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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Am I unlovable as a man?

205 replies

richdeniro · 18/09/2018 22:19

Apologies for what is likely to be a long post and perhaps may come across as needy and/or entitled, that really isn't my intention, nor to be self-pitying, I guess I've found that writing things down seems to be cathartic to an extent. The reason I am posting here as I am not a father or even in a relationship but I have posted here in the past and you all seem so lovely and offer such great support and advice plus it really does help getting a womans perspective on things. This post might also be a bit all over the place so please bear with me.

Basically I guess the last few months I feel I am a bit of a mess and just cannot get over a short-ish relationship I had earlier this year which I posted about here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3260864-Ex-wants-to-be-friends-but-Im-heartbroken

I know I was essentially used as a rebound for her and that I probably did deserve better but don't seem to be able to process that logically as I'll be totally honest and say it was the closest thing I've probably had to a relationship. The rejection and pain I have been feeling since she ended it has been like nothing I've ever felt before in all honesty and today I was rejected by another girl after our second date last night which seems to have dredged these feelings back up.

I guess I have been very unlucky in love over the years - (I'm 38 now) right back to when I was in a teenager at Sixth Form. Pretty much every person I have ever had a crush on from then until my mid 30s rejected me - they were usually college/uni-friends and work colleagues. I usually didn't tell them of my feelings for weeks or months and when I was rejected had built them up so my feelings were always pretty strong so it would always hit me hard and take months to get over, usually not helped by them getting into relationships with other guys fairly soon after. In 2014 it actually led to me getting CBT because I fell hard for a work colleague and just couldn't seem to get over her after she rejected me and then started seeing another work colleague. It helped to an extent but not enough and almost feels like the effects of that have now worn off.

I've never been the type of guy who can chat girls up in bars, clubs or in other situations hence why I always found myself looking at people in my life already hence the school/work things. I lost my virginity when I was 25 to a work colleague who was 40 and just out of a divorce, we had a FWB type thing going for around 6 months but eventually she ended it, left the company and met someone else. I was pretty hurt and it took me a good while to get over it. My next relationship was when I was 32 which wasn't really a relationship, I met a girl on a work conference abroad who was from Panama, we spent around 3-4 months doing the long distance Skype type thing but only spent 3 weeks in total together during that time, it obviously fizzled out.

And for the last 6 years I have basically been doing the online dating/apps thing. I have been on countless first dates in that time, off the top of my head I would say probably in the region of 50-100. A few led to a second date but most of the time I get the 'thanks but no thanks/no chemistry or spark' type message the next day if I am not ghosted. Very occasionally I end up in a one night stand type situation from them and that is really the only time I ever have sex.

Over the last few years this has led to my self esteem always being fairly low and I have come to the conclusion that I am unlovable. I don't think I am a bad looking person, go to the gym a lot, decent job, own my place, have hobbies and think I am all the types of things that a stable guy should be. I even give off the impression on the outside that I am happy go-lucky and always have a smile on my face but inside I am dying and fighting these thoughts that I am not good enough for anyone female. I also have to stay strong because my brother is a paranoid schizophrenic and so don't want my parents to think they have another son who is a mess and not normal - not helped by the fact that I am approaching 40 and still attend family events with no significant other surrounded by cousins of a similar age who are all settled. I know this really hurts my mum too as she just wants to see me happy.

I guess the last year has really bought it to a head because I met the woman who I linked to earlier in January who kind of showed me what it was like to love and be loved back. Obviously living alone can be quite lonely but having her in my life seemed to make nothing else matter and to me it felt so real. To have that kind of intimacy was a real first for me and sorry for the cheese but it was so romantic - we used to dance together in the living room to slow songs, fall asleep hugging each other all night, etc (sorry I won't go into anymore detail but you get the picture).

Her sudden change of heart and the way she treated me in the final month has really hit me for six and has left me bewildered. I do wonder now if she was the female equivalent of a player as she did tell me about her sexual history before her marriage (slept with the entire football team at uni, former bosses, etc) and obviously knows she is attractive and knows how to play men - she flirted with them in front of me on occasions and I obviously saw her whatsapp was full of random guys numbers that weren't saved as contacts a few weeks before she ended it with lots of 'xxxx's at the end. I think the most painful thing she did thinking back was when she was at my place one evening I really opened up to her by telling her about my brothers illness and what me and my parents went through when we had him sectioned, how it was the only time I'd seen my dad cry and how I had to deal with it all to be strong for them (I've never told anyone about all that before). Within 5 minutes she was leaning forward so I couldn't see who she was messaging but I caught a glimpse and it was an unsaved number of a guy with her sending a load of heart emojis.

