Am I unlovable as a man?

[richdeniro]

Apologies for what is likely to be a long post and perhaps may come across as needy and/or entitled, that really isn't my intention, nor to be self-pitying, I guess I've found that writing things down seems to be cathartic to an extent. The reason I am posting here as I am not a father or even in a relationship but I have posted here in the past and you all seem so lovely and offer such great support and advice plus it really does help getting a womans perspective on things. This post might also be a bit all over the place so please bear with me.

Basically I guess the last few months I feel I am a bit of a mess and just cannot get over a short-ish relationship I had earlier this year which I posted about here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3260864-Ex-wants-to-be-friends-but-Im-heartbroken

I know I was essentially used as a rebound for her and that I probably did deserve better but don't seem to be able to process that logically as I'll be totally honest and say it was the closest thing I've probably had to a relationship. The rejection and pain I have been feeling since she ended it has been like nothing I've ever felt before in all honesty and today I was rejected by another girl after our second date last night which seems to have dredged these feelings back up.

I guess I have been very unlucky in love over the years - (I'm 38 now) right back to when I was in a teenager at Sixth Form. Pretty much every person I have ever had a crush on from then until my mid 30s rejected me - they were usually college/uni-friends and work colleagues. I usually didn't tell them of my feelings for weeks or months and when I was rejected had built them up so my feelings were always pretty strong so it would always hit me hard and take months to get over, usually not helped by them getting into relationships with other guys fairly soon after. In 2014 it actually led to me getting CBT because I fell hard for a work colleague and just couldn't seem to get over her after she rejected me and then started seeing another work colleague. It helped to an extent but not enough and almost feels like the effects of that have now worn off.

I've never been the type of guy who can chat girls up in bars, clubs or in other situations hence why I always found myself looking at people in my life already hence the school/work things. I lost my virginity when I was 25 to a work colleague who was 40 and just out of a divorce, we had a FWB type thing going for around 6 months but eventually she ended it, left the company and met someone else. I was pretty hurt and it took me a good while to get over it. My next relationship was when I was 32 which wasn't really a relationship, I met a girl on a work conference abroad who was from Panama, we spent around 3-4 months doing the long distance Skype type thing but only spent 3 weeks in total together during that time, it obviously fizzled out.

And for the last 6 years I have basically been doing the online dating/apps thing. I have been on countless first dates in that time, off the top of my head I would say probably in the region of 50-100. A few led to a second date but most of the time I get the 'thanks but no thanks/no chemistry or spark' type message the next day if I am not ghosted. Very occasionally I end up in a one night stand type situation from them and that is really the only time I ever have sex.

Over the last few years this has led to my self esteem always being fairly low and I have come to the conclusion that I am unlovable. I don't think I am a bad looking person, go to the gym a lot, decent job, own my place, have hobbies and think I am all the types of things that a stable guy should be. I even give off the impression on the outside that I am happy go-lucky and always have a smile on my face but inside I am dying and fighting these thoughts that I am not good enough for anyone female. I also have to stay strong because my brother is a paranoid schizophrenic and so don't want my parents to think they have another son who is a mess and not normal - not helped by the fact that I am approaching 40 and still attend family events with no significant other surrounded by cousins of a similar age who are all settled. I know this really hurts my mum too as she just wants to see me happy.

I guess the last year has really bought it to a head because I met the woman who I linked to earlier in January who kind of showed me what it was like to love and be loved back. Obviously living alone can be quite lonely but having her in my life seemed to make nothing else matter and to me it felt so real. To have that kind of intimacy was a real first for me and sorry for the cheese but it was so romantic - we used to dance together in the living room to slow songs, fall asleep hugging each other all night, etc (sorry I won't go into anymore detail but you get the picture).

Her sudden change of heart and the way she treated me in the final month has really hit me for six and has left me bewildered. I do wonder now if she was the female equivalent of a player as she did tell me about her sexual history before her marriage (slept with the entire football team at uni, former bosses, etc) and obviously knows she is attractive and knows how to play men - she flirted with them in front of me on occasions and I obviously saw her whatsapp was full of random guys numbers that weren't saved as contacts a few weeks before she ended it with lots of 'xxxx's at the end. I think the most painful thing she did thinking back was when she was at my place one evening I really opened up to her by telling her about my brothers illness and what me and my parents went through when we had him sectioned, how it was the only time I'd seen my dad cry and how I had to deal with it all to be strong for them (I've never told anyone about all that before). Within 5 minutes she was leaning forward so I couldn't see who she was messaging but I caught a glimpse and it was an unsaved number of a guy with her sending a load of heart emojis.

