Am I unlovable as a man?

[richdeniro]

Apologies for what is likely to be a long post and perhaps may come across as needy and/or entitled, that really isn't my intention, nor to be self-pitying, I guess I've found that writing things down seems to be cathartic to an extent. The reason I am posting here as I am not a father or even in a relationship but I have posted here in the past and you all seem so lovely and offer such great support and advice plus it really does help getting a womans perspective on things. This post might also be a bit all over the place so please bear with me.

Basically I guess the last few months I feel I am a bit of a mess and just cannot get over a short-ish relationship I had earlier this year which I posted about here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3260864-Ex-wants-to-be-friends-but-Im-heartbroken

I know I was essentially used as a rebound for her and that I probably did deserve better but don't seem to be able to process that logically as I'll be totally honest and say it was the closest thing I've probably had to a relationship. The rejection and pain I have been feeling since she ended it has been like nothing I've ever felt before in all honesty and today I was rejected by another girl after our second date last night which seems to have dredged these feelings back up.

I guess I have been very unlucky in love over the years - (I'm 38 now) right back to when I was in a teenager at Sixth Form. Pretty much every person I have ever had a crush on from then until my mid 30s rejected me - they were usually college/uni-friends and work colleagues. I usually didn't tell them of my feelings for weeks or months and when I was rejected had built them up so my feelings were always pretty strong so it would always hit me hard and take months to get over, usually not helped by them getting into relationships with other guys fairly soon after. In 2014 it actually led to me getting CBT because I fell hard for a work colleague and just couldn't seem to get over her after she rejected me and then started seeing another work colleague. It helped to an extent but not enough and almost feels like the effects of that have now worn off.

I've never been the type of guy who can chat girls up in bars, clubs or in other situations hence why I always found myself looking at people in my life already hence the school/work things. I lost my virginity when I was 25 to a work colleague who was 40 and just out of a divorce, we had a FWB type thing going for around 6 months but eventually she ended it, left the company and met someone else. I was pretty hurt and it took me a good while to get over it. My next relationship was when I was 32 which wasn't really a relationship, I met a girl on a work conference abroad who was from Panama, we spent around 3-4 months doing the long distance Skype type thing but only spent 3 weeks in total together during that time, it obviously fizzled out.

And for the last 6 years I have basically been doing the online dating/apps thing. I have been on countless first dates in that time, off the top of my head I would say probably in the region of 50-100. A few led to a second date but most of the time I get the 'thanks but no thanks/no chemistry or spark' type message the next day if I am not ghosted. Very occasionally I end up in a one night stand type situation from them and that is really the only time I ever have sex.

Over the last few years this has led to my self esteem always being fairly low and I have come to the conclusion that I am unlovable. I don't think I am a bad looking person, go to the gym a lot, decent job, own my place, have hobbies and think I am all the types of things that a stable guy should be. I even give off the impression on the outside that I am happy go-lucky and always have a smile on my face but inside I am dying and fighting these thoughts that I am not good enough for anyone female. I also have to stay strong because my brother is a paranoid schizophrenic and so don't want my parents to think they have another son who is a mess and not normal - not helped by the fact that I am approaching 40 and still attend family events with no significant other surrounded by cousins of a similar age who are all settled. I know this really hurts my mum too as she just wants to see me happy.

I guess the last year has really bought it to a head because I met the woman who I linked to earlier in January who kind of showed me what it was like to love and be loved back. Obviously living alone can be quite lonely but having her in my life seemed to make nothing else matter and to me it felt so real. To have that kind of intimacy was a real first for me and sorry for the cheese but it was so romantic - we used to dance together in the living room to slow songs, fall asleep hugging each other all night, etc (sorry I won't go into anymore detail but you get the picture).

Her sudden change of heart and the way she treated me in the final month has really hit me for six and has left me bewildered. I do wonder now if she was the female equivalent of a player as she did tell me about her sexual history before her marriage (slept with the entire football team at uni, former bosses, etc) and obviously knows she is attractive and knows how to play men - she flirted with them in front of me on occasions and I obviously saw her whatsapp was full of random guys numbers that weren't saved as contacts a few weeks before she ended it with lots of 'xxxx's at the end. I think the most painful thing she did thinking back was when she was at my place one evening I really opened up to her by telling her about my brothers illness and what me and my parents went through when we had him sectioned, how it was the only time I'd seen my dad cry and how I had to deal with it all to be strong for them (I've never told anyone about all that before). Within 5 minutes she was leaning forward so I couldn't see who she was messaging but I caught a glimpse and it was an unsaved number of a guy with her sending a load of heart emojis.