Anyway, I've digressed. I really haven't been able to get over her in the 3 months since she ended it, I've obviously gone completely no contact in that time and I can think back to the final month where she really treated me appallingly but I just cannot process it logically and still think about and miss her a lot. I also am hurt that she hasn't reached out in that time which I know is for the best but doesn't stop me wishing she would. I am doing better than I was in the first few weeks after she ended it but nowhere near where I should be I think.

I have resumed dating through apps but it seems to have gone back to the cycle of getting loads of first dates but never a second until just recently. I went on a date with a girl I really liked last Thursday and we went out for dinner last night but I received the text I was expecting earlier today whereby she said she thought I was really lovely but couldn't see anything romantic there. It really has made me feel down and seems to have triggered all the thoughts about my ex ending things again and that I am unlovable which I guess is why I'm writing this post.

My ex ended it by text and her final text read 'I suppose I need to fancy someone more'. This has been going round my head pretty much since I received it, I think about it quite a few times a day and it now makes me think that because of her divorce, being on the rebound, etc that it just took her a few months longer than it takes normally to see that I am not an attractive or lovable person like most of the dates I go on seem to get to almost immediately. I also can't stop blaming myself for my ex ending it, I just feel that I became needy/insecure/jealous about her messaging other guys and kept calling her out on it so she lost attraction to me as I know how those traits are unattractive as a man.

Anyway back to the original point, I'm not really sure where to go from here. I think I'm a good person and live by treating others as I would want to be treated myself, I am probably a bit shy/introverted but have an extremely wide circle of friends, people always seem to want to be my friend but nothing more, I have tons of female friends but no one ever seems to just fancy me - I can't think of a single time in my life where I have actively been asked out or fancied by a female who wasn't going through some sort of emotional issue like a divorce. They all just think I'm 'sweet' or 'nice' and just for want of a better word, Friendzone me. I've seen women tell my other guy friends that a girl likes them and things like that but it's never happened to me.

The last few years have also been tough as being in my 30s I've seen pretty much all of my close friends get married, have kids and settle down whereas I just feel like a bit of a loser who can barely get past the first date.

I just wonder if I am hard wired and have that personality type that isn't attractive to the opposite sex. I know some men do go through their lives single and wonder if I should just accept that is my destiny. I've recently signed up to therapy in a kind of one last shot before I hit 40 to try and sort myself out but I'm not sure what else I can do.

Apologies again for such a long, self involved post and I understand if I don't get many replies but thank you so much to those of you that do take the time to read and reply. I appreciate there is a lot written down and it is a bit all over the place but I guess it kinda helped just putting it all down on paper if you know what I mean.

OP posts:
NobodyToVoteForNow · 20/09/2018 21:59

Well, i'm a long-time stately homer (under various names) and like me, many of us (although certainly not all) are unhappily single, finding it hard to make those intimate connections. And having a brother with serious mental illness has to be a red flag that something was amiss at home when they were growing up. All I'm saying is that I don't think the OP has anything to lose by exploring his upbringing with a professional. Reading 'Toxic Parents' so many of those stories start with 'i had a normal happy childhood' and it's only through the therepeutic process that the big picture starts to emerge. Putting on a brave face doesn't seem to have helped him so far.

lonelyatchristmas · 20/09/2018 22:08

OP you are the male version of me.. I totally get what your taking about.. everything you've said I could've written.
The only Singleton in my group and they all want to spend there nights with partners or kids and have no time for there single friends so I end up spending every night sitting at home alone..I've tried the OLD as well hit have given up as I only seem to attract the ones looking for a quick shag.. met my last bf through OLD and things were going fantastically until basically he got what he wanted and then went cold..

Purpleisthenewblue1 · 20/09/2018 22:29

You sound self aware and thoughtful (quite rare IMO) I’m sure you will meet someone soon Flowers

Apileofballyhoo · 20/09/2018 22:34

Wow, there's a lot of pain and unresolved grief right there, OP. It also seems you are quite alone in that you don't necessarily tell people your worries.

