Am I unlovable as a man?

[richdeniro]

Apologies for what is likely to be a long post and perhaps may come across as needy and/or entitled, that really isn't my intention, nor to be self-pitying, I guess I've found that writing things down seems to be cathartic to an extent. The reason I am posting here as I am not a father or even in a relationship but I have posted here in the past and you all seem so lovely and offer such great support and advice plus it really does help getting a womans perspective on things. This post might also be a bit all over the place so please bear with me.

Basically I guess the last few months I feel I am a bit of a mess and just cannot get over a short-ish relationship I had earlier this year which I posted about here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3260864-Ex-wants-to-be-friends-but-Im-heartbroken

I know I was essentially used as a rebound for her and that I probably did deserve better but don't seem to be able to process that logically as I'll be totally honest and say it was the closest thing I've probably had to a relationship. The rejection and pain I have been feeling since she ended it has been like nothing I've ever felt before in all honesty and today I was rejected by another girl after our second date last night which seems to have dredged these feelings back up.

I guess I have been very unlucky in love over the years - (I'm 38 now) right back to when I was in a teenager at Sixth Form. Pretty much every person I have ever had a crush on from then until my mid 30s rejected me - they were usually college/uni-friends and work colleagues. I usually didn't tell them of my feelings for weeks or months and when I was rejected had built them up so my feelings were always pretty strong so it would always hit me hard and take months to get over, usually not helped by them getting into relationships with other guys fairly soon after. In 2014 it actually led to me getting CBT because I fell hard for a work colleague and just couldn't seem to get over her after she rejected me and then started seeing another work colleague. It helped to an extent but not enough and almost feels like the effects of that have now worn off.

I've never been the type of guy who can chat girls up in bars, clubs or in other situations hence why I always found myself looking at people in my life already hence the school/work things. I lost my virginity when I was 25 to a work colleague who was 40 and just out of a divorce, we had a FWB type thing going for around 6 months but eventually she ended it, left the company and met someone else. I was pretty hurt and it took me a good while to get over it. My next relationship was when I was 32 which wasn't really a relationship, I met a girl on a work conference abroad who was from Panama, we spent around 3-4 months doing the long distance Skype type thing but only spent 3 weeks in total together during that time, it obviously fizzled out.

And for the last 6 years I have basically been doing the online dating/apps thing. I have been on countless first dates in that time, off the top of my head I would say probably in the region of 50-100. A few led to a second date but most of the time I get the 'thanks but no thanks/no chemistry or spark' type message the next day if I am not ghosted. Very occasionally I end up in a one night stand type situation from them and that is really the only time I ever have sex.

Over the last few years this has led to my self esteem always being fairly low and I have come to the conclusion that I am unlovable. I don't think I am a bad looking person, go to the gym a lot, decent job, own my place, have hobbies and think I am all the types of things that a stable guy should be. I even give off the impression on the outside that I am happy go-lucky and always have a smile on my face but inside I am dying and fighting these thoughts that I am not good enough for anyone female. I also have to stay strong because my brother is a paranoid schizophrenic and so don't want my parents to think they have another son who is a mess and not normal - not helped by the fact that I am approaching 40 and still attend family events with no significant other surrounded by cousins of a similar age who are all settled. I know this really hurts my mum too as she just wants to see me happy.

I guess the last year has really bought it to a head because I met the woman who I linked to earlier in January who kind of showed me what it was like to love and be loved back. Obviously living alone can be quite lonely but having her in my life seemed to make nothing else matter and to me it felt so real. To have that kind of intimacy was a real first for me and sorry for the cheese but it was so romantic - we used to dance together in the living room to slow songs, fall asleep hugging each other all night, etc (sorry I won't go into anymore detail but you get the picture).