Anyway, I've digressed. I really haven't been able to get over her in the 3 months since she ended it, I've obviously gone completely no contact in that time and I can think back to the final month where she really treated me appallingly but I just cannot process it logically and still think about and miss her a lot. I also am hurt that she hasn't reached out in that time which I know is for the best but doesn't stop me wishing she would. I am doing better than I was in the first few weeks after she ended it but nowhere near where I should be I think.

I have resumed dating through apps but it seems to have gone back to the cycle of getting loads of first dates but never a second until just recently. I went on a date with a girl I really liked last Thursday and we went out for dinner last night but I received the text I was expecting earlier today whereby she said she thought I was really lovely but couldn't see anything romantic there. It really has made me feel down and seems to have triggered all the thoughts about my ex ending things again and that I am unlovable which I guess is why I'm writing this post.

My ex ended it by text and her final text read 'I suppose I need to fancy someone more'. This has been going round my head pretty much since I received it, I think about it quite a few times a day and it now makes me think that because of her divorce, being on the rebound, etc that it just took her a few months longer than it takes normally to see that I am not an attractive or lovable person like most of the dates I go on seem to get to almost immediately. I also can't stop blaming myself for my ex ending it, I just feel that I became needy/insecure/jealous about her messaging other guys and kept calling her out on it so she lost attraction to me as I know how those traits are unattractive as a man.

Anyway back to the original point, I'm not really sure where to go from here. I think I'm a good person and live by treating others as I would want to be treated myself, I am probably a bit shy/introverted but have an extremely wide circle of friends, people always seem to want to be my friend but nothing more, I have tons of female friends but no one ever seems to just fancy me - I can't think of a single time in my life where I have actively been asked out or fancied by a female who wasn't going through some sort of emotional issue like a divorce. They all just think I'm 'sweet' or 'nice' and just for want of a better word, Friendzone me. I've seen women tell my other guy friends that a girl likes them and things like that but it's never happened to me.

The last few years have also been tough as being in my 30s I've seen pretty much all of my close friends get married, have kids and settle down whereas I just feel like a bit of a loser who can barely get past the first date.

I just wonder if I am hard wired and have that personality type that isn't attractive to the opposite sex. I know some men do go through their lives single and wonder if I should just accept that is my destiny. I've recently signed up to therapy in a kind of one last shot before I hit 40 to try and sort myself out but I'm not sure what else I can do.

Apologies again for such a long, self involved post and I understand if I don't get many replies but thank you so much to those of you that do take the time to read and reply. I appreciate there is a lot written down and it is a bit all over the place but I guess it kinda helped just putting it all down on paper if you know what I mean.

I keep reflecting on Bardwell"s advice as I feel it is spot-on for you: "Behave as though you are attractive, OP. Because it sounds as though you are, you just don't project it, and people aren't generally going to take the time to dig you out. I have a male friend who is very attractive late 40s silver fox but who has no idea he is. He scuttles about with his body language saying 'I'm a bit of a buffoon -- pass on, nothing to see here', and I honestly think that were he single, it would be easy to miss how good-looking he is."
I have a suggestion of how to get there; I saw this happen in one of those 'makeover' programmes on TV! They took a man who was exactly like this--projected "I'm not attractive" even though he was, and sent him to acting classes. The teacher taught him to stand, walk and move in such a way that he appeared confident and in control. Modelling school does the same thing I believe. If you act it, your body and mind start to believe it. Act confident and you actually start to feel confident.
I have done a certain amount of this kind of play-acting myself because I often have to do public speaking but am naturally shy and not confident. I pretend to be confident and before you know it, I am feeling it too.

Hey All,

Just a quick update and I realised I didn't respond to a few of the later posts.

I've had two therapy sessions so far, the first was more of an introductory session where I told the therapist about my self-esteem/confidence issues, the recent breakup and some history including what happened with my brother, family dynamic and my lack of experience with relationships. After that session I did come out feeling almost like a weight had been lifted off me and I did feel quite good. I really like the therapist, her approach is 'integrative' which I think suits me and she's very easy to talk to so I feel I can really open up. She also mentioned how lovely I actually am and how nice and genuine I come across.