I honestly think you need to go for a bit of counselling on it.

MrBuscuits · 20/09/2018 22:39

I did put a thread out but it disappeared. In all honesty don't overthink things, I am trying to do this every day, not everyone is in a couple. Best thing to do is find a hobby to fill the time and mates IRL you can chill with. I went with a couple of mates on holiday to LA, had a great time, met some nice people, including very outgoing, genuinely friendly girls, I viewed them as friends and it made things not as tense. Having good mates to bounce off of, or even a listening ear... I related woes of my love life to a mate and after a while found I was even boring myself with being overly negative. Having to deal with any relatives with health issues is tough as well, kudos to you. OLD is no match for networking thru mates and you never know where things will lead... it is a tired cliché but it must ring true.

Having read countless threads on MN it is dreadful if you are stuck in the wrong relationship and are desperate to get out of it...

Sorry to clog your thread Rich but before I leave I thought I would post something worthwhile and of value. Take care, hope things sort out. Everyone is loveable, out of 65 million in our country there's tons who must think so, you just haven't met them yet :)

richdeniro · 21/09/2018 03:04

@Devilishpyjamas It'a all I've ever looked for - I've always wanted a best friend, I'm the least superficial person you will ever meet, every girl I've actually fallen for is someone I've loved because of the way I've clicked with them rather than their looks or anything like that.

It's why I'm so gutted about losing my ex because I really felt we did have a connection as best friends rather than just something else. One time she even said to me that she didn't think it was possible to have a boyfriend who was also a best friend.... although now I guess that was just her rebound phase talking.

@Bardwell Absolutely amazing post that really resonated with me... My parents are the biggest worriers in the world, 99.9% of the reason I don't tell them anything or let them know I am feeling down is because they already have far too much on their plate than to worry about me... your post is pretty much spot on, I just don't want them to think that anything fazes me and that I am living a decent life. I just don't want to put them through anymore worry or feeling hurt because of me.

Everything else you say in your post is pretty much spot on too, the whole 'nothing to see here' kind of mentality I have and that I don't project anything other than my awful body language. Wow your post is basically who I am... this guy who has so much love to give but cannot because of this hopeless state I am in.

OP posts:
richdeniro · 21/09/2018 03:10

Apileofballyhoo I don't mention any of my worries to pretty much anyone, I have a few close female friends who are aware of thing things I have gone through and usually spill my guts once in a while to them on whatsapp or email to tell them what I've been going through but they obviously know it's something that is hard for me and don't ever really come to me to open up or anything more.... maybe they don't want to deal with it themselves which is fair enough, they probably have their own stuff to deal with and I wouldn't want to burden them either with my stuff.

OP posts:
richdeniro · 21/09/2018 03:20

But at the same time they know I'm an introverted guy so understand that 99.9% of the time I probably dont want to open up to them if you know what I mean.

It's why it hurts so much losing my ex who I know many of you can't understand why I am cut up so much about losing as it was such a short relationship but to me she meant the whole world because she was someone I did feel I could open up to even though she eventually treated me like dirt. She always told me that she would be there for me and that I was her best friend, etc, etc so that's why I've felt the pain I have I guess with losing her, as it feels I haven't just lost a lover but also a best friend. Even though now I realise that she was probably just infatuated by me due to the rebound/fling phase I guess and then eventually lost interest.

OP posts:
Devilishpyjamas · 21/09/2018 06:23

I didn’t mean look for a best friend to become a relationship. I meant stop looking for a relationship. Instead look at how you can make friends with people (of both sexes). This year I have met new people on (adventurous) walking groups, fitness classes, art classes (I am crap at art - doesn’t matter), a longer course. And that’s just me following interests between a family & busy life. You are much more likely to find a meaningful relationship if it grows without pressure.

You said CBT helped in the past? Maybe have some more sessions. It sounds as if you are going over and over reasons why your ex left and it doesn’t really matter. She doesn’t want to be in a relationship with you & that’s all that matters. I get it (what you are doing) because when my first ‘serious’ relationship ended I wasted about 2 years going over it. And part if that was because I desperately wanted a deep relationship. So I get why you are doing that. But you do have control over it. I know I would never be in that situation again - largely because I now value myself.

I’d really start just doing what you enjoy tbh & stop OLD for a while. Put that time into trying new activities etc and giving your head a rest from constantly thinking about being in a relationship.

