Am I unlovable as a man?

[richdeniro]

Apologies for what is likely to be a long post and perhaps may come across as needy and/or entitled, that really isn't my intention, nor to be self-pitying, I guess I've found that writing things down seems to be cathartic to an extent. The reason I am posting here as I am not a father or even in a relationship but I have posted here in the past and you all seem so lovely and offer such great support and advice plus it really does help getting a womans perspective on things. This post might also be a bit all over the place so please bear with me.

Basically I guess the last few months I feel I am a bit of a mess and just cannot get over a short-ish relationship I had earlier this year which I posted about here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3260864-Ex-wants-to-be-friends-but-Im-heartbroken

I know I was essentially used as a rebound for her and that I probably did deserve better but don't seem to be able to process that logically as I'll be totally honest and say it was the closest thing I've probably had to a relationship. The rejection and pain I have been feeling since she ended it has been like nothing I've ever felt before in all honesty and today I was rejected by another girl after our second date last night which seems to have dredged these feelings back up.

I guess I have been very unlucky in love over the years - (I'm 38 now) right back to when I was in a teenager at Sixth Form. Pretty much every person I have ever had a crush on from then until my mid 30s rejected me - they were usually college/uni-friends and work colleagues. I usually didn't tell them of my feelings for weeks or months and when I was rejected had built them up so my feelings were always pretty strong so it would always hit me hard and take months to get over, usually not helped by them getting into relationships with other guys fairly soon after. In 2014 it actually led to me getting CBT because I fell hard for a work colleague and just couldn't seem to get over her after she rejected me and then started seeing another work colleague. It helped to an extent but not enough and almost feels like the effects of that have now worn off.

I've never been the type of guy who can chat girls up in bars, clubs or in other situations hence why I always found myself looking at people in my life already hence the school/work things. I lost my virginity when I was 25 to a work colleague who was 40 and just out of a divorce, we had a FWB type thing going for around 6 months but eventually she ended it, left the company and met someone else. I was pretty hurt and it took me a good while to get over it. My next relationship was when I was 32 which wasn't really a relationship, I met a girl on a work conference abroad who was from Panama, we spent around 3-4 months doing the long distance Skype type thing but only spent 3 weeks in total together during that time, it obviously fizzled out.

And for the last 6 years I have basically been doing the online dating/apps thing. I have been on countless first dates in that time, off the top of my head I would say probably in the region of 50-100. A few led to a second date but most of the time I get the 'thanks but no thanks/no chemistry or spark' type message the next day if I am not ghosted. Very occasionally I end up in a one night stand type situation from them and that is really the only time I ever have sex.

Over the last few years this has led to my self esteem always being fairly low and I have come to the conclusion that I am unlovable. I don't think I am a bad looking person, go to the gym a lot, decent job, own my place, have hobbies and think I am all the types of things that a stable guy should be. I even give off the impression on the outside that I am happy go-lucky and always have a smile on my face but inside I am dying and fighting these thoughts that I am not good enough for anyone female. I also have to stay strong because my brother is a paranoid schizophrenic and so don't want my parents to think they have another son who is a mess and not normal - not helped by the fact that I am approaching 40 and still attend family events with no significant other surrounded by cousins of a similar age who are all settled. I know this really hurts my mum too as she just wants to see me happy.

I guess the last year has really bought it to a head because I met the woman who I linked to earlier in January who kind of showed me what it was like to love and be loved back. Obviously living alone can be quite lonely but having her in my life seemed to make nothing else matter and to me it felt so real. To have that kind of intimacy was a real first for me and sorry for the cheese but it was so romantic - we used to dance together in the living room to slow songs, fall asleep hugging each other all night, etc (sorry I won't go into anymore detail but you get the picture).