Her sudden change of heart and the way she treated me in the final month has really hit me for six and has left me bewildered. I do wonder now if she was the female equivalent of a player as she did tell me about her sexual history before her marriage (slept with the entire football team at uni, former bosses, etc) and obviously knows she is attractive and knows how to play men - she flirted with them in front of me on occasions and I obviously saw her whatsapp was full of random guys numbers that weren't saved as contacts a few weeks before she ended it with lots of 'xxxx's at the end. I think the most painful thing she did thinking back was when she was at my place one evening I really opened up to her by telling her about my brothers illness and what me and my parents went through when we had him sectioned, how it was the only time I'd seen my dad cry and how I had to deal with it all to be strong for them (I've never told anyone about all that before). Within 5 minutes she was leaning forward so I couldn't see who she was messaging but I caught a glimpse and it was an unsaved number of a guy with her sending a load of heart emojis.

Anyway, I've digressed. I really haven't been able to get over her in the 3 months since she ended it, I've obviously gone completely no contact in that time and I can think back to the final month where she really treated me appallingly but I just cannot process it logically and still think about and miss her a lot. I also am hurt that she hasn't reached out in that time which I know is for the best but doesn't stop me wishing she would. I am doing better than I was in the first few weeks after she ended it but nowhere near where I should be I think.

I have resumed dating through apps but it seems to have gone back to the cycle of getting loads of first dates but never a second until just recently. I went on a date with a girl I really liked last Thursday and we went out for dinner last night but I received the text I was expecting earlier today whereby she said she thought I was really lovely but couldn't see anything romantic there. It really has made me feel down and seems to have triggered all the thoughts about my ex ending things again and that I am unlovable which I guess is why I'm writing this post.

My ex ended it by text and her final text read 'I suppose I need to fancy someone more'. This has been going round my head pretty much since I received it, I think about it quite a few times a day and it now makes me think that because of her divorce, being on the rebound, etc that it just took her a few months longer than it takes normally to see that I am not an attractive or lovable person like most of the dates I go on seem to get to almost immediately. I also can't stop blaming myself for my ex ending it, I just feel that I became needy/insecure/jealous about her messaging other guys and kept calling her out on it so she lost attraction to me as I know how those traits are unattractive as a man.

Anyway back to the original point, I'm not really sure where to go from here. I think I'm a good person and live by treating others as I would want to be treated myself, I am probably a bit shy/introverted but have an extremely wide circle of friends, people always seem to want to be my friend but nothing more, I have tons of female friends but no one ever seems to just fancy me - I can't think of a single time in my life where I have actively been asked out or fancied by a female who wasn't going through some sort of emotional issue like a divorce. They all just think I'm 'sweet' or 'nice' and just for want of a better word, Friendzone me. I've seen women tell my other guy friends that a girl likes them and things like that but it's never happened to me.

The last few years have also been tough as being in my 30s I've seen pretty much all of my close friends get married, have kids and settle down whereas I just feel like a bit of a loser who can barely get past the first date.

I just wonder if I am hard wired and have that personality type that isn't attractive to the opposite sex. I know some men do go through their lives single and wonder if I should just accept that is my destiny. I've recently signed up to therapy in a kind of one last shot before I hit 40 to try and sort myself out but I'm not sure what else I can do.

Apologies again for such a long, self involved post and I understand if I don't get many replies but thank you so much to those of you that do take the time to read and reply. I appreciate there is a lot written down and it is a bit all over the place but I guess it kinda helped just putting it all down on paper if you know what I mean.

Pp have made excellent suggestions. Can I make a really short one? I noticed in you OP that you refer to women as females. Don't so that with any of your love interests, that put many women right off.

I think I've met you, OP...well probably not you personally, but men like you. They are lovely, good guys but they watched me from afar for a while and, as you say, built me up into something I wasn't before we'd even got to know each other. Often with feelings to accompany it.

I couldn't handle it. If they'd approached me when they were first interested, gone into it with an open mind and got to know me, then had feelings develop that way if we clicked, that would be fine. But it's a terrible burden being someone else's fantasy.

I really doubt that you are actually unattractive in any way. I doubt that very much. It sounds to me, if you are the personality I think you are, that you just need to see both yourself and women just as people. People with flaws, merits and various interests and desires.

Also, I really do believe that faint heart never won fair lady. If you are interested in a woman, don't think of it as "chatting her up"...think of it as just talking to another person you find interesting. If the conversation seems to go well, you can ask her out for a drink. They're called social skills for a reason - simply, that they really are skills, and skills can be learned.

