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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Am I unlovable as a man?

205 replies

richdeniro · 18/09/2018 22:19

Apologies for what is likely to be a long post and perhaps may come across as needy and/or entitled, that really isn't my intention, nor to be self-pitying, I guess I've found that writing things down seems to be cathartic to an extent. The reason I am posting here as I am not a father or even in a relationship but I have posted here in the past and you all seem so lovely and offer such great support and advice plus it really does help getting a womans perspective on things. This post might also be a bit all over the place so please bear with me.

Basically I guess the last few months I feel I am a bit of a mess and just cannot get over a short-ish relationship I had earlier this year which I posted about here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3260864-Ex-wants-to-be-friends-but-Im-heartbroken

I know I was essentially used as a rebound for her and that I probably did deserve better but don't seem to be able to process that logically as I'll be totally honest and say it was the closest thing I've probably had to a relationship. The rejection and pain I have been feeling since she ended it has been like nothing I've ever felt before in all honesty and today I was rejected by another girl after our second date last night which seems to have dredged these feelings back up.

I guess I have been very unlucky in love over the years - (I'm 38 now) right back to when I was in a teenager at Sixth Form. Pretty much every person I have ever had a crush on from then until my mid 30s rejected me - they were usually college/uni-friends and work colleagues. I usually didn't tell them of my feelings for weeks or months and when I was rejected had built them up so my feelings were always pretty strong so it would always hit me hard and take months to get over, usually not helped by them getting into relationships with other guys fairly soon after. In 2014 it actually led to me getting CBT because I fell hard for a work colleague and just couldn't seem to get over her after she rejected me and then started seeing another work colleague. It helped to an extent but not enough and almost feels like the effects of that have now worn off.

I've never been the type of guy who can chat girls up in bars, clubs or in other situations hence why I always found myself looking at people in my life already hence the school/work things. I lost my virginity when I was 25 to a work colleague who was 40 and just out of a divorce, we had a FWB type thing going for around 6 months but eventually she ended it, left the company and met someone else. I was pretty hurt and it took me a good while to get over it. My next relationship was when I was 32 which wasn't really a relationship, I met a girl on a work conference abroad who was from Panama, we spent around 3-4 months doing the long distance Skype type thing but only spent 3 weeks in total together during that time, it obviously fizzled out.

And for the last 6 years I have basically been doing the online dating/apps thing. I have been on countless first dates in that time, off the top of my head I would say probably in the region of 50-100. A few led to a second date but most of the time I get the 'thanks but no thanks/no chemistry or spark' type message the next day if I am not ghosted. Very occasionally I end up in a one night stand type situation from them and that is really the only time I ever have sex.

Over the last few years this has led to my self esteem always being fairly low and I have come to the conclusion that I am unlovable. I don't think I am a bad looking person, go to the gym a lot, decent job, own my place, have hobbies and think I am all the types of things that a stable guy should be. I even give off the impression on the outside that I am happy go-lucky and always have a smile on my face but inside I am dying and fighting these thoughts that I am not good enough for anyone female. I also have to stay strong because my brother is a paranoid schizophrenic and so don't want my parents to think they have another son who is a mess and not normal - not helped by the fact that I am approaching 40 and still attend family events with no significant other surrounded by cousins of a similar age who are all settled. I know this really hurts my mum too as she just wants to see me happy.

I guess the last year has really bought it to a head because I met the woman who I linked to earlier in January who kind of showed me what it was like to love and be loved back. Obviously living alone can be quite lonely but having her in my life seemed to make nothing else matter and to me it felt so real. To have that kind of intimacy was a real first for me and sorry for the cheese but it was so romantic - we used to dance together in the living room to slow songs, fall asleep hugging each other all night, etc (sorry I won't go into anymore detail but you get the picture).

Her sudden change of heart and the way she treated me in the final month has really hit me for six and has left me bewildered. I do wonder now if she was the female equivalent of a player as she did tell me about her sexual history before her marriage (slept with the entire football team at uni, former bosses, etc) and obviously knows she is attractive and knows how to play men - she flirted with them in front of me on occasions and I obviously saw her whatsapp was full of random guys numbers that weren't saved as contacts a few weeks before she ended it with lots of 'xxxx's at the end. I think the most painful thing she did thinking back was when she was at my place one evening I really opened up to her by telling her about my brothers illness and what me and my parents went through when we had him sectioned, how it was the only time I'd seen my dad cry and how I had to deal with it all to be strong for them (I've never told anyone about all that before). Within 5 minutes she was leaning forward so I couldn't see who she was messaging but I caught a glimpse and it was an unsaved number of a guy with her sending a load of heart emojis.