Her sudden change of heart and the way she treated me in the final month has really hit me for six and has left me bewildered. I do wonder now if she was the female equivalent of a player as she did tell me about her sexual history before her marriage (slept with the entire football team at uni, former bosses, etc) and obviously knows she is attractive and knows how to play men - she flirted with them in front of me on occasions and I obviously saw her whatsapp was full of random guys numbers that weren't saved as contacts a few weeks before she ended it with lots of 'xxxx's at the end. I think the most painful thing she did thinking back was when she was at my place one evening I really opened up to her by telling her about my brothers illness and what me and my parents went through when we had him sectioned, how it was the only time I'd seen my dad cry and how I had to deal with it all to be strong for them (I've never told anyone about all that before). Within 5 minutes she was leaning forward so I couldn't see who she was messaging but I caught a glimpse and it was an unsaved number of a guy with her sending a load of heart emojis.

Anyway, I've digressed. I really haven't been able to get over her in the 3 months since she ended it, I've obviously gone completely no contact in that time and I can think back to the final month where she really treated me appallingly but I just cannot process it logically and still think about and miss her a lot. I also am hurt that she hasn't reached out in that time which I know is for the best but doesn't stop me wishing she would. I am doing better than I was in the first few weeks after she ended it but nowhere near where I should be I think.

I have resumed dating through apps but it seems to have gone back to the cycle of getting loads of first dates but never a second until just recently. I went on a date with a girl I really liked last Thursday and we went out for dinner last night but I received the text I was expecting earlier today whereby she said she thought I was really lovely but couldn't see anything romantic there. It really has made me feel down and seems to have triggered all the thoughts about my ex ending things again and that I am unlovable which I guess is why I'm writing this post.

My ex ended it by text and her final text read 'I suppose I need to fancy someone more'. This has been going round my head pretty much since I received it, I think about it quite a few times a day and it now makes me think that because of her divorce, being on the rebound, etc that it just took her a few months longer than it takes normally to see that I am not an attractive or lovable person like most of the dates I go on seem to get to almost immediately. I also can't stop blaming myself for my ex ending it, I just feel that I became needy/insecure/jealous about her messaging other guys and kept calling her out on it so she lost attraction to me as I know how those traits are unattractive as a man.

Anyway back to the original point, I'm not really sure where to go from here. I think I'm a good person and live by treating others as I would want to be treated myself, I am probably a bit shy/introverted but have an extremely wide circle of friends, people always seem to want to be my friend but nothing more, I have tons of female friends but no one ever seems to just fancy me - I can't think of a single time in my life where I have actively been asked out or fancied by a female who wasn't going through some sort of emotional issue like a divorce. They all just think I'm 'sweet' or 'nice' and just for want of a better word, Friendzone me. I've seen women tell my other guy friends that a girl likes them and things like that but it's never happened to me.

The last few years have also been tough as being in my 30s I've seen pretty much all of my close friends get married, have kids and settle down whereas I just feel like a bit of a loser who can barely get past the first date.

I just wonder if I am hard wired and have that personality type that isn't attractive to the opposite sex. I know some men do go through their lives single and wonder if I should just accept that is my destiny. I've recently signed up to therapy in a kind of one last shot before I hit 40 to try and sort myself out but I'm not sure what else I can do.

Apologies again for such a long, self involved post and I understand if I don't get many replies but thank you so much to those of you that do take the time to read and reply. I appreciate there is a lot written down and it is a bit all over the place but I guess it kinda helped just putting it all down on paper if you know what I mean.

@MrBuscuits I’d say yes, you are investing too much. There was no need to go through the whole test drive charade. You could have just asked the woman out. No need to be panicky and sweaty about a complete stranger. If anything your obvious nervousness and lack of confidence will be off putting. And she wasn’t interested - no big deal, no reason it should knock your confidence just because one woman didn’t like you.

However, I do think you’re approaching it wrong if you’re looking at “potential friendship, maybe more”. Women don’t want to be friends with men they find attractive. And truthfully you didn’t want to be just friends with her. Approach it as a potential date, not a potential friendship.

MrBuscuits, all the reasons why women don't like you are very clear in your post, and it's not because they're too choosy or love a bad boy.

I expect that's not going to be enough for you to be going on, so let me explain just a few of them: if you think of women in terms of numerical scores, if you think it's ok to say so to a predominantly female forum, if you think a high enough score is required for a "potential friendship", if you pay £500 to try to get her into a car with you and make her uncomfortable at exactly the wrong moment, if you "try being super aggressive", if you think "girls love a bad boy", if you think earning over £45k means women can't possibly have a problem with you, if you spend a fortune on trying to learn to act like someone else...