Anyway, I've digressed. I really haven't been able to get over her in the 3 months since she ended it, I've obviously gone completely no contact in that time and I can think back to the final month where she really treated me appallingly but I just cannot process it logically and still think about and miss her a lot. I also am hurt that she hasn't reached out in that time which I know is for the best but doesn't stop me wishing she would. I am doing better than I was in the first few weeks after she ended it but nowhere near where I should be I think.

I have resumed dating through apps but it seems to have gone back to the cycle of getting loads of first dates but never a second until just recently. I went on a date with a girl I really liked last Thursday and we went out for dinner last night but I received the text I was expecting earlier today whereby she said she thought I was really lovely but couldn't see anything romantic there. It really has made me feel down and seems to have triggered all the thoughts about my ex ending things again and that I am unlovable which I guess is why I'm writing this post.

My ex ended it by text and her final text read 'I suppose I need to fancy someone more'. This has been going round my head pretty much since I received it, I think about it quite a few times a day and it now makes me think that because of her divorce, being on the rebound, etc that it just took her a few months longer than it takes normally to see that I am not an attractive or lovable person like most of the dates I go on seem to get to almost immediately. I also can't stop blaming myself for my ex ending it, I just feel that I became needy/insecure/jealous about her messaging other guys and kept calling her out on it so she lost attraction to me as I know how those traits are unattractive as a man.

Anyway back to the original point, I'm not really sure where to go from here. I think I'm a good person and live by treating others as I would want to be treated myself, I am probably a bit shy/introverted but have an extremely wide circle of friends, people always seem to want to be my friend but nothing more, I have tons of female friends but no one ever seems to just fancy me - I can't think of a single time in my life where I have actively been asked out or fancied by a female who wasn't going through some sort of emotional issue like a divorce. They all just think I'm 'sweet' or 'nice' and just for want of a better word, Friendzone me. I've seen women tell my other guy friends that a girl likes them and things like that but it's never happened to me.

The last few years have also been tough as being in my 30s I've seen pretty much all of my close friends get married, have kids and settle down whereas I just feel like a bit of a loser who can barely get past the first date.

I just wonder if I am hard wired and have that personality type that isn't attractive to the opposite sex. I know some men do go through their lives single and wonder if I should just accept that is my destiny. I've recently signed up to therapy in a kind of one last shot before I hit 40 to try and sort myself out but I'm not sure what else I can do.

Apologies again for such a long, self involved post and I understand if I don't get many replies but thank you so much to those of you that do take the time to read and reply. I appreciate there is a lot written down and it is a bit all over the place but I guess it kinda helped just putting it all down on paper if you know what I mean.

What a joker.

Sorry someone hijacked your thread rich.

@MrBuscuits I think you should buy a couple of Pot Noodles - branded ones, not cheap supermarket knock-offs, go for the real Bombay Bad Boys - and fill them both to the recommend line with water from the kettle. Then take them to the desk of the girl (sic) who has taken your job, perch on it with one hip, pass one to her and swirl your own plastic spork seductively in the other. It will be like those old movies where the guy lights two cigarettes and gives one to the girl. Then say "How YOU doin'?"

@richdeniro you are nothing like this joker.

Thanks @yeahcorvid, I don’t relate to him at all.

Shame he ruined my thread though as some of the advice and posts were really insightful.

@richdeniro You seem like a really genuine man but yes it does sound intense.

I say this as if a woman feels you fall for every woman or fall for her so quickly, that your feelings for her are superficial and not genuine. After all you can't love everything about someone after only knowing them a month, for example.

I do understand as I have a few male friends who are either very shy in front of women or have a bit of MrBus in them in that they are very jokey but without context so a woman who had known them years would get it but a woman they don't know would think they are being mocking/aggressive etc which is a shame as when you sit down with them one to one they are very lovely.

I think men get a real mix of messages of what a woman wants. But thing is women are individuals so she may want a joker but she may not. All you can do is be genuine.

Imagine you have a beat female friend - how would you want a man to approach her?

