Am I unlovable as a man?

[richdeniro]

Apologies for what is likely to be a long post and perhaps may come across as needy and/or entitled, that really isn't my intention, nor to be self-pitying, I guess I've found that writing things down seems to be cathartic to an extent. The reason I am posting here as I am not a father or even in a relationship but I have posted here in the past and you all seem so lovely and offer such great support and advice plus it really does help getting a womans perspective on things. This post might also be a bit all over the place so please bear with me.

Basically I guess the last few months I feel I am a bit of a mess and just cannot get over a short-ish relationship I had earlier this year which I posted about here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3260864-Ex-wants-to-be-friends-but-Im-heartbroken

I know I was essentially used as a rebound for her and that I probably did deserve better but don't seem to be able to process that logically as I'll be totally honest and say it was the closest thing I've probably had to a relationship. The rejection and pain I have been feeling since she ended it has been like nothing I've ever felt before in all honesty and today I was rejected by another girl after our second date last night which seems to have dredged these feelings back up.

I guess I have been very unlucky in love over the years - (I'm 38 now) right back to when I was in a teenager at Sixth Form. Pretty much every person I have ever had a crush on from then until my mid 30s rejected me - they were usually college/uni-friends and work colleagues. I usually didn't tell them of my feelings for weeks or months and when I was rejected had built them up so my feelings were always pretty strong so it would always hit me hard and take months to get over, usually not helped by them getting into relationships with other guys fairly soon after. In 2014 it actually led to me getting CBT because I fell hard for a work colleague and just couldn't seem to get over her after she rejected me and then started seeing another work colleague. It helped to an extent but not enough and almost feels like the effects of that have now worn off.

I've never been the type of guy who can chat girls up in bars, clubs or in other situations hence why I always found myself looking at people in my life already hence the school/work things. I lost my virginity when I was 25 to a work colleague who was 40 and just out of a divorce, we had a FWB type thing going for around 6 months but eventually she ended it, left the company and met someone else. I was pretty hurt and it took me a good while to get over it. My next relationship was when I was 32 which wasn't really a relationship, I met a girl on a work conference abroad who was from Panama, we spent around 3-4 months doing the long distance Skype type thing but only spent 3 weeks in total together during that time, it obviously fizzled out.

And for the last 6 years I have basically been doing the online dating/apps thing. I have been on countless first dates in that time, off the top of my head I would say probably in the region of 50-100. A few led to a second date but most of the time I get the 'thanks but no thanks/no chemistry or spark' type message the next day if I am not ghosted. Very occasionally I end up in a one night stand type situation from them and that is really the only time I ever have sex.

Over the last few years this has led to my self esteem always being fairly low and I have come to the conclusion that I am unlovable. I don't think I am a bad looking person, go to the gym a lot, decent job, own my place, have hobbies and think I am all the types of things that a stable guy should be. I even give off the impression on the outside that I am happy go-lucky and always have a smile on my face but inside I am dying and fighting these thoughts that I am not good enough for anyone female. I also have to stay strong because my brother is a paranoid schizophrenic and so don't want my parents to think they have another son who is a mess and not normal - not helped by the fact that I am approaching 40 and still attend family events with no significant other surrounded by cousins of a similar age who are all settled. I know this really hurts my mum too as she just wants to see me happy.

I guess the last year has really bought it to a head because I met the woman who I linked to earlier in January who kind of showed me what it was like to love and be loved back. Obviously living alone can be quite lonely but having her in my life seemed to make nothing else matter and to me it felt so real. To have that kind of intimacy was a real first for me and sorry for the cheese but it was so romantic - we used to dance together in the living room to slow songs, fall asleep hugging each other all night, etc (sorry I won't go into anymore detail but you get the picture).

Her sudden change of heart and the way she treated me in the final month has really hit me for six and has left me bewildered. I do wonder now if she was the female equivalent of a player as she did tell me about her sexual history before her marriage (slept with the entire football team at uni, former bosses, etc) and obviously knows she is attractive and knows how to play men - she flirted with them in front of me on occasions and I obviously saw her whatsapp was full of random guys numbers that weren't saved as contacts a few weeks before she ended it with lots of 'xxxx's at the end. I think the most painful thing she did thinking back was when she was at my place one evening I really opened up to her by telling her about my brothers illness and what me and my parents went through when we had him sectioned, how it was the only time I'd seen my dad cry and how I had to deal with it all to be strong for them (I've never told anyone about all that before). Within 5 minutes she was leaning forward so I couldn't see who she was messaging but I caught a glimpse and it was an unsaved number of a guy with her sending a load of heart emojis.

