him for months years to come the rest of our lives maybe...

Just read your update op, he really was a nasty piece of work wasn't he?

I feel so sorry for her hearing that, just keep telling her daddy was wrong he was making a very bad joke, mummies always come back because they love their children more than anything......

I think if you can get her to sleep at a reasonable time, she will be a bit calmer and cope better at school and home...

She is quite little .. just don't buy snacks .. tidy her room with her and chuck away the ruined stuff and don't replace it .. keep your cool .. don't let a 5 year old call the shots !

OP, that was such a lovely post of yours about being her shelter and that is precisely what you are. You are the one who always comes back.

Your ex has been messing with your head as well as hers, but now you are away from him, you can see for yourself that his "standards" are quite simply wrong.

This is going to be a hard time while you both work through the trauma but you will make it through together. Just think of it as if she had broken her leg: it wouldn't be a failure on your part if she couldn't walk on it. But it is success if you gradually help her to heal.

I'm glad you wrote this post too @bumblebee39, it seems like you've been able to think through your DD's issues and your own a little more clearly. The more time you have away from your ex, the better you'll be able to work out what parenting strategies work for you. He sounds cruel.

You may have tried this, but would cosleeping for a bit help? Maybe suggest to DD that it's just for one week, but to get you both the cuddles you need and being that closeness back. If she can physically touch you, she can maybe rest.

"I am the plaster cast..." Lol. I know I got a bit poetic there...

Gosh, what a whirlwind of a day (again) can't wait for it to be over and a better one to begin...

She did ask to come in my bed once but then said I was "too hot and too wriggly" lol 😂 going to have to contend with lots of daytime cuddles though and she has now asked me to help her with her room tomorrow. Progress 🙌🏽

I used to think of myself as the one who breathed in the night: dd had bad panic attacks and I used to lie next to her just so she could hear me breathe and relax.

Positive steps, that's great!

Both my kids are so independent and always have been, I have missed feeling close to them.

I think my ex was jealous of my bond with them and tried to break it down/ put barriers in the way.

He was always obsessed with bedtime because then he got me to himself. Bedtimes were so strict it's no wonder there's been a backlash. My ex's mum once said to us when we stayed there "you're not in the army y'know" and she was right. That's how it was. We were the soldiers and he was our commanding officer.

She was the obedient soldier.
So was DS.
I was the disobedient one. I was the one who needed "breaking down" I didn't fit into his "army"

But she was damaged by that too. She wasn't allowed room to be herself. And maybe right now herself is angry, is hurt, is scared, is lashing out.

At least I am getting how she really feels now. The things she was too afraid to say and do before, the parts of herself she hid to be that perfect child that perfect soldier. His next in command. His favourite.

But of course I was going to be more disobedient and rebel more i am an adult and she is a child. I gave up trying to please him knowing he was impossible, but until the day we left she did everything she could to gain his love, his acceptance, his praise. Exactly because it was hard won.

I didn't want it anymore, but she always did. I am happy to be gone and she is still holding out hope of seeing him soon.

She sounds totally overwhelmed OP. Back to basics. Treat her like a baby again so she can make a new secure attachment. Dont expect anything at all from her. Even help her get dressed or dress her if you have to. Get everything out of her room or let her sleep in yours until you can choose a 'new room' with her. (A lick of paint she chooses and a couple of new posters - none of her old toys apart from ones she is bonded with). Poor girl :(

Looking back to the start of this thread I am genuinely upset by my initial reaction, lack of empathy etc.

OMG, it's true what they say you learn every day.

I am going to read up on childhood PTSD because I'm sure that's what she has. I mean, how could she not have? I know I have, I'm diagnosed with it. GP said "how could you not have it?"

Well, she's been through trauma too, some of it the same and some of it different but trauma all the same.