Good luck.

@Dan89, you asked what not trying looked like. (Oh, the irony of anyone asking me for dating advice!).

I think it means not getting over invested in the women you meet. I was setting up anyone I found attractive as a potential partner in my head. That meant I wasn't focusing on building a human connection with them. So I had to change my mindset, from 'OMG this could be THE ONE' to 'this is an interesting person, and it would be interesting to get to know them but I don't mind if nothing develops'. I wasn't asking women out if I had no signal they were interested in me.

I also stopped chasing unattainable women. I was getting attracted to the sort of women that all my other friends were attracted to, the '9 out of 10s'. I had to (and I mean this in the best possible way) lower my sights a bit, and focus on finding people interesting rather than superficially attractive. The reality is that most women are attractive in some way, I think.

In this respect it might help if you put yourself in situations where you can meet women in real life. Women at work, in this MeToo generation, are not attainable. If you can socialise with women in a 'just as friends' capacity, you can build your confidence in talking to them. Also, what sort of women are you dating? There's little point at 38 in dating women in their 20s. There are some women who will be in your situation - just unlucky - but not many. Are you, for instance, dating single parents who might be looking for a good guy?

Where are your friends in this? Are they aware you are looking for love? Could they or their partners be trying to put you in touch with suitable people?

Finally, the self-confidence thing is important. I think you have to believe you are attractive to be attractive. Rich, if you are still reading this, you evidently have a lot going for you. But what is coming across is how much you have internalised the rejection. Instead of saying 'I've been unlucky', or 'I need to improve my dating technique', you are thinking that there is something wrong with you. You've done this to an extent that the model for your relationships, the thing you are chasing, is the one with your ex, who frankly sounds sh!t: that relationship is not what relationships are supposed to be. So it was her that was wrong, and not you. If you could get Counselling, start to believe in yourself again, I think it would help.

You sound very much the guy who went on a first date with my sister. We met him that night (random set of circumstances, rare night out for me and DH so we met my sister after our dinner, not usual first date protocol!).

He was very sweet, and good looking. But he talked a lot about the second and third dates, mentioned his ex a fair bit, and just generally came across as needy. After the date they were texting for a while that night, my sister woke up to a string of ‘hello...have you stopped speaking to me...ok I guess that’s it then...’ texts, as she’d fallen asleep.

When she texted the next day to say thanks for the date but I think that’s it, he replied with a litany of what amounted to ‘but whyyyy’.

Months on he still messages occasionally, and pestered my sisters best friend on Tinder because dsis was on her profile picture.

If that was you, metaphorically or actually (his name was Richard!), then that is why. Relax, dial back the future talk and the neediness.

Best of luck. Also please avoid phrases like ‘slept with the whole football team’ and ‘friendzone’ as they are immediate no no’s.

Reading your post, it sounds like you think a partner will be the solution to a life that may not be as fulfilling as it should be.

I'm not a man, but I've been in that place too and it is not the right way to approach dating.

You need to fill your life with things that you enjoy and make it rich and rewarding and then you are in the right place to look for someone to join you in the good time that your life already is. Otherwise, you are basically looking for human being sticking plaster to try and fix you. That's a huge burden to place on another human being & possibly people sense this when they meet you on dates.

Ahh lovely, your post touched a nerve - it could have been written by my husband! He was 29 when he lost his virginity, had had a strict religious upbringing where sex should be within marriage only and was incredibly lacking in confidence following high school meanness. Anyway he spent his thirties trying to find a long-term partner and got cheated on twice by women he believed he was in committed relationships with (at approx 18 month mark). He tried dating apps but had no success and by the rime he was 40 had pretty much given up on women. Then he met me lol - I could see how gentle, caring, decent, he was as well as his good lucks - I couldn't believe he hadn't been snapped up. Years later we are married and have children. My Dad was 50 when he met my Mum and 55 when I was born - they were together 35 years. I guess I'm trying to say life can change on a sixpence and you mustn't feel you are not a lovable person just because nobody has seen it yet. You know you are a nice man, you need to let that shine through your life. Good luck.