Anyway, I've digressed. I really haven't been able to get over her in the 3 months since she ended it, I've obviously gone completely no contact in that time and I can think back to the final month where she really treated me appallingly but I just cannot process it logically and still think about and miss her a lot. I also am hurt that she hasn't reached out in that time which I know is for the best but doesn't stop me wishing she would. I am doing better than I was in the first few weeks after she ended it but nowhere near where I should be I think.

I have resumed dating through apps but it seems to have gone back to the cycle of getting loads of first dates but never a second until just recently. I went on a date with a girl I really liked last Thursday and we went out for dinner last night but I received the text I was expecting earlier today whereby she said she thought I was really lovely but couldn't see anything romantic there. It really has made me feel down and seems to have triggered all the thoughts about my ex ending things again and that I am unlovable which I guess is why I'm writing this post.

My ex ended it by text and her final text read 'I suppose I need to fancy someone more'. This has been going round my head pretty much since I received it, I think about it quite a few times a day and it now makes me think that because of her divorce, being on the rebound, etc that it just took her a few months longer than it takes normally to see that I am not an attractive or lovable person like most of the dates I go on seem to get to almost immediately. I also can't stop blaming myself for my ex ending it, I just feel that I became needy/insecure/jealous about her messaging other guys and kept calling her out on it so she lost attraction to me as I know how those traits are unattractive as a man.

Anyway back to the original point, I'm not really sure where to go from here. I think I'm a good person and live by treating others as I would want to be treated myself, I am probably a bit shy/introverted but have an extremely wide circle of friends, people always seem to want to be my friend but nothing more, I have tons of female friends but no one ever seems to just fancy me - I can't think of a single time in my life where I have actively been asked out or fancied by a female who wasn't going through some sort of emotional issue like a divorce. They all just think I'm 'sweet' or 'nice' and just for want of a better word, Friendzone me. I've seen women tell my other guy friends that a girl likes them and things like that but it's never happened to me.

The last few years have also been tough as being in my 30s I've seen pretty much all of my close friends get married, have kids and settle down whereas I just feel like a bit of a loser who can barely get past the first date.

I just wonder if I am hard wired and have that personality type that isn't attractive to the opposite sex. I know some men do go through their lives single and wonder if I should just accept that is my destiny. I've recently signed up to therapy in a kind of one last shot before I hit 40 to try and sort myself out but I'm not sure what else I can do.

Apologies again for such a long, self involved post and I understand if I don't get many replies but thank you so much to those of you that do take the time to read and reply. I appreciate there is a lot written down and it is a bit all over the place but I guess it kinda helped just putting it all down on paper if you know what I mean.

It's people pleasing to a degree, because you don't feel like you want to worry others with your problems?

I do the same with my parents, recently the whole lot has come out though which has been hard for all of us.

I don't think that's so much people pleasing behaviour as being closed off. Is there anybody in your life that you're 'yourself' with - someone you feel really comfortable with and just tell them what you feel?

I have a couple of female friends who I tell everything too, they both know about me going to therapy, the whole deal with the ex, my brother and everything. I am very close to them.

Also my best guy mate too knows everything too.

Why don't you open up to people at work?

It's people pleasing to a degree, because you don't feel like you want to worry others with your problems?

Pretty much exactly that especially with my parents.

Why don't you open up to people at work?

Partly similar to the above answer of not wanting people to worry and also not wanting to bring my problems outside of work to work. Partly also the whole 'catastraphising' things, like thinking things that are completely unrealistic such as it might be portrayed as weak so I would make myself susceptible to being made redundant and then worrying about money/mortgage, etc.

Seems logical enough to me to avoid breaking down and blubbing like a baby over your Powerpoint presentation, but a word or two about your "trouble with my ex" over a pint after work wouldn't make people think you were incapable of doing your job, would it? Do other people tell you their problems? What would you think of them if they did?

Glad things are moving on for you richdeniro.
You sound like a really lovely, authentic person.
Hope you can resolve your confidence issues but if it's any consolation my OH is a quiet, kind and genuine type and to me that's hugely attractive.
I've always recoiled from the gobby, raconteur types that are generally perceived to be appealing because of their overt confidence.
I think self-acceptance and a calm authenticity is much more attractive. From the tone and content of your posts, I'd say you have an awful lot going for you.
Good luck with it all - hope you can find someone who deserves you (your ex sounded unpleasant)

Your ex saying you were "too nice" is a massive red herring, given what you've just disclosed. (Tommy Robinson! Hammer attack! FFS)

Other more rational people saying you're too nice, I wonder if this goes back to what you posted about having poor posture and a "don't look at me" vibe.