Anyway, I've digressed. I really haven't been able to get over her in the 3 months since she ended it, I've obviously gone completely no contact in that time and I can think back to the final month where she really treated me appallingly but I just cannot process it logically and still think about and miss her a lot. I also am hurt that she hasn't reached out in that time which I know is for the best but doesn't stop me wishing she would. I am doing better than I was in the first few weeks after she ended it but nowhere near where I should be I think.

I have resumed dating through apps but it seems to have gone back to the cycle of getting loads of first dates but never a second until just recently. I went on a date with a girl I really liked last Thursday and we went out for dinner last night but I received the text I was expecting earlier today whereby she said she thought I was really lovely but couldn't see anything romantic there. It really has made me feel down and seems to have triggered all the thoughts about my ex ending things again and that I am unlovable which I guess is why I'm writing this post.

My ex ended it by text and her final text read 'I suppose I need to fancy someone more'. This has been going round my head pretty much since I received it, I think about it quite a few times a day and it now makes me think that because of her divorce, being on the rebound, etc that it just took her a few months longer than it takes normally to see that I am not an attractive or lovable person like most of the dates I go on seem to get to almost immediately. I also can't stop blaming myself for my ex ending it, I just feel that I became needy/insecure/jealous about her messaging other guys and kept calling her out on it so she lost attraction to me as I know how those traits are unattractive as a man.

Anyway back to the original point, I'm not really sure where to go from here. I think I'm a good person and live by treating others as I would want to be treated myself, I am probably a bit shy/introverted but have an extremely wide circle of friends, people always seem to want to be my friend but nothing more, I have tons of female friends but no one ever seems to just fancy me - I can't think of a single time in my life where I have actively been asked out or fancied by a female who wasn't going through some sort of emotional issue like a divorce. They all just think I'm 'sweet' or 'nice' and just for want of a better word, Friendzone me. I've seen women tell my other guy friends that a girl likes them and things like that but it's never happened to me.

The last few years have also been tough as being in my 30s I've seen pretty much all of my close friends get married, have kids and settle down whereas I just feel like a bit of a loser who can barely get past the first date.

I just wonder if I am hard wired and have that personality type that isn't attractive to the opposite sex. I know some men do go through their lives single and wonder if I should just accept that is my destiny. I've recently signed up to therapy in a kind of one last shot before I hit 40 to try and sort myself out but I'm not sure what else I can do.

Apologies again for such a long, self involved post and I understand if I don't get many replies but thank you so much to those of you that do take the time to read and reply. I appreciate there is a lot written down and it is a bit all over the place but I guess it kinda helped just putting it all down on paper if you know what I mean.

OP posts:
Havaina · 18/09/2018 22:29

It sounds like you may be coming across as nervous or lacking in confidence which could be off-putting to some women.

How do you get the first dates online? Are you contacting the women or are they contacting you? What age women are you hoping to date? Could you be contacting women that are much younger or older?

Are there women at your hobbies? Is it possible to ask a woman out there?

educatingarti · 18/09/2018 22:29

Hi op. You sound very thoughtful and aware of your own issues and processes.
I understand you would like to be in a partnership and the is nothing wrong with that but I was struck by your comments about being the only one in your family not to have a significant other.
One thing I have learned ( as a 50 something singleton) is that I am ok and acceptable just as I am, without a partner. Society does a number I use by trying to promote the idea that all happy balanced successful people are in a relationship. This is just not true.

From the other side of things, if I got the feeling that someone was interested in me primarily because they wanted a relationship rather than be side they were really attracted to me for my own sake, I probably wouldn't feel that the chemistry was there.

educatingarti · 18/09/2018 22:30

Should read - society does a number on us!