Hi OP. Firstly, your ex sounds absolutely horrific. She left you because she couldn’t keep up the facade of being a good person any more (your description of her insensitivity after you opening up about your brother is awful). She gave you a glimpse of something you need, so it’s good to acknowledge that, but she wasn’t ever going to be able to follow through. Be glad she fucked off. It would never have been real.

I think it would be a good idea to really focus on giving yourself some support you need. Assertiveness training, personal therapy, personal growth conferences, yoga...anything that connects you with yourself and is about helping you to love and protect yourself.

I bet that you’re a bit codependent due to your experiences with your brother (I grew up with mental illness in the family too and it certainly made me hyper vigilant about others feelings, to the detriment of my own). So it’s important to put the focus back on you, for you. It may feel counter intuitive but you will connect with others more deeply that way.

It sounds like you could foster a little narcissism Maybe try some affirmations too, every day. Look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself how awesome you are. Give yourself some love. Sounds daft but why not?

Tune in to the fact that you are not a victim. You’re brimming with advantages.

Good luck and support yourself first.

I can only echo what others have said to you here. I can totally understand how you feel about being the only one without a plus one, turning up at family events alone over the years has been tough on me. I am now 37 and still do this! However, a change has happened inside of me after I realised through counselling that because of the way we are conditioned through society etc was making me depressed. I felt like a failure as a human and I shamed myself for it. I felt ashamed to be me because if someone else didn’t love me then who the hell was I?

I started working on myself, doing well at work, doing courses in things that I enjoy. I walk a lot, and regularly meet with others to do this. I am training to become a counsellor and through that had a lot of counselling. I started gardening and just generally investing in myself. I did have a relationship with someone, and fell in love, but I would have had to change everything about myself to fit into his life (moving, becoming a step mum, stopping things I enjoy) and I realised I didn’t want that either.

I no longer chastise myself and I recommend that you get some counselling to help you to stop doing the same. You sound like a lovely person and it sounds to me like your ex was a bit of a bitch! Don’t let her cruelty reflect on you, it’s her. You have internalised what she said to you when it is likely more about her. You sound like a sensitive man, who is caring as well. This is a bonus.

Keep investing in you, and stop focussing on the getting a partner bit, just build on connections with those around you and work on your happiness. Get out in the real world. Online dating is tough, I do it myself but also do other things too.

Hello All,

I haven't got the time to reply properly at the moment as am at work but just wanted to say thank you to you all, I know I need to work on my self-esteem and confidence which hopefully the therapy will help with.

I would also consider whether you come on very strong and intense. I just ended it with a guy who I had quite a few great dates with because he was just so intense, always making jokes about us getting married and lazy Sunday mornings with our kids etc, the first time it's funny and I thought he was just letting me know he was open to commitment but after a few comments like that it really freaked me out. There's something that seems unhealthy about someone so willing to commit who falls in love so easy. I couldn't see it ever leading to a healthy relationship

You sound like a nice guy who is lacking in confidence and has a tendency to get over invested too soon. You’re obsessing over women for an extended period before even asking them out, so you’re crushed when they say no. Imo you’d benefit from more casual dating, getting to know someone and actually being in a relationship with them before falling in love with them. Love isn’t just about you wanting them - it’s also about them wanting you.

You obviously think you had this perfect romance with your ex, but she probably just thinks she gave it her best shot with a guy who ticked all the boxes but didn’t light her fire. It isn’t unusual for people to sleep, dance, hug, or have sex with someone and then decide nope, I tried but I’m just not feeling it.

If someone says there’s no spark it usually isn’t about looks (if it was about looks they wouldn’t have agreed to the first date). It’s generally because they want someone confident, fun, sociable, assertive, and perhaps you came across as weak, clingy or needy.

I genuinely think that you should just focus on enjoying nice dates with lovely women and not build up your expectations too soon. Be more picky and think about whether they tick your boxes!

When you're desperate and it comes across that you would go out with anyone who would happily date you, then that is really off-putting to be on the receiving end of. It kind of feels like the other person isn't really seeing you as an individual, just as a 'female of the species'.