If you think about walking down the street, or around the office, in the style of someone you admire (so not some idiot with his hands on his hips Lord FlashHeart Style, just someone who you think "yeah, he's a confident fella but not overbearing") how does that make you feel?

'Lord Flash Heart Style'

BTW I saw a post from someone upthread saying that being moved to a HR position would be a turn off. IT'S NOT. Really. Unless you're going for option 1:

1. "I've been moved to HR because I wasn't tough enough to deal with the clients/colleagues/pressure in X dept"
2. "I recently accepted a job in the HR department and I'm really excited about it. I love helping people and resolving disputes, plus they're going to sponsor me for some qualifications in the field. I'm so glad I'm going to be working 1-2-1 with people instead of just [speaking to people on the phone/going through the motions/following the script/staring at numbers] all day."

Honestly, working in HR can be TOUGH. It's not an easy option at all. It wasn't my field in civvy life and it wouldn't have suited me. (Gimme those spreadsheets though!)

@Threewheeler1 Woof!

@NotTheFordType I'd be quite interested in doing the Lord Flashheart thing actually :) I think sometimes I do walk with confidence, I guess not as often as I'd like or in the social settings I would like. I often just prefer to fade into the background I guess which I know does no good when trying to meet someone.

With regard to the HR thing, it is definitely number 2. I never knew what I wanted to do career wise, hence falling into finance after uni but now I have made the leap into HR I think I have found my calling. In the six months since I made the jump I have already been promoted to manager level, am drawing up company policies and received a 10k payrise so must be doing something right! Even though I am shy and introverted everyone at work tells me how amazing I am at the role and how much of a people person I am. I saw the post you referred to as well and I definitely did not move into HR because I am weak.

HR is HARD. Working in that area means doing some shitty things sometimes. It isn't an easy role to do.

Love the idea of Lord Flashheart thrusting his way down the street!

HR isn't an easy job! I know in some companies and cases it can mean being useless/just moving paper around but in my company for example there are quite a few HR people and each one has a specialty and quite a lot of work & people to manage. They love jargon though

@richdeniro I know you care about your ex but don't take her impressions of you to heart. They sound mean and tell you more about her than you. She's not some judge and jury passing objective judgment about you, she's pulling you down to make herself look and feel better. Plenty of women appreciate niceness and consideration

Thanks @AsleepAllDay, I try not too and am slowly realising her words did have a casual cruelty in them plus I wouldn't have so many friends if I was as bad as she says. She did say some nice things too and even in the weeks before ending it told me I was her best friend, that she had never felt cared for before in the way that I cared for her and that I was the most amazing cuddler she had ever experience. When I called her out on messaging other guys the first time and she tried to excuse it she also said that she loved how genuine I was, that I was amazing and that I was her rock. I realise that these could just have been words designed to keep me on the hook and she knows how to play men but I guess I should take comfort in that.

Why women choose dickheads over real gentlemen I will never know, keep doing what you are doing because that determines the fake from the real girls, you are just getting rid of the ugly.

Rich (have been on the thread under a previous username), your last reply illustrates part of your problem. Quite apart from being obsessed with an ex who, frankly, sounds awful and wasn’t that nice to you, you seem over-reliant on ways in which other people have defined your personality.

So what if your ex thought you were God’s gift or Lurch from the Addams family? You were with her for about three months in total as far as I can gather — no one becomes anyone’s best friend in that time period. Stop defining yourself according to her judgement of you, good or bad. Surely the fact that she was chatting to an EDL type and a man who did prison time for a hammer attack (!!!) during your relationship suggests her judgement of character and worth is skewed, to put it mildly?

What I’m saying is that if I were looking for a new relationship, I’d want someone who already had a strong sense of his own identity, and who wasn’t thinking he was ‘ a good cuddler’ or ‘too nice’ or ‘genuine’ purely because his ex or therapist had told him so.

I don’t think any normally sane adult wants to go out with someone who is wax waiting for an impression.

I agree with @sondheimFan 100%

Counselling will help you identify why you gave so much of your self worth on this woman's opinion. I can understand why to a certain extent, if you have spent years wondering what is 'wrong' with you, because you haven't lived up to societies ideal. I did the same for years and felt much shame, and became depressed because of it.