Sally2791 · 18/09/2018 22:35

Sorry to hear you've had such a hard time.Do you think you may be trying too hard/over investing too soon? Too much intensity too soon can be off putting.
I think therapy is a great idea, if you find a counsellor that you can trust, and give it time you may well find that the underlying reasons come to light. What is your relationship with your parents and other family like?
Maybe focus more on having fun and enjoying hobbies and sports that you are genuinely interested in,preferably social ones, and just talk to people you meet in a friendly way,with no expectations.Who knows what may happen when you take the pressure off?

richdeniro · 18/09/2018 22:37

^How do you get the first dates online? Are you contacting the women or are they contacting you? What age women are you hoping to date? Could you be contacting women that are much younger or older?
Are there women at your hobbies? Is it possible to ask a woman out there?^

Just the usual way really - I use the Bumble and Hinge app so sometimes I'll message first or they will... on Bumble the woman has to message first anyway.

I have the age settings set from 30 to 45 so a similar age to myself.

I guess my hobbies are more guy type hobbies - Football and climbing mostly. I don't go to them really expecting to meet women either. I have been thinking of starting something new but can't really find anything else.

OP posts:
schopenhauer · 18/09/2018 22:39

I think you lack confidence/self esteem and, don’t mean to be mean here but is it possible that you come across as desperate? Could you come on too strong too fast perhaps, could you analyse your dating behaviour? Another thing a friend of mine who was single in his late 30s Was doing was going for much younger women in their early 20s who weren’t really compatible. That may not be the case for you at all but worth considering perhaps. As dating seems to be going wrong for you somewhere. You sound sensitive and honest and it’s highly u likely that you’re unlovable.

richdeniro · 18/09/2018 22:43

You're probably right that I do over invest and to an extent might even come across as desperate. I do try not to though and am aware of it. I've even asked some of my dates after they have sent the no spark type message that they don't really come back with any real insight and just say there wasn't a connection.

In my introductory session with the therapist she asked about my family but there is nothing there that I can think might be an underlying cause. I'm close to my mum & dad and growing up I had a very normal upbringing with loving parents. She did say that I was very young when I had to deal with the whole situation regarding my brother - I was mid-20s when he was first sectioned.

OP posts:
Airflight303 · 18/09/2018 22:48

Maybe not trying so hard on the dating apps!! The say love comes when your least expecting it,
Relax, I'm sure it will happen soon😊

Dappledsunlight · 18/09/2018 22:52

Have you considered joining a walking group? These can be a great way to enjoy exercise and I think a lot of single /divorced people are members.
You sound like you have many attractive qualities - empathy, kindness, self knowledge. Have you thought of asking one of your exes to be kind but truthful by giving you an honest appraisal of your attributes?

TwoBoysTooMany76 · 18/09/2018 22:58

richdeniro I feel for you! I really do. I have similar girlfriends in your situation. One in particular I can think about who has a serious illness in her early 20s, she’s now early 40s and thoroughly depressed that she has never had a serious relationship though she has dated... and she is a really fabulous person, she herself admits she doesn’t know how to date and tends to friendzone guys she likes...

I also know other single mums (like myself) who have difficulty dating, only because the pool of available men is much smaller and it’s trickier to date when you have kids.

Sometimes there just isn’t anything wrong with you. I keep telling myself it only takes one person to fall in love with you and you to feel the same about them. And it will take time for you to find that. If it was that easy, dating apps and companies wouldn’t be big business!

There are lots of great things about being single. And I know I will miss that when/if I get into a relationship. Sometimes we can want something so much that we forget to enjoy what we have. And like I said to my friend ‘wishing for something doesn’t mean it will make things happen faster...’

There are a lot of people in your shoes. Just keep an open mind and stay busy. If you can’t handle dating apps and the flakiness that goes with it, get off them and do something that is fun with friends - an escape room, crazy golf, immersive theatre... good luck!

JungMum · 18/09/2018 23:02

I would give up trying for a while. I have grown so tired of internet dating as well. Not tired of life, or tired of men, but tired of the process that is OLD, the swapping stories and having the men I would like to see again not want to see me again!

On the occasions when I haven't wanted to see a man again (despite there being nothing obvious 'wrong' iyswim) was probably down to him not having a clearer sense of his self. ie, needing a relationship too much because his relationship with himself needed work.

richdeniro · 18/09/2018 23:04

There's only been 3 ex's really and one of them was the long distance thing. I'm not in touch with two of them and I don't think reaching out to the woman who ended it back in July would be wise. She did put me down at lot though and say things like I was too soft... too nice and women don't need that.... but she completely lovebombed me at the beginning so I guess she was all over the place really. When she ended it she said things like 'it's nothing you did but it's me' but she did end it with that 'I need to fancy someone more' which is permanently in my head now.