Some things we discussed in the second session included how even though I was in my 20s during my brothers episodes I was still very young to go through all that especially having to be putting on a brave face and being strong for my parents. She also hit on a point made above by @ravenmum about being the non-problematic son and how that was always my role so I always put on a happy face for them. She has quickly worked out that I am a 'People Pleaser' in other aspects of life too and how I put other people first even ahead of my own needs, she said it was no wonder my Ex lovebombed me because I don't put up any barriers for people like her and I need to work on that. It was also clear that when it comes to dating I just want to go from dating to being in a relationship which is not how it's done, she has suggested mindfulness and living in the present to try and counter this instead of trying to move things along too quickly. She also asked if anyone has told me that I am 'too nice' which of course a few people have including my ex although I'm not sure it's something I can help as I always look to treat people how I would want to be treated myself which I told her and she said it led to my ex taking advantage of my kind nature. I told her also about my anxiety issues and how they stretch back to school when I had to speak in front of class that I mentioned above, she has given me a 'Decatastrophision' exercise to do for things that bring me this kind of anxiety.

I am very happy with how it's going and am going to persevere although I haven't had any eureka type moments from it yet, it's nothing I didn't really already know about myself and I didn't come away from the second session feeling as uplifted or any weight had been lifted like I did from the first but I guess it's early days.

I am also following some of the advice on this thread such as trying to project confidence which has kind of helped, I went on a date last week and ended up sleeping with her (we didn't have sex as she was on her period but lots of kissing, cuddling and that kind of thing), I didn't go out looking for that but after a few drinks one thing led to another. It was the first person I've been that intimate with since the ex and was nice but reinforced the fact that I am not over my ex as all I could think about was the intimacy I had with her and I know this sounds horrible, kind of wish I had been with her instead. I ended up feeling rubbish the entire weekend as it made me think of her a lot and I guess means I really do need to take a break from the online dating until I am fully over her. I did mention this also to the therapist and how I am almost serial dating because of my desperation not to be alone, especially on a Friday or Saturday night.

As a result of this thread I also ended up going out to dinner with another poster who private messaged me offering to go on a sort of pretend date to see if she could offer any feedback and we had a lovely meal on Tuesday and has given me some really good feedback that I can work with

I also just wanted to thank all of you again who took the time to reply and post.

Sorry I meant to say at the end she is going to give me lots of good feedback I can work with - She is mulling it over and will give me her thoughts at the weekend.

Glad things are slowly sorting out for you, it will take time as Rome wasn't built in a day... but you will get there. To use a Brexiteer phrase, Take Back Control apologies for my hyperbole earlier in the thread but I am glad to see things have drastically improved.😎👍🏽

Sounds like you are really working away on it :) don't forget to do some other stuff too

Maybe you need a plan for Friday and Saturday nights. That is, you plan out your evening so that you have some treats for yourself and are busy, rather than sitting there moping.

Evening activities: go to gym/swimming and get even more amazingly toned; buy a yummy steak to put in the pan and get out a good film on Netflix; go to the cinema (nicer on your own than you might think; or invite a mate); have a pint at your local, if you have the type of local where people talk at the bar; get out a really good book from the library; save up your favourite podcasts til then and listen while jogging/in bath; get an evening hobby :) or even just plan to do your shopping then, leaving you more time in the day!

The idea simply being that you know those are your weak times, and you plan ahead so you have less time to feel sorry for yourself. That's what I do anyway.

Hi OP, basically echoing the advice people gave above, i also want to add that you sound respectful, thoughtful and self aware and those are hugely valuable qualities. And frankly, i don't think someone can be too nice, that's a rubbish reason sometimes betraying the person who says it's lack of confidence. Also, bear in mind that many people end up in relationships that aren't right for them at all for all sorts of reasons. At least it seems you're not about to settle for anything just so you're not single! Wishing you the best of luck

When people describe you as 'too nice' what do you think they mean?

It's good to hear your update - your counsellor sounds really switched on. Stick with it - it sounds like the first session was an enormous relief for you to be finally speaking to someone IRL about your feelings and anxieties.