I think you're taking it very seriously when the first few dates should be fun and lighthearted. I understand why you arebut many women can pick up on this intensity.

In regards to @MrBuscuits I can totally see my autistic friend writing like this. But he would be joking, of course.

If you're real and are really like this Mr I'd say the same as I mentioned above. A stranger doesn't get your sense of humour. How does Car Lady know you were joking? She can't know you were being playful as she doesn't know your personality.

Best way is to be genuine and nice. Women aren't aliens, just behave normally around them.

Nosy my friends are guys. I'd have no idea what to do if one became so dogged to be honest.

Mr Biscuits please start your own thread as amusing as your are you’re spoiling someone else’s thread. Do you post on another forum as you have a very distinct writing style that sticks out.

Rich please don’t be put off posting, just gloss over Mr Biscuits posts.

It's getting a bit dull now

OP, this may or may not be the case with you and I don't want to offend at all. But, I'm always a bit suspicious of normal loving childhoods. I think unless there is a huge obvious problem, we all think we had normal loving childhoods, but I also think that it does no harm to examine or childhoods and our parents.

Do you still live near your parents? Do you see them frequently? Are you still friends with your friends from school or third level? Do you see them? Were you a confident child, a confident teen? Did you have any significant events that you wish you had had more as support with? Do you feel you have to live up to your parents' expectations? Do you feel overly responsible for them and your brother? Do you feel you can't get support from them because of your brother?

I just feel there are issues in your life you haven't addressed and you're not comfortable in your own skin. It's hard to be yourself when you're not sure who yourself is, and you haven't accepted yourself and learned to love yourself.

There's something very attractive about a person who knows who they are and are happy with who they are.

I could be completely wrong of course.

Will do. Thanks for the advice. Sorry Rich

Hi @apileofballyhoo

I guess my childhood was fairly normal but obviously fairly average. I mean I can't actually ever remember my parents arguing, they always worked hard for me and my brother so we could have as decent an upbringing that they could provide. Went on a couple of family holidays each year, lived in a leafy suburb, relatively decent state school, nice Christmases and the kind of mum that when my friends came over they loved her kindness and her way too.

As a child I was always shy and reserved but never not had good mates. In fact my closest friendship group is the friends I made between 14 and 18 really, we all still meet up regularly now and have remained great friends. I am also the bridge between them and my uni friends too and have introduced a few workmates along the way.

I definitely wasn't confident growing up and especially in those years - anxiety and fear of being called out to speak in front of class and that type of thing, one time still remember as if it were yesterday during my English GCSE's I had to stand in front of the class and read a passage from a book... started shaking horrendously and to this day am still embarrassed about it. The rejection of a girl I fell for a college before heading off to uni also still haunts me. I know a lot of my issues stem from here which I am hoping therapy can help address.

My brothers first episode wasn't until I was in my early 20s I guess when we had him sectioned. It was an extremely traumatic time and continued for a good 3-4 years as social services weren't particularly helpful - things like attacking my parents, the police coming round to restrain him and that kind of thing. Basically every families worst nightmare. I kind of felt embarrassed about it all and kept it all bottled up from my friends, most of them still don't know about it and I don't really talk to or tell anyone about it. When I had my initial consultation with the therapist last week she said it all sounded like so much for someone to go through so young as even though I was an adult, you are still relatively young in your mid-20s.

But you are right, I have never felt comfortable in my own skin and am sure despite trying to fake it, it shows through.

And yes I forgot to say, I do live near them... a couple of buses away so only 30-40 minutes. I'm in South London and they are a bit further out in Croydon. I see them at least every other weekend on a Sunday as my mum makes the best Sunday roast and take them out for dinner or something special every now and then like I took them to see a play at The Globe a couple of weeks ago.

My dad's health is failing too a bit at the moment though - Parkinsons and just the fact he is getting old so I am trying to get over to see them a bit more now.

Regarding the support from them - I don't reveal much how I am feeling too them as I want to put on a strong face to them as they have had to go through so much with my brother. To them I put on my strong and happy face like I do with pretty much everyone else. When my mum asks if I've got a girlfriend or something like that I just pretend that I am happy being single or something like that.