I have been able to slowly let that go with counselling, and I now know my attributes. In place of that insecurity is a calmness and a much better sense of self, without other people needing to bolster me, or clarifying who I am. that's something that you need to be able to do yourself and is also something very attractive in a person.

Look up, external locus of evaluation, you might recognise some of that in yourself.

counsellingni.co.uk/2014/08/locus-of-evaluation-and-mindfulness-a-recipe-for-increasing-self-esteem/

over-reliant on ways in which other people have defined your personality
yes; e.g. you've eagerly accepted the idea that you might be "too nice", but then when I go into the details of what "too nice" might include, actually you realise it doesn't sound like you at all. Tbh it sounds like you've thought of the ways in which you are nice, and then assumed that must be somehow bad.

You've thought a lot about how you can change to be like what women want. But what kind of woman do you want, ideally? What would she have to be like to get on with you? What would she have to do to pass muster?

Thanks guys, I know I have a lot of work to do on myself but hopefully will get there. On another note I got the feedback from the MN poster about the pretend date that we went on which is pretty positive:

• Very well presented, polite, respectful
• Lovely smile, enthusiastic, kind
• Put me at ease and made me feel comfortable - a genuine nice guy
• Listened well and asked interesting, intelligent questions - e.g. most exotic place visited
• Good conversationalist
• Occasionally could have let me speak for a little longer when I seem enthusiastic about a topic - but not a big issue and already much better than most men
• You struck a good balance between expressing opinions and being too overbearing (e.g. on annual leave, flexible working, holiday destinations, etc.)
• Hobbies are good but seem pretty standard and perhaps more difficult for some women to relate to
• Are there any evening or day classes that interest you? Cooking, crafts, a new language? Not to meet women but to discuss more unusual and abstract/intellectual topics
• Cultural visits? Can be good if that interests you
• Hobbies may also make it harder to secure a second date; easier to go to an art gallery or museum than to football/cinema
• What about you would surprise people?
• But don’t try to change who you are... you are great

Aaargh, rich, you're doing it again, only this time it's a (probably well-meaning) Mumsnetter from your pretend date whose opinions on you you are taking as gospel! As far as it's possible to judge from an internet thread you are a nice man whose only problem is that you are so desperate for a relationship you see yourself as permanently auditioning to be someone's Mr Right, and it makes you come across as personality-less and over-eager to please.

I appreciate that this Mumsnetter meant well, but I think the set of notes on your pretend date are (a) only reinforcing your tendency to be over-eager to please to the point of blandness and (b) in themselves quite mad. Did you really discuss 'annual leave and flexible working' on a date? Please tell me you are not considering trading in your existing hobbies for ones women you might date might find more 'relatable'???

And exactly this, as raven said:

You've thought a lot about how you can change to be like what women want. But what kind of woman do you want, ideally? What would she have to be like to get on with you? What would she have to do to pass muster?

I personally would love a football date!! i follow a midlands team in the championship and travel the hour up there alone (scarf flying madly out the window on the m40 and me singing away). Am again single since yesterday so got to pull myself up and start planning how to have fun being single again. That was then,it didn't work,try and tilt my thinking to be positive and everything will work out x

My last bf liked motorcycle racing and the current one is a big football fan. He's German so I got him a translation of the Fever Pitch, which he hadn't heard of. I'm only very mildly interested in football - will watch the World Cup as a fake fan for one summer. He is totally unapologetic about being a football fan - wouldn't bore me with it but talks about it as one of his interests. I now know what a derby is :) Previous bf introduced me to Valentino Rossi. These are their interests, so I am happy to learn a few things I didn't know (within limits!) and thus get to know them. If they wanted to spend their entire time watching their sports, or if I absolutely hated sports, we'd have been incompatible, and would have both looked for someone else. If either had been so characterless as to pretend to have different interests just for me, I wouldn't have touched either with a bargepole :)

I'd reiterate what others are saying that you are spending way too long analysing who you are and what you need to change instead of being just you. If nothing else, your Mumsnet date shows that you are just fine ... nothing needs changing.

What I would look at is-

1. increase the upper age limit on your online dating profile - it's currently set at only five years older than you which apart from being unnecessarily restrictive, is signalling that you are not her open minded.
2. if you fancy someone, don't spend months idolising and fantasizing about them. Make small talk, get to know them, ask them out for coffee or something low-key early on.
3. Try to add in some sociable hobby ... dancing/ice skating/conservation/language class.

4. choose women with a similar level of intelligence