Also glad to hear you've decided to put dating on hold for now, I think that's a very good decision. Whilst you're in counselling you will be bringing emotions to the surface that you have been burying for years and that makes you vulnerable to unscrupulous types like your ex, and also in danger of believing you're madly in love with someone unsuitable.

Re: Friday and Saturday nights. IME, being single on a weekend is awesome as I can totally please myself. However, being single and lonely fucking sucks. Can you try to spend at least one evening per week with other people? It sounds like you have some really good friends so maybe once a month you could host a dinner party for your circle - you could even suggest a "Come Dine With Me" game so you all go to each others places week by week! What about spending a Friday or Saturday with your parents. Again you could invite them over for dinner or offer to take them out or even just go round theirs and order a takeout so your mum doesn't have to cook.

Volunteering on a weekend shift can be really good for meeting others. Samaritans are always looking for people. At this time of year there's usually homeless shelters looking for help as well as outreach projects - often these revolve around local churches so check their websites as well as national websites like do-it.org.

And of course you can always post on Mumsnet!

When people describe you as 'too nice' what do you think they mean?

Well my ex said to me that she thought I was gay at first because I was 'too nice'. She also said 'we don't need it' (as in women) and to 'Man Up'.

Your ex sounds horrendous.

That's what she thought about it. What do you think?

MrBuscuits - No worries mate.

AbiBrown Thank you :)

@ravenmum @NotTheFordType
I'm definitely trying to find things to do other than going on dates. I go to the gym and swimming anyway, it's nicer on a Friday night too as it's so empty and you get all the machines to yourself - am currently doing the 100 pressup challenge too which actually takes up an hour of every evening anyway. Often see friends every couple of weeks or so anyway as I have a season ticket for my local football team so will always be going to football with them every other week at least and I go and see my parents most Sundays for a roast dinner anyway. October seems to be fairly busy socially as I have something or other going on each weekend. But you have listed some amazing other ideas too :)

That's what she thought about it. What do you think?

I think it makes me appear as too soft and lacking in confidence/assertiveness which I know are extremely attractive traits to most women.

You can still be 'soft' and confident. It's about being happy in your own skin, I really think that;s all there is to it.

Being 'too nice', I think can be being too agreeable to others, as in being eager to people please, which shows a need to be liked. This means that you might forego what you REALLY think, to suit someone elses need or agenda.

Being nice, is not an issue - but people pleasing because you want to be loved, is. You are doing the right thing by speaking to a counsellor, it can take some time so stick with it.

But being "too nice" doesn't mean "seeming gay", whatever that might mean ... and it doesn't mean "looking to treat people how I would want to be treated myself " either - far from it.

It means always saying yes, whatever people ask, so they never know if you really want to do stuff or if you are just being polite. You wouldn't want to feel like that about someone.

It means that you always just agree with people, so that you can't get in a proper discussion and bounce off of each other. You would surely prefer a lively discussion to a dull one.

It means that you never do something stupid and have to apologise, so the other person will always feel inferior to you, like you are always perfect. You wouldn't like to feel inferior to your partner.

It means you are always bloody happy, so the other person can never help you out or give you a cuddle to cheer you up; you do it for them, but they never get to do it back, and they feel indebted and useless. You wouldn't like to feel like that.

It means that (as far as they know) you would watch your partner passionately kiss another man right in front of you, without saying anything - as if you didn't care. You'd want your partner to feel jealous.

It means that if someone is rude to your partner, you won't stand up for them; you'll tell them the rude person didn't mean it, as you think everyone is nice. You would want your partner to stand up for you.

A few examples...

I'm glad you feel you are making progress. You make not have an epiphany or 'eureka' moment, but it's very difficult to be objective when you are looking at yourself. Your councillor sounds good, and maybe she can give you another perspective, different from your own. Look after yourself.

Well my ex said to me that she thought I was gay at first because I was 'too nice'. She also said 'we don't need it' (as in women) and to 'Man Up'.

Frankly, I wouldn't take the slightest bit of notice of that, as it sounds as if she (like a significant, if small, minority of women, some of whom do bob up on Mn from time to time, with all the self-awareness of a rubber band) has absorbed the idea that Real Men Treat You Mean and Keep You Keen, and therefore that behaving like a nice person is a sign of lack of manliness. This kind of woman is also addicted to the drama of being negged and kept on edge, and thus feels weirdly let down by a relationship which is on an even keel with no game playing and fights. (Also, has your ex not ever spent time with gay men? Being attracted to your own sex doesn't turn you into the Good Samaritan. )

Tl;dr -- Don't let yourself be guided by advice which unthinkingly associates manliness with bad behaviour.