You obviously think you had this perfect romance with your ex, but she probably just thinks she gave it her best shot with a guy who ticked all the boxes but didn’t light her fire. It isn’t unusual for people to sleep, dance, hug, or have sex with someone and then decide nope, I tried but I’m just not feeling it.

I agree with this and also, having glanced at the OP of your last thread, rich, it wasn't a long relationship. You got together in January, and you posted the thread in May saying you'd broken up by mutual agreement a month earlier it sounds as if, from your point of view, it got intensely serious very quickly, or that you may have read early-stage dating romance as indicating more investment from her than was really the case so early on.

Agree entirely with those who say you get over-invested too soon. You see rejection where other people with higher self-esteem would be more philosophical like the older colleague to whom you lost your virginity, and had a FWB situation with for six months until she left the company, ended the FWB and met someone else. This was highly unlikely to turn into a marriage she was newly divorced, there was a substantial age gap, and you were at different life stages, and it sounds as though you were both clear from the start that it wasn't a 'relationship'. You say you were hurt and felt rejected, but isn't another way of looking at it that you got some valuable sexual experience, you were both there for one another when needed, and the FWB worked well while it lasted, and ended when one party met someone they wanted a relationship with? -- that's pretty normal.

OLD I'm sure is hugely bruising a lot of the time for everyone involved, but again, you can't take it personally. Just as very few of the people I meet I like enough to become proper friends and some of them of course I liked, but didn't like me enough, or had enough friends very few of the dates you do on will develop further. They are mutual experiments, not purely opportunities for you being rejected. You say very little about how you have felt after these dates did you really like the women? You seem to be focusing on how you are 'not good enough for many women' what about whether you liked them, and whether they suited you?

Hi Op, you will be fine,you sound lovely. One quick tip,i've never gone for a meal on a second date (and I've had many a pof date..over 50!). However,i do hear of women wanting a free meal?
First date for me is quick greet and meet coffee for an hour.
Second I have walked my dog with a couple. Or a wander around a garden centre
Third maybe a take away at home. By the third date people have usually made up their mind about the other person.
You will meet someone when the time is right and it will be easy.

Take the advice of the people on the dating thread - don't over invest , treat each meeting as that - a "meet up" as opposed to a "date ". Someone said on there - imagine you walk into a pub of 100 people - what are the chances of you being attracted to one of them and they to you ? Very slim . We wouldn't expect that in real life so it's the same with OLD. As someone else said above , just be casual and don't get into any deep conversations early on . TBH Your EX sounds like a nightmare and you need to forget about her and what she said . She sounds a right bitch !

"I also stopped chasing unattainable women. I was getting attracted to the sort of women that all my other friends were attracted to, the '9 out of 10s'. I had to (and I mean this in the best possible way) lower my sights a bit, and focus on finding people interesting rather than superficially attractive. The reality is that most women are attractive in some way, I think. " Why am I strangely offended by this reply?

I think you sound perfectly lovely, OP. I personally wouldn't date someone from OLD. Maybe you should lay off OLD if you want something deeper.

Sweetness (a 6 out of 10 but interesting as fuck)

Random suggestion, but have you thought about getting a dog? This would give you the companionship, get you out and about, people talk to you (and if you always walk around the same time you get to know them better), and a dog is always delighted to see you (proof that you are loveable, thus raising your self-esteem).

Aw you poor thing.
Firstly I would get some more counselling to help with your feelings of rejection, they can really twist you up and my male friend says counselling really helped with this, you also sound angry and need to get a handle on that for your mental health.

It sounds like you're getting invested way too quickly and maybe you're a bit too intense? I've had friends suddenly proclaim their undying love before after being quite quiet and uninvolved with me and it's odd because you suddenly feel like you must have never known them if you didn't see this coming. It's a lot of pressure too and can come across as scary.

You're certainly not unlovable though - unlucky maybe, but nobody is unlovable if why're kind.