...we can tell.

Amen, Ayn. Though I was actually assuming, perhaps charitably, that MrBuscuits's post was an elaborate joke...?

As PPs say, pointless liking someone when no clear signs they reciprocate. Ask them out early and move on if they’re not interested!

Long distance and FWB relationships similarly pointless when you’re looking for a relationship.

Do you have any friends of either sex who might give you honest feedback?

I did wonder that, Leland... but even if it is, I think it's actually quite an accurate description of that thought process and I know men like that exist.

I'm going to be honest but despite what women say I think a lot of us like a man's man if you get my meaning.
If a guy comes across to sensitive it can be confused with wimpish behaviour and if a man acts to feminine it can be a turn off.
This may not apply to you at all as I don't know you personally but there is some truth in the liking a bad boy thing.

I don't think women like bad boys as much as they like a man who can show them something new that's not familiar to them. The lure of the stranger, if you will.

I wouldn't describe my type as a "man's man", but it may be that the term says something different to me than it does to you.

@spikeycactus thanks for the advice. I don't wish to come across as the belligerent type, I have just had enough of being teased about being socially awkward, I saw all the guys in school do well, I did well academically and got into a well paid job, in fact I start a new job where I can make over £65k in the civil service. Can't say too much about that, but I hope there's some nicer girls at the offices in Victoria when I start next month! Just kidding, I did feel a lot more confident last weekend when I returned to the showroom in Chingford where I saw a blue Renault I liked even more the first one I put a deposit on. I had over £20k in cash that I had taken out (I asked the bank to put it in 50s ) and just by chance the young lady I saw was there and I said I was sorry if I made her feel uncomfortable, I guess some feel intimidated by powerful men... She laughed nervously, perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel! I know girls love a guy with a good sense of humour. I paid cash for the car, I made her count the money out, jokingly said, " there's more where that came from ", she said the Finance department will have to process the payment and I should have used a debit card as it would have been easier. I apologised again, and in my hurry, I forgot to collect the logbook (V5) so will have to travel across London to get it tomorrow so I can do my Parking Permit where I live.

The few friends I have say I wear my heart on my sleeve whatever that means (I have no tattoos so that's lost on me ) but when I asked a manager at work before my Exit Interview she said I should not charge about trying to impress people. I had a sheltered upbringing as parents were very particular about certain cultures and music. At 38 it's not easy but I figured if people like Tim Westwood can stay so youthful and get all the girls with his "Drill" music, then perhaps that's a way to build my confidence. My brother got married and moved out, is happy, with kids etc but I am sick of being the gooseberry at family gatherings and mum and dad joke about me being their carer and that I will never leave home. rich sorry to squat on your thread but I guess people can kill two birds with one brick or whatever the saying is and help me as well. Athouse parties, I was always the guy in the kitchen rather than chatting up girls when I was younger.

Talking of the "Drill" music, it is a little hard to get into, but it seems I need a Benz rather than the Renault to get the right type of girl... but I know that the music is not to be taken too literally. But I do like the 'f**k everyone else me against the world' swagger these guys have in their videos. The covering of the faces is a little disconcerting, though. I parked by a clearing on my way home so I could show any potential friend on these pages the car. Not to show off but I think a family car is a good investment, and any young lady will see I have my head screwed on. Sorry for the long post but how should I play it if I see her tomorrow when I get the V5 and second key?

OP, you sound a bit suffocating if I'm honest. Sometimes I wake up from a l dream about someone falling in love with (another, single) me and spend a little while wishing my husband was more romantic. However I think that in reality I would find romance (slow dancing in the living room, holding each other all night) really uncomfortable.

I really think you sound lovely. I don't think you need to wear your heart on your sleeve so openly - and not in the 'treat 'em mean' sense.

I'm female but of a similar age and can really empathise with this.

I agree with what others have said about building up your confidence - for your own sake, not to impress women. This will have the side effect of making you more attractive.

Since my marriage ended i've only been attracted to men and women who were completely unavailable - so im coming to the conclusion there i might be subconsciously sabotaging myself by only going for these types. Counselling is the way forward.