OP posts:
Singletomingle · 18/09/2018 23:04

A few things jump out. Firstly you seem to have a negative view of yourself and really if you dont love yourself you cant expect anyone else to. Secondly you seem to have a lot of issues have you tried counselling? As for women I'm fairly fresh out of my marriage and not really looking for anyone but I can by shy and socially awkward so I've gone out of my way to be the opposite. I've noticed that despite the lack of interest on my part I get lots of romantic offers. I'm not trying to get flamed but the it seems confidence and aloofness are the most atttractive qualities, I've not much else going for me, if you struggle with them the old adage fake it till you make it is what I did.

mooncuplanding · 18/09/2018 23:09

You sound great - just perhaps a bit intense for first dates.

Set expectations low for a first date. Enjoy and live in the moment when on a date and only reflect AFTERWARDS whether you like the woman, not whether she likes you. That's an important shift in mindset.

mooncuplanding · 18/09/2018 23:10

She did put me down at lot though

There are a few things you have already said where you are clearly accepting terrible behaviours from women. You could do with reading some of the Red Flag threads on here and apply them to the women you date!

Wildheartsease · 18/09/2018 23:25

So sorry that you have been hurt. It takes longer than a few months to recover - just be kind to yourself for now, and don't give up.

It sounds as if you are perfectly loveable but not meeting your sort of woman.

Perhaps try to break the pattern and do some things you don't normally do .

  • Try a taster for a number of new (social) hobbies
- Go and volunteer in places you haven't thought of before. - Take a cooking course or a language learning one.
  • walk - take the bus - go to the cinema and talk to people everywhere.
  • encourage friends to introduce you to people they know.

Although you are looking, don't focus too seriously on women when you first go to new places. Just be open and friendly to everyone. (The most unlikely people can connect you to a soul-mate!)

Don't aim to find your perfect woman and then date only her. Go out with many - and enjoy every date without putting too much weight on it. The lovely (imperfect) ones you meet will have friends and relations. They will all open up your world and they will expand your chances of meeting the one you will really love and who will love you as you deserve.

Dan89 · 18/09/2018 23:30

Rich,

Large amounts of what you've written could have been written by me, and I can strongly empathise with your situation. I don't want to hijack your thread, but I posted this a while ago about my experiences

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3263005-Loneliness

I know that confidence is a massive issue for me, but having said that, I know plenty of guys and girls who say they don't have any confidence, have depression, anxiety, whatever, and still manage to get into regular relationships. If it makes you any feel better, you get much more dates and sex than I do.

I don't have any solutions, but I've always felt that I could benefit from having a mentor to guide me through how to attempt to attract women. Failing that, I wish I had a single friend that I could fail and laugh together with. Do you have anyone like this?

I also think Sally2791 made a really good point about focusing on a relationship too soon. I think maybe I have become so focused on not having a girlfriend and wanting one, that I am forgetting to connect with the person in front of me. Food for thought...

Sethis · 18/09/2018 23:37

I'm a guy, and was also "You're lovely, but..." for a long time.

Firstly, you seem to be doing what I also did for a long time, which was fixating on someone without declaring your interest, and then being hurt when that interest is rebuffed. It's a waste of time fixating on someone at all unless they give you clear signals that they are fixated right back at you. It's roughly equivalent to spending hours touching up the paintwork on a car, before checking to see if it has an engine or not. Develop the relationship almost immediately after you begin thinking to yourself "Yeah, I'd be open to a relationship with this person".

Secondly, do you have any male friends who can wingman for you? I've never had the luck of having a gang of mates who can support me on a night out or anything, but if you have climbing buddies or similar it might be worth organising a pub quiz night or something, surround yourself with people who you already know, and use that as a springboard to either meet friends-of-friends or strangers. Most people come off better as part of a group of peers rather than a loner.