On the other hand, assuming your counsellor has enough self-knowledge not to make this set of associations, she may have a point, in that your desperation to be in a relationship may express itself as literally dancing attendance on someone with whom you've had one date. This is not 'niceness' as it is ordinarily known in the sense of good nature and kindness, which are always attractive -- it's more a desperate craving to be whatever this new woman appears to need at any particular moment, whether that's a cup of tea or a shrink.

It's unattractive because it makes you appear not to value yourself as you are, and it also renders your own personality and preferences semi-invisible, because you're so busy being what the other person wants. There are men who only seem to develop hobbies, interests and a life when they borrow those of the current girlfriend, and the rest of the time they seem to exist in some weird limbo or stasis.

I don't think you are like that, OP, but I think that the accusations of being 'too nice' suggest that you are behaving on dates like someone at a job interview for a job they desperately want. Whereas dating is a two-way things -- you are both checking out one another. You need to behave as though you have a lot to offer, too.

And no, it doesn't sound to me as if you should be dating, if you are clearly not having a very good time, but still sleeping with someone on a first date and not enjoying it because it makes you think about your ex. That's good for no one.

I completely get you @chemicalworld and @ravenmum

I don't think I am that type of person though, whilst I probably am to some extent a People Pleaser I don't think I'm weak and often stand up for myself and others. I have my own opinions and express them. But I see where you are coming from especially with bottling some things up.

When my ex said about being too soft and how women don't need that, it was because she was having a coil fitted and I offered to go with her to the clinic as I knew she wouldn't be feeling great afterwards.

I just think my demeanour comes across as perhaps overly caring, soft and perhaps too happy-go-lucky if that makes any sense.

Quite honestly, my ex offered to come with me to have my coil fitted and I really appreciated it. I did need someone there then, from what you have said it sounds like the things she cruelly pointed out as negatives to you - just mean that you were not compatible. These were HER issues, and you do not need to change yourself in that regard.

I think you sound great, and if you weren't hung up on your ex i'd ask you out myself.

It does depend on how you actually come across, and also what kind of woman you are going for :)

When I was first going out with my bf, one night he had really awful toothache and had to go to the emergency clinic to get it sorted. At one point I was looking at him and probably reflected the miserable look on his face in my own, as he told me to stop looking so concerned :) - he didn't want someone being toooo concerned as it just made him feel worse. Reminded me of when I was in labour and my ex wanted to hold my hand, but his was so trembly and sweaty I didn't want to!

If you see your ex again you can tell her from me, though, that she doesn't know what women want. (We are not actually the Borg.)

You say you are 'to some extent a People Pleaser' - in what way?

she (like a significant, if small, minority of women, some of whom do bob up on Mn from time to time, with all the self-awareness of a rubber band) has absorbed the idea that Real Men Treat You Mean and Keep You Keen, and therefore that behaving like a nice person is a sign of lack of manliness. This kind of woman is also addicted to the drama of being negged and kept on edge, and thus feels weirdly let down by a relationship which is on an even keel with no game playing and fights.

Well towards the end she was definitely veering towards wanting a well built alpha male type like that hence her chatting to a Tommy Robinson supporting racist and also another guy who had spent a year in prison for a hammer attack. I also think her comments about 'needing to fancy someone more' were her way of saying she wanted to sleep around and being with guys like that. I guess it's something she feels she needs to do after her divorce and being with me.

You say you are 'to some extent a People Pleaser' - in what way?

Obviously with my parents I never let them know anything is wrong and put on a 'my life is great' type face with them and don't want them to worry about me.

At work I have only told one work friend about what I have been through the last few months with the ex and have never told a single work friend/colleague about the things I've been through with my brother - even when he was sectioned and we were in A&E until 4am I went to work the next day as though nothing was wrong.

Also at work I just get on with everything rarely mentioning if I'm frustrated with any aspects of it. Although since the move into HR I am a lot more vocal.

I don't think that's so much people pleasing behaviour as being closed off. Is there anybody in your life that you're 'yourself' with - someone you feel really comfortable with and just tell them what you feel?