A couple of things spring to mind (apologies if already mentioned, but hopefully adds some weight):

• Coming across as desperate/not intriguing enough. Perhaps you could read some pick-up type sites, NOT to learn how to treat women badly - as it sounds like you have a generous heart - but to help you create that sense of mystery, intrigue and even uncertainty that will make them feel more of a romantic rather than platonic connection.
• Are you sure that everything in your dating profile is 100% accurate? You remind me a little of someone I went out with once who was 6 inches shorter than his description and had a less prestigious job. I didn’t mind either by themselves, but I felt misled.

Good luck.

I've actually read all those PUA type websites and guides for years in an attempt to learn something - definitely not the treating them badly type stuff as I couldn't do that anyway - but over the years I haven't really been able to make any of it work.

I definitely don't lie on my profiles or anything like that and all my photos are genuine.

I agree with the poster who suggested joining a rambling/walking group. They seem to operate as unofficial dating operations but without the expectations and weirdness of formal datingyou get to have a nice walk and get healthy even if there's no one you click with romantically. And please do identify a female friend you trust and ask her, if she could do a makeover of your entire mental/physical/emotional self, what she would change. This can be remarkably educational and helpful when done with love/affection. I was once told I came over as sarcastic and off-putting. I was horrifiedI hadn't meant to--and worked on that aspect of myself. I think/hope I am a better person for it, both in and out of partnerships.

Will have a look at the walking/hiking groups - might be fun to get out of London on the weekends too :)

I have so many close female friends and have asked them what's wrong with, asked them to be honest and promised they wouldn't hurt my feelings.

None can offer anymore insight than you guys have given. They all honestly think there is nothing wrong with me and cannot understand why I am single and have been for so long.

I actually asked my friend earlier today and she replied with this: chin up, you are a great person, lovely, smart and capable. It will all come good for you, and you deserve it! x

I asked the girl that I had the second date on Tuesday with if there was anything that I was doing wrong on dates and she gave me this very thorough answer: I genuinely think you are lovely as well and as I said, I really wish I felt differently because you're clearly a great guy. I think chemistry is such an individual thing and whilst I think people are crazy to expect butterflies, I do think that when you meet someone that you really connect with there is an anticipation and excitement and it feels like you just click. I don't think you can do anything in particular to create it or detract from it. I think I would just make sure that you're being your authentic self and try to show off as much of your personality as you can and talk as much as you can about the things in life that excite you. Because that excitement will come through. Don't feel like you need to move too quickly (either to set up a date or to, for instance kiss someone) as I think too quickly will likely cause people to run versus the scenario where the girl thinks things are moving too slow. That's all I can say really, but you really shouldn't change anything if you do feel like you're being yourself because the right person will come along and that connection will be there and will grow. I know how frustrating it can be, I've been in the other seat so many times...x

I think one thing that all of them might agree on is that I come across as 'too soft' and lack confidence though.

What does 'too soft' even mean? Vulnerability is good in a respectful relationship.

But she did say don't move too quickly. So take it slow, go for the walking thing - those are great because there's no pressure.

One thing that impressed me about dp was that he didn't try and maul me or touch me on the first date.
In fact he didn't make any attempt to kiss me until around date 4 which was our first full day together.
I liked that as id had other dates where men had been making arrangements about what would happen on future dates when it n fact I hadn't confirmed that I would see them again!
One even told me that he could accept me going away for a weekend as it was already booked before I met him, this was on our one and only date!

I've read both of your threads OP, and I have a DP, I'm a similar age (34) and have no baggage or children, neither does he.

We met online five years ago but one thing I remember from that time was that there was lots of intrigue and excitement - the anticipation to see him was off the scale and I think you're missing that genuine spark you get with someone. I also feel that you're putting too much emphasis on dating and a girlfriend to completely your life.

With your previous thread about your ex, for the fact it was a four month relationship your messages read like an angst ridden 14 year old girl talking to her friends about her first boyfriend. Should I text back, I want to text please stop me blah blah.

I think you need to delete all your online dating profiles and work on yourself first before a relationship will ever happen, and learn that you cannot force a spark or attraction. Also when I read about your American girl date I thought it was a bit odd/creepy you missed your tube stop just to kiss her more? It seems desperate.

Have a break, have therapy, work on yourself and join some real life social settings to meet new people. It's not your unloveable in the slightest, you just have the wrong attitude for online dating - I bet after a first date you would be the first to message and within a few days say you want to be exclusive or whatever, you need to chill out for want of a better word. And also grow up a bit after your previous thread and the way you over analyse the dates, girls will realise you are doing that.