You sound like someone very worth loving and would make a great partner. You've had bad luck with this latest ex in a way, but also good luck because you've seen that someone can fall for you and you can have a romantic and intimate relationship.

The problem I think is neediness and low self esteem. You don't have to say anything for this to come across I'm afraid. It pervades everything.

For me neediness is a mega turn off - someone who wants to be in a relationship, wants to be loved, yet at the same time doesn't believe they deserve it. So I'd have to reassure and have the weight / responsibility of your self esteem. Way too much hard work.

My advice: switch off the bloody dating apps. Work on your self esteem. Get out there and get a hew hobby, meet new people, make new friends. Essentially fill out your life. Make it so this massive black hole that all your thoughts are getting sucked into is forced into something smaller because you're too busy having fun with your mates. Forget women / females / girls / laydees.

Once you've really got there, and your self esteem is back on track, it'll happen when you least expect it.

But you really do really have to work on yourself first. Can't stress that enough.

And i disagree that women 'don't like nice guys'. Since my marriage ended, all the men ive been attracted to have been lovely, sensitive, articulate, good with kids. Sadly, they've also all been married, but that in itseld should tell you something about whether 'nice guys' are in demand or not! They are all confident people though. Something anyone can work on.

@MrBuscuits you are trying way to hard. Anyone who refers to themselves as powerful is very far from it. Anyone who has to flash cash around screams low self esteem. No one gives a fuck what car you drive. You give her a 9/10. What score do you think she'd give you? Don't be an arsehole, and start treating women with some respect. That'll get you much further.

MyNameIsNotSteven thanks for the advice, I would never dream of suffocating anyone, the last thing I need is a criminal record ahead of a Disclosure Scotland check ahead of a new job... I can be intense and rush into things so I decided I will just get the V5 and key and be as discreet as possible. I might see if I can get some advice from an RL friend on how I can find that special someone. I have set a goal that by Christmas I've hooked up, so I ought to man up and get out there. Is OLD worth a look in or are there any decent clubs or holidays I should try?

Oh yes, women DO like nice guys. I'm married to one. I wouldn't look at a 'bad boy'

@eddielizzard good for you. Where did you meet your nice guy? Perhaps I need to move to that area so 'nice guys' like me are discovered
Thanks for the car advice too, I would not look good in a Merc G Wagon so I'll keep the Renault. I didn't want to come across as an arsehole as I do treat women with respect. It's just banter, as guys say

silly phone. Hit send too quick. I just imagine that's the banter guys have, I never got to go to that many parties but feel I'm past it at 38. I don't like flashing my cash around but I just thought at the car place cash would be better in case my card got skimmed. It was not to show off. Still I've said too much now, and I should let OP get a word in edge ways

Trouble with banter is it's so off-putting - fine with mates down at the pub but seriously goes down like a lead balloon with us laydees. And it's not about where you live, what car you drive, what phone you have, it's about who you ARE. Be kind and you'll get there in the end.

Decided to do something more useful. I can only be myself, I just wish I wasn't such a loser. I think I tried to create a lifestyle I wish I had. Thanks for the advice everyone. Sorry to kill the thread, it seems my abrasive persona does that to women....

Hey all,

Just thought I'd say thanks once again for all the replies and the kindness/empathy shown. You are all so lovely.

I have actually stopped with the falling for someone like a work colleague and then building them up thing, I stopped doing that in 2014 after my last work crush which resulted in doing CBT and essentially feeling awful for months on end in my job. The main reason for it was obviously because I realised it wasn't the way to go as many have you have already said, also though I decided then that I didn't want to fall for another work colleague again as it was horrible having to work with them everyday so kind of stop myself developing feelings for anyone I might work with.

I think many of you are right in that I probably am looking for that void to fill and just want a woman to love and have love me back - like once I get one everything will fall into place. I know that isn't healthy and don't know where that belief has come from but I do kind of know that I want someone I have a connection with which I guess I have only ever found a handful of times in my life - of course when I do think I have found a connection the girl usually just wants me to be her best friend (I've even been called a 'straight gay best friend' by one of them).