AsleepAllDay · 21/09/2018 06:24

@richdeniro you're fixating on your ex even though objectively she was not a very nice person. I'm doing the same and honestly it's because you know you were with her and she's a 'safe' object of desire or fantasy.

But really she was not going to give you the loving real relationship you want. You have to let her go

NobodyToVoteForNow · 21/09/2018 06:37

I'm wondering why you haven't replied to anyone who has suggested counselling?

Spilling your guts on social media and expecting a potential girlfriend to be the one you can tell all your worries to is no substitute for a trained professional whose job it is to try and help you sort out those painful feelings. I think the 'nice guy' bit on here is reserved for those who tell you what you want to hear.

AlmaGeddon · 21/09/2018 07:25

This is a bit like the many threads on MN from people who don't have any friends.
They fall over themselves to be 'nice' and 'kind' and 'thoughtful' which I have put in commas because what you want from a friend is mostly, imv, a good laugh and very occasionally a shoulder to cry on. Someone fussing over you, sympathising deeply over your problems etc can be wearing. And boring. I am hopeless at making friends but what does help is doing something eg walking rather than having a coffee and intimate chat. Perhaps it is the same with other relationships like the ones you are seeking. The fact you have been moved to a job where your listening and empathy skills can be used make you sound a bit of a wimp to me. Only attractive to self pitying types who want someone to agree with them over their sorrows.
I would go for some counselling, discuss the relationship with your DPs, you seem to not be yourself with them as you are being 'nice'. And try to work out what makes you happy, what you would really enjoy in life (a counsellor suggested to me what I enjoyed as a child). Finding a partner only makes you happy if you find the perfect one. I would stop doing online dating, too intense imv, meet someone through walking, biking, voluntary work, art, etc. That way you know them reasonably well before you get to any dating stage. And they know you so you won't be immediately into an affair that will distress you when it finishes. I don't think you know yourself, you think you must have someone else to make you happy but that isn't really the case, better you are happy with yourself and your life first, then find someone who can add to that.

Devilishpyjamas · 21/09/2018 07:42

better you are happy with yourself and your life first, then find someone who can add to that

This

ravenmum · 21/09/2018 07:44

Nobody he's doing counselling, mentioned it a couple of times.

I just don't want them to think that anything fazes me and that I am living a decent life. I just don't want to put them through anymore worry or feeling hurt because of me.
Sweetheart, your parents will worry about you whatever you do ...
Your mum will probably be worrying that you are not opening up to her and are bottling it all up. She might be wondering if you're gay and feeling sad you won't tell her. She might be worrying that you have serious mental health problems too, and are trying to hide it.

I guess this is because you are the non-problematic brother; that's your role? Was that always the way as you grew up?

In any case, this is what the above poster meant about you having a superficial relationship. You could get a whole lot closer to your parents if you opened a window to your inner world.

ravenmum · 21/09/2018 08:04

I had to stand in front of the class and read a passage from a book... started shaking horrendously and to this day am still embarrassed about it.
I was a female version of you at that age. I remember incidents like this.
Having children helps a bit, as you stop seeing yourself as the inept idiot who should have been better, and see yourself from outside, from the point of view of a caring adult looking at a child. I can look back now and think "Gosh, I was so young, and shy, no wonder I was scared" and forgive myself. In counselling I went over this and found that actually there were good reasons for my shyness - we moved about a lot so I never had long-term friends, for example - and I know it is not some sort of innate, permanent terrible flaw.

You too need to forgive yourself. Don't be embarrassed about young you. If you travelled back in time and spoke to him as an adult, how would you explain to him that he is not rubbish?

You describe yourself as introverted - I would have done the same thing until a few years ago. But actually, I blossom in company if I feel accepted. That's not really introverted, it's just shyness. How about you?

MrBuscuits · 21/09/2018 17:05

I don't mention any of my worries to pretty much anyone, I have a few close female friends who are aware of thing things I have gone through and usually spill my guts once in a while to them

You might do well to speak to these RL friends, I had a chat with my mates on how to improve my situation. If I get ignored on this thread like Theresa May was at the recent EU Summit, so be it... but it's best to look forward to what good could come in future than looking back at a relationship which ended on her terms as she moved on to the next. Perhaps assertiveness training could help, or networking thru male friends find a hobby, set up a YouTube channel, Insta account and get some followers... go for a drive somewhere, catch a film... it may help pass the time...