I'll put on my amateur psychoanalysis hat here: the relationship you have with your mother seems superficial - she's not someone you feel comfortable confiding in and being 100% honest with. This is somehow carrying over into the uneasiness you bring to the table in potential relationships.

I know you say your childhood was 'happy' but superfically happy without deep nurturing and connection isnt going to give a child the kind of relaxed confidence you seem to be lacking. Before you do any more swiping or dating you need some therapy. I mean this kindly as im having therapy for family related matters myself.

If you join a walking group OP, go for one that is either for younger people or mixed ages. I've been to loads and a lot of them are mainly frequented by pensioners.

@SheeshazAZ09 I never knew that about walking groups! In London too?

Rich - look for a friend. Love is better with someone you like.

Did you watch love in the countryside? I quite liked the farrier - in that he seemed a decent chap zbut each time he was with one of the women he was way too quick to ask them whether they wanted to move to Norfolk. It came across as his wanting a relationship rather than them.

Be fussy, be choosy - it makes others feel more appreciated for themselves rather than just feeling like they’re ticking a box.

I'll put on my amateur psychoanalysis hat here: the relationship you have with your mother seems superficial - she's not someone you feel comfortable confiding in and being 100% honest with. This is somehow carrying over into the uneasiness you bring to the table in potential relationships.

I honestly don't think that's at all likely to be true otherwise every single person on Mn on the Stately Homes threads would be unhappily single. The OP sounds like me in that my role within my family likewise is to be the reassuring one who doesn't cause any worry or trouble my parents are both appalling worriers, and I've worked out over the years that not confiding in them about anything that's genuinely wrong in my life is much the best way for all of us. They get to think 'Oh, Barwell's always fine - nothing ever fazes her!' and I don't have to take phone calls where it's clear that they have worried about me 24/7 since whenever we last spoke and are in a state.

From what the OP says, he, like me, doesn't want to be worried over it's a common side-effect of having a troubled sibling. I have good friends that I confide in, and it's had no impact on my ability to love or to attract men I'm happily married with a child.

OP, I genuinely don't think there's anything at all 'wrong' with you, or with your childhood -- it's only that you're like an insomniac who is very anxious about not being able to fall asleep the way other people seem to do so easily and unproblematically, which of course contributes to not being able to fall asleep, which then turns into a pattern of not being able to fall asleep, so you no longer expect to be able to fall asleep. As with insomnia, you need to figure out a way to reset yourself.

In your case, it sounds as if you've fallen into a rather craven habit of expecting not to be good enough, as though dates are jobs way above your paygrade you're somehow nonetheless interviewing for in a hopeless way.

I agree that (cruelly) desperation is unattractive -- I know I've given off vibes of friendship-desperation at lonely times in my life, and it (a) makes people run a mile and (b) has made me not see the genuine potential friends who were in fact there all along.

Behave as though you are attractive, OP. Because it sounds as though you are, you just don't project it, and people aren't generally going to take the time to dig you out. I have a male friend who is very attractive late 40s silver fox but who has no idea he is. He scuttles about with his body language saying 'I'm a bit of a buffoon -- pass on, nothing to see here', and I honestly think that were he single, it would be easy to miss how good-looking he is.

This advice from Sethis is absolutely bang on and what I wanted to say:

"Find a middle ground between one night stands and fixating on acquaintances. There is no "THE ONE". If there is, the chance of you finding them among 3.5 billion people across a 5000 mile sphere is astronomical. Meet someone, develop an early friendship, then if you can see romantic possibilities, ask them directly if they'd be interested. If not, move on and don't look back. I know people who've slept with scores of women and are still single, and I know women who've married their first real boyfriend. Both are equally happy and unhappy at various times but for different reasons. What matters is that you respect yourself and have confidence that you are making the most of your life for YOU."

This this this, x 1000. Therapy is bound to help you although, as someone who has had a bit of therapy and been really helped by it, don't be surprised it it's difficult at times and you even want to throw in the towel. Resist the urge to walk away if it gets tough and instead talk things through with your therapist, whatever it is that has made you want to quit therapy. If you stick with it I think you'll find it really helpful and transformative.

Best of luck.