I imagine you are all right as well when saying that I perhaps come across as too needy and desperate. I wouldn't say I'm intense as that definitely isn't one of my personality traits, I'm a very laid back person and very easy-going but I guess when I do find someone I like perhaps subconsciously I will give out the vibes of wanting it to move quickly for example kissing them on a first date or sending one text too many after a date and being over-invested before anything has really developed. I wouldn't say that I talk about things on dates that would be off-putting either as some of you have alluded to, I think I am a fairly good conversationalist plus have had a fairly interesting life and am well travelled so can hold my own. I definitely don't go overboard about ex's and am aware that talking about them are bit no-no's early on and I 100% don't talk about marriage, kids, the future, etc on dates. I am also not superficial at all, I don't think of women in that way or rank them by numbers, I do see each and every person as exactly that - a person.

I do feel that I have a relatively fulfilling life, I have recently done a career change into a job that I like and is much more 'me'... the HR Director at work actually poached me from my finance job as she said I had so much empathy and kindness that I was being wasted in a non-people type role. I'm currently studying for my CIPD so I can really progress on that front. Obviously I have lots of mates and see them fairly regularly although most are now settled so I don't have any 'wingmen' type guys. I guess that it's the evenings and weekends when I am home alone that I get lonely and want someone just to watch a film with or have a chat on the phone with. I believe that this is why I have almost become a serial dater from dating apps in the last couple of months or so, just so I don't have to spend an evening sat by myself.

With the ex I know that I tried to force a relationship on her towards the end and probably drove her to begin looking elsewhere/meeting & texting other men so in a way feel responsible for scaring her off. I guess being lovebombed in the first few months led me to believe that was what she wanted (she was the needy and clingy one at the beginning) so I was talking about things like going on holiday with her. When I found out she was texting other guys I obviously didn't want to lose her and so my natural reaction was to try and fight for her but I now believe it probably had the opposite effect. Obviously I'd heard the phrase 'rebound' but had no clue what the actual characteristics of it were hence not picking up on any of the red flags or her sudden change of heart.

Someone mentioned that I have probably internalised all the rejection and I think that is true, well if I hadn't I guess I wouldn't have such low self esteem or have written this post. I really hope that therapy might be able to help me with that.

Again this post here might be a bit all over the place but I mainly just wanted to post it to say thanks again for everything. Having read all your thoughts I am going to give the therapy a real go and I've decided to lay off the dating apps for a month or two to see if I can really get over my ex. I will try some of the self esteem building exercises and see if I can try and sort out this needy/desperate vibe that I seem to give off.

I know loads of hideous men who have got partners. Also look at Prince William, however he ever managed to get anyone is beyond me.
So theres hope for all men.

Your coming across as being too needy and desperate for a relationship like everyone says. Be a lot cooler.

@rudgie47 very true... Boris Johnson manages to get a significant other despite being married... the one with the yellow teeth, can't remember her name but it does boil down to status, and money sadly. I may have the funds but the social ineptitude cancels it out. Been thinking about smartening up my image in general. I have always been cautious... so now's the time to be bolder. Will chop in the Renault for this Range tomorrow... will pay a hefty deposit and do Finance at around £700 or so per month. It's time to treat myself, the car is for me, not to impress anyone (like you guys dress in short skirts "for yourselves" I guess...) I will see if I can run with a better social circle, get some mates and network... I will force myself to do something a bit more upmarket like going to bars in Docklands on a Friday and see how the other half live...

I can only try, perhaps the banter of the lower orders doesn't work for me... hopefully more male friends may introduce me to others as time progresses. Thanks for the advice guys

Mrbuscuits I'm not sure if you're trolling in a fairly subtle manner, or if you do actually mean every word you say.

Trust me when I say that the vast majority of women look at a car and think "oh, it's a red one". The specs, brand, design and features are utterly irrelevant. Likewise your focus on money and "lifestyle". A lot of women find things like this completely meaningless and empty. What most women want in my experience is someone who genuinely listens to them, is sensitive to their moods, and is selfless with their time.

The fact that you hitting on someone resulted in her instantly going to hide in the breakroom, and her manager warning you not to harass his staff is indicative that something, somewhere is going incredibly badly wrong.