Deadringer · 21/09/2018 17:28

Op you are obviously attractive and a bit of a catch as you manage to get a lot of interest/dates on OLD. you have been given some great advice on here especially from people in a similar position and I don't have anything to add except to wish you all the luck in the world and to suggest that you look for 'miss right now' rather than 'miss right'. Eventually you will find the right person, and in the meantime, there is nothing wrong with being single.

crunchtime · 21/09/2018 17:55

this isn't going to help you but i have a theory.
I think you NEED to have a relationship early on-before the age of 20 or so and have sex before then. You need to practise relationships when there isn't a lot of value in them if that makes sense?
So if you are 15 and in a relationship and it all goes to shit,[as it will] it's devastating but you get over it relatively easily and quickly. There is not as much invested in it as there is when you are older and you've practised being with someone, learning how to treat someone, how to react etc

The fact that you found reading aloud at school so difficult makes me think that you have really low self confidence and that's where the problem lies.

CharlotteCollinsneeLucas · 21/09/2018 18:37

I got to the age of 40 without ever feeling a spark with somebody who thought the same about me. I'd had relationships, and the men I'd been with had been important to me and I'd loved them, but no spark.

So I'd made up my mind I was going to enjoy being single and do it well.

And then I met someone, through a common interest, got to know him a bit and couldn't stop thinking about him. We've been together nine months now. He's ten years older than me, and feels the same as me: that this is the first time there's been chemistry with someone who's reciprocated the interest.

So there you go. It could still happen. Believe that, and get on with having a good life in the mean time. The fact that my BF was getting on with his life quite happily, bit looking for someone to complete him, was one of the (many) things that attracted me to him.

CharlotteCollinsneeLucas · 21/09/2018 19:01

Not looking, I mean.

tierraJ · 21/09/2018 20:17

At least men don't have a biological clock ticking, which at 42 is my major problem.

Was unwell for most of my 30s so didn't do much dating. I had planned to get married & have kids but obviously couldn't happen.

I sometimes feel sorry for myself and think I'm unlovable too but I did date a man recently who liked me a lot & we had a lot in common... he turned out to be married sadly so I finished it.

Yesterday I saw a friend's baby who was gorgeous & thought its my fault for not finding a decent relationship to have a baby in (I couldn't cope alone for health reasons) but OLD is just nerve wracking isn't it.
I keep thinking I'll lose a bit more weight before I try OLD....

There are decent men at work but also lots of prettier younger women.

Basically I'm trying to say it's not only men who feel unlovable at times. You have to learn to like & be happy with yourself & that is really hard.
Personally I'm going to have therapy on working in my self esteem, that may help.

Also to the OP don't be too full on with a woman you like as to many of us that can be off putting. At my age I'm very independent & when men text / message me all the time I do find that scary. But some other women like that.

SinkGirl · 21/09/2018 20:26

You sound like a really lovely person and I doubt for a second that you are unloveable.

I haven’t spent much time in my life single (possibly learnt from my mum who couldn’t stand to be alone). I’m not especially attractive or especially interesting or especially confident, but then I’ve never done online dating which seems like a pretty brutal process to me. Almost everyone I’ve ever dated has been a friend / friend of a friend. My husband was a friend and colleague for years before we got together.

I would try some counselling and more socialising with people with common interests. Get out there as much as you can, doing things you enjoy and are good at - this alone will improve your confidence. Focus on making friendships rather than relationships and work on yourself. I know how hard it is when you don’t like yourself, and I also know how hard it is to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t like themselves and needs external validation. Work on being happy with yourself and others will pick up on that.

NobodyToVoteForNow · 22/09/2018 07:12

TierraJ actually, that's a bit of a myth. A man's chance of producing healthy sperm and healthy sexual function declines steadily as he ages. It's the patriarchal society we live in that likes to gloss over this, focusing instead on the idea of older women becoming 'past it'. Not much comfort to the OP, but had to be said.

AlmaGeddon · 22/09/2018 09:15

I think too that if someone is busy - hobbies lined upmostnights, full weekends, then you appear more fun and more interesting, try some new interests OP. choir? Art?

YeahCorvid · 22/09/2018 16:47

Choir is a great idea if you can even remotely sing, because there are no personable straight men under 70 in any of them except people's husbands. You'll be mobbed