Here is my opinion and advice. Read a couple of books, 'no more Mr nice guy' (despite the name does not yet to tell you to be an alpha a**hole, can also be downloaded as a free pdf, I believe) 'The mindful attraction plan' by Atholl Kay. A classic ' Men are from Mars, women are from Venus'. (Trying to look through another's eyes) You will find that finding confidence is very important, but becoming more attractive is relatively easy (small things can make a difference overall and you don't need many small changes to make a larger difference) In my opinion you feel that you are owed something. You will not find this by wallowing. You need to set goals personally, get fit, get in shape for example. (Not thinking Swartzenegger, just in good shape) Get out and spend more time with men, see what they do. Sometimes the best way to meet and get to know women is through other men. Join a sports team, or become a volunteer somewhere. Get out and socialise more, you will rub up against different people and some of what they have will rub off onto you. It's not too late to change your outlook. If you make a 1% change in your life a day in 100 days you will have changed completely. Make yourself the best version of you. Look after yourself. Best of luck.

Why am I strangely offended by this reply?

I thought that was pretty offensive myself. It implied this poster ranked women on physical attractiveness according to numerical criteria, 0 to 10, and when the women he rated as 9s and 10s weren't interested in him, he set his sights lower on the lesser-ranked 6s and 7s, rather as though he decided to buy a cheaper car. It's incredibly depressing to think that an adult man defaults to giving women marks out of ten for how fuckable he thinks they are.

At least the OP doesn't suffer from this 'women are ratable consumer goods' problem.

Therapy has definitely helped me. Stick with it, it can be a long road but I finally feel able to make healthy decisions for myself.

To the posters who were offended by my reply re '9 out of 10': sorry! It didn't mean it that way (post was done very late at night in a sleep deprived state). I don't rank women in my head that way and I don't treat them as 'consumer goods'. That's an offensive assertion.

What I was trying to say was that I used to fall hard for women who were superficially very attractive. I never got to know the inner person because I was too blinded by outer beauty. When actually it's other qualities that make people attractive. I had to get to know that. And I had to learn to stop internally investing in this imaginary relationship with unattainable women.

I think, if you read my post, I think you'd see that I was encouraging the OP to do that: to spend time with women in a way that didn't treat them as objects to be desired. That's absolutely not what I'm about. I spent quite a bit of time trying to craft that reply in terms a guy could relate to, and evidently failed.

Tbh I don't know why men talk about always pursing 9/10s or whatever horrible term they're using at the moment. Men are really not that choosy and I don't understand why so many of them pretend that they are.

I've had women use the "S word" at me before (Sweet ) and have been 'friendzoned' a few times which still doesn't feel great. I've tried OLD as well, even tried meeting women in different scenarios such as a car supermarket. It's cringey now when I think about it but there was one girl I saw from afar - she had her hair tied up in a bun, cute glasses, nice fitted skirt with smart jacket. My heart was going 100 miles an hour when she approached me and asked if there was anything I liked. I wanted to blurt out 'I like you' but I tried to act all cool. I put down £500 deposit on a nearly new Renault just to see if she would come on the test drive with me. My palms were so sweaty when I wrote the reg number of the car I liked and when she returned with the keys, I asked what time she finished work. She blushed and said she would get a colleague to come over and assist me. This girl was a 9 out of 10, I could have definitely have seen a potential friendship, perhaps more!

So me and this bloke ended up driving around Chingford for 30 mins in this car that I had now put a deposit on, and I told him at the end of the drive I liked the car, but wanted a red one instead of silver and could I get my deposit back. There was no sign of the girl that had caught my eye. The Manager reluctantly refunded me, and said I should not return if I was there to bother his staff. Since then my confidence has really taken a knock. I have tried speed dating, I have even tried being super aggressive as it seems girls love a bad boy. I can't see what the problem is, I make over £45k, don't live in social housing, and am still at home. I think some are too choosy. I tried to
speak to my counsellor about it and have spent a fortune on classes on building confidence as well a self-help guides and DVDs on the matter. Am I investing too much or are people just getting ruder?

Ahhh one of the 'nice'guys. First of all this woman was at work, you liked her but did you have an indication she was keen on you before asking her out whilst she was simply doing her job? You had no idea about her situation, or if she liked you and you asked her what time she finished work?

Second of all, The way you speak about women is though we are a different species, we arent. Nor are we commodities, we are humans looking fpr a connection, which is what building a relationship is.

You sound entitled and clearly need to speak to someone a lot further.