Imagine you're on a date, and you're both blindfolded. She can't see your car, or your watch, or your muscles, or your cash. How would you talk to her in order to encourage her to see you again? A relationship is not about property, or ownership. It's about emotional and intellectual connections. The rest is just frippery. If you want to discuss it further, by all means it might be worth opening a thread of your own.

To Rich: I'm glad you've moved away from the fixating on colleagues thing. You still seem keen to provide excuses for your ex though. To my mind there cannot be any justification for being with someone opening their heart and soul to you and you responding by texting other guys mid-convo. That's disgusting and inexcusable to me.

If counselling has helped you in the past then best of luck with it in the future. Don't give up on yourself or other people. If ugly ignorant and abusive people can find partners, it's absolutely possible for you to find someone too. I really back another poster who said that seeing the good in everything was the way to go. Even if you go on a date and she isn't interested, you can still count the following:

1. You were brave enough to ask her out
2. You didn't let previous mistakes stop you from trying again
3. You had a nice time with a lovely woman
4. You got some practice at being less stressed/needy/whatever
5. It was more fun than sitting in front of the tv for 4 hours
6. Hopefully the food/film/activity was interesting or fun or tasty and doing it with someone else was just an additional bonus

And so on. You're already ahead of a lot of other guys who cannot or will not ask women out, and you're not a giant cavernous arsehole, which automatically probably puts you ahead of a good third of men all by itself.

@sethis thanks for the perspective... I didn't realise women had no knowledge of cars, I didn't want to insult anyone's intelligence so thanks for explaining that first. I will keep the current 17 plate car, no need to get into more debt. I will take the young lady flowers for her trouble, and initial help in finding a car for me when I get the V5 and key. I guess I am just being sweet...

As for the Rolex, due to the high profile muggings from South London moped gangs, I stopped wearing it out and about. I guess it's the only way such people will make money which is sad. I genuinely wanted help, I can be "sensitive" if that's what is needed to close the deal, my therapist calls this behaviour "mirroring" where you feign interest for some time perhaps in a subject you don't really care for. A lot of guys do this, we are not being jerks, arses or any other insult thrown at us, it's just the way we are.

We are not raised to show emotion, "boys dont cry, nice guys finish last" is what I was taught, and it's a lot of bravado that gets us through. I never want to come across as needy as that's not a quality men should show. I just never managed to fit in during certain groups, perhaps it's a range of issues. In the gym I work out, but a lot of the girls there are already in relationships and I don't want to invade anyone's personal space as I'd have to find another gym if things went sour.

In my part of London (West) there's not much of a social scene, I thought of moving somewhere more exciting like Harrow or even South Norwood but mum and dad won't be happy if I told them. I drove through South London to Surrey where I took the picture of the car in the clearing. I do like photography so perhaps a photography class might be somewhere to meet 'The One'...

I know there's clichés like "when you stop looking, things will happen" but it's been more than 42 weeks since my last date which didn't go well. I thought things would have been okay, but she said she was popping to the loo and that was the last time I saw her. It was quite a big Pizza Hut and I didn't know the area well, I think I got ghosted... I asked work colleagues and all they did was laugh which pissed me off.
I have always been careful with money (aside from buying the car with 50s) and remember marking the bill clearly what I had and what she ate (wow, 3 refill drinks plus a Tropicana) just so there was no ambiguity. I may have come across a little bit aggressive but I thought I was being assertive and clear to the point. I just don't know why this keeps happening. I never got to go to that many parties where I could socialise, get numbers or pull someone when I was younger. I remember one party where I met this nice girl called Florence, she worked in a good job in the City, and I thought my boat had come in or whatever the phrase is, but I had to leave the party by 9:30 in order to get the train home because my parents wanted me back by 11:30. That was when I was about 28. I never got her number but I remember some next guy talking to her and I felt angry as I faced a lengthy walk to the Tube.

I don't want to take up space rich has posted here but I would like some pointers, it would save a few £££ on the counselling I have at the moment. Didn't take the Valium tonight as I wanted to wake up in time, beat the traffic so I can pass the young lady her gift when the car supermarket opens at 9. I can kill time in the McDonalds nearby and hopefully there's some carnations at the petrol station