Lastly, you sound like you're doing a huge quantity of overthinking, which is maybe my last great flaw I haven't managed to fix in myself, so I really do get it. I pick up on minor things and speculate endlessly about their ramifications. I formulate and discard huge quantities of scenarios and options and possibilities and by doing so I am often seen as withdrawn, melancholy or quiet. My solution thus far has been to be lucky enough to find a confident woman who has zero compunction about telling me (in the nicest possible way and with much love) to get out of my own head and just enjoy the moment.

You're never going to be perfect, and neither is anyone else. You're probably never going to find a 100% match, so look at the 95-90-85% matches, on the agreement that you're both adults, with your own lives, that you can get on with independently.

You kind of come across as myself and my view of relationships when I was in my 20s. Now I'm in my 30s then I accept that a relationship is good, because I'd like to have kids one day, and owning a dog and buying a house is much easier with a partner. However obtaining a partner is not the reason for my existence. I'll keep developing myself professionally, and living my life, making my choices along the way. If, for some or all of this, I manage to have a woman who loves me, so much the better. If not, then not.

Find a middle ground between one night stands and fixating on acquaintances. There is no "THE ONE". If there is, the chance of you finding them among 3.5 billion people across a 5000 mile sphere is astronomical. Meet someone, develop an early friendship, then if you can see romantic possibilities, ask them directly if they'd be interested. If not, move on and don't look back. I know people who've slept with scores of women and are still single, and I know women who've married their first real boyfriend. Both are equally happy and unhappy at various times but for different reasons. What matters is that you respect yourself and have confidence that you are making the most of your life for YOU.

NotTheFordType · 18/09/2018 23:49

Nobody is unlovable.

Is it possible you're coming across too intense on first dates? What sort of dates are you doing - bar/pub/restaurant? I prefer a short coffee date for a first meet - it feels less formal.

Stay away from any conversation about your long term relationship plans. Don't talk about your exes or your sexual history. Don't talk about any big emotional stuff like your brother.

Keep the conversation fun, light and at this stage fairly superficial. Ask lots of questions. What type of food is her favourite? What countries has she visited? What job does she work?

The short length of a coffee date means you are less in danger of slipping into desparation mode and scaring her off.

Good luck and I hope the counselling works well for you.

thejeangenie36 · 18/09/2018 23:52

I'm a man and I really empathised with this post. I know exactly what it's like to feel unlovable and constantly rejected. I'm married now though. I think what made the difference for me was that I stopped trying so hard. I was coming across as desperate. I suspect you may be too. I worked ony self confidence, talked to women without expectation, and love came to me.

The building up secret feelings for people at work thing is going to be off-putting for that person. Relationships should be a bit more organic than that, I think. (So ask them out early, then you won't be in a cycle of feeling over invested and rejected).

Online dating doesn't sound good for you. It's a numbers game, which means inevitable rejection, feeding your feelings. I'd move to trying to meet women in real life, which means changing or adding to your hobbies.

Sethis · 19/09/2018 00:04

Notthefordtype: "Keep the conversation fun, light and at this stage fairly superficial. Ask lots of questions. What type of food is her favourite? What countries has she visited? What job does she work?"
------------------

To this I'd add the 2-1 caveat.

Ask 2 questions for every 1 thing you say about yourself, approximately. e.g.

you: "Where did you last go on holiday?"
her: "I went to China"
you: "Oh, that sounds great. Which city?"
her: "Beijing, it was really wonderful"
you: "I always wanted to go to Japan, myself, but I never found the time. I've always been really interested in their culture."
[hopefully she'll then ask a question or two about your statement]

Earlier in my dating history, looking back, I was horrible for basically interrogating my dates. I was so scared of being "that guy" who always talked about himself I went completely off the other end and just asked endless questions which was, looking back, probably terrifying for them! Blush

Dan89 · 19/09/2018 00:06

thejeangenie36, do you mind if I ask what not trying too hard actually looks like?

If you talk to women without expectation, are you still asking them out?

Anonymoususer1938 · 19/09/2018 03:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AsleepAllDay · 19/09/2018 03:48

You want a woman to fill the void that is within yourself. You think, as we all learn, that a partner will make you happy where you are unhappy with yourself. All those things you describe - the low self esteem, the shyness, the anxiety - they are all things you can work on. It might feel like the holy grail because you've never had it but a relationship in which you still don't like yourself will bring suffering

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