Am I unlovable as a man?

[richdeniro]

Apologies for what is likely to be a long post and perhaps may come across as needy and/or entitled, that really isn't my intention, nor to be self-pitying, I guess I've found that writing things down seems to be cathartic to an extent. The reason I am posting here as I am not a father or even in a relationship but I have posted here in the past and you all seem so lovely and offer such great support and advice plus it really does help getting a womans perspective on things. This post might also be a bit all over the place so please bear with me.

Basically I guess the last few months I feel I am a bit of a mess and just cannot get over a short-ish relationship I had earlier this year which I posted about here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3260864-Ex-wants-to-be-friends-but-Im-heartbroken

I know I was essentially used as a rebound for her and that I probably did deserve better but don't seem to be able to process that logically as I'll be totally honest and say it was the closest thing I've probably had to a relationship. The rejection and pain I have been feeling since she ended it has been like nothing I've ever felt before in all honesty and today I was rejected by another girl after our second date last night which seems to have dredged these feelings back up.

I guess I have been very unlucky in love over the years - (I'm 38 now) right back to when I was in a teenager at Sixth Form. Pretty much every person I have ever had a crush on from then until my mid 30s rejected me - they were usually college/uni-friends and work colleagues. I usually didn't tell them of my feelings for weeks or months and when I was rejected had built them up so my feelings were always pretty strong so it would always hit me hard and take months to get over, usually not helped by them getting into relationships with other guys fairly soon after. In 2014 it actually led to me getting CBT because I fell hard for a work colleague and just couldn't seem to get over her after she rejected me and then started seeing another work colleague. It helped to an extent but not enough and almost feels like the effects of that have now worn off.

I've never been the type of guy who can chat girls up in bars, clubs or in other situations hence why I always found myself looking at people in my life already hence the school/work things. I lost my virginity when I was 25 to a work colleague who was 40 and just out of a divorce, we had a FWB type thing going for around 6 months but eventually she ended it, left the company and met someone else. I was pretty hurt and it took me a good while to get over it. My next relationship was when I was 32 which wasn't really a relationship, I met a girl on a work conference abroad who was from Panama, we spent around 3-4 months doing the long distance Skype type thing but only spent 3 weeks in total together during that time, it obviously fizzled out.

And for the last 6 years I have basically been doing the online dating/apps thing. I have been on countless first dates in that time, off the top of my head I would say probably in the region of 50-100. A few led to a second date but most of the time I get the 'thanks but no thanks/no chemistry or spark' type message the next day if I am not ghosted. Very occasionally I end up in a one night stand type situation from them and that is really the only time I ever have sex.

Over the last few years this has led to my self esteem always being fairly low and I have come to the conclusion that I am unlovable. I don't think I am a bad looking person, go to the gym a lot, decent job, own my place, have hobbies and think I am all the types of things that a stable guy should be. I even give off the impression on the outside that I am happy go-lucky and always have a smile on my face but inside I am dying and fighting these thoughts that I am not good enough for anyone female. I also have to stay strong because my brother is a paranoid schizophrenic and so don't want my parents to think they have another son who is a mess and not normal - not helped by the fact that I am approaching 40 and still attend family events with no significant other surrounded by cousins of a similar age who are all settled. I know this really hurts my mum too as she just wants to see me happy.

I guess the last year has really bought it to a head because I met the woman who I linked to earlier in January who kind of showed me what it was like to love and be loved back. Obviously living alone can be quite lonely but having her in my life seemed to make nothing else matter and to me it felt so real. To have that kind of intimacy was a real first for me and sorry for the cheese but it was so romantic - we used to dance together in the living room to slow songs, fall asleep hugging each other all night, etc (sorry I won't go into anymore detail but you get the picture).

Her sudden change of heart and the way she treated me in the final month has really hit me for six and has left me bewildered. I do wonder now if she was the female equivalent of a player as she did tell me about her sexual history before her marriage (slept with the entire football team at uni, former bosses, etc) and obviously knows she is attractive and knows how to play men - she flirted with them in front of me on occasions and I obviously saw her whatsapp was full of random guys numbers that weren't saved as contacts a few weeks before she ended it with lots of 'xxxx's at the end. I think the most painful thing she did thinking back was when she was at my place one evening I really opened up to her by telling her about my brothers illness and what me and my parents went through when we had him sectioned, how it was the only time I'd seen my dad cry and how I had to deal with it all to be strong for them (I've never told anyone about all that before). Within 5 minutes she was leaning forward so I couldn't see who she was messaging but I caught a glimpse and it was an unsaved number of a guy with her sending a load of heart emojis.

Anyway, I've digressed. I really haven't been able to get over her in the 3 months since she ended it, I've obviously gone completely no contact in that time and I can think back to the final month where she really treated me appallingly but I just cannot process it logically and still think about and miss her a lot. I also am hurt that she hasn't reached out in that time which I know is for the best but doesn't stop me wishing she would. I am doing better than I was in the first few weeks after she ended it but nowhere near where I should be I think.

I have resumed dating through apps but it seems to have gone back to the cycle of getting loads of first dates but never a second until just recently. I went on a date with a girl I really liked last Thursday and we went out for dinner last night but I received the text I was expecting earlier today whereby she said she thought I was really lovely but couldn't see anything romantic there. It really has made me feel down and seems to have triggered all the thoughts about my ex ending things again and that I am unlovable which I guess is why I'm writing this post.

My ex ended it by text and her final text read 'I suppose I need to fancy someone more'. This has been going round my head pretty much since I received it, I think about it quite a few times a day and it now makes me think that because of her divorce, being on the rebound, etc that it just took her a few months longer than it takes normally to see that I am not an attractive or lovable person like most of the dates I go on seem to get to almost immediately. I also can't stop blaming myself for my ex ending it, I just feel that I became needy/insecure/jealous about her messaging other guys and kept calling her out on it so she lost attraction to me as I know how those traits are unattractive as a man.

Anyway back to the original point, I'm not really sure where to go from here. I think I'm a good person and live by treating others as I would want to be treated myself, I am probably a bit shy/introverted but have an extremely wide circle of friends, people always seem to want to be my friend but nothing more, I have tons of female friends but no one ever seems to just fancy me - I can't think of a single time in my life where I have actively been asked out or fancied by a female who wasn't going through some sort of emotional issue like a divorce. They all just think I'm 'sweet' or 'nice' and just for want of a better word, Friendzone me. I've seen women tell my other guy friends that a girl likes them and things like that but it's never happened to me.

The last few years have also been tough as being in my 30s I've seen pretty much all of my close friends get married, have kids and settle down whereas I just feel like a bit of a loser who can barely get past the first date.

I just wonder if I am hard wired and have that personality type that isn't attractive to the opposite sex. I know some men do go through their lives single and wonder if I should just accept that is my destiny. I've recently signed up to therapy in a kind of one last shot before I hit 40 to try and sort myself out but I'm not sure what else I can do.

Apologies again for such a long, self involved post and I understand if I don't get many replies but thank you so much to those of you that do take the time to read and reply. I appreciate there is a lot written down and it is a bit all over the place but I guess it kinda helped just putting it all down on paper if you know what I mean.

Sorry for the long post I guess it's cathartic to talk through your problems. There's not many IRL that would be as frank and care as much as you guys have. Just had an email from the Agency that the new job has fallen thru, they chose a different candidate... but I have handed in notice and left my current one last Friday. Most of the savings went on the car and it now looks like there's an issue with the engine as a warning light won't go off. Apparently I can't get a warranty repair as the car at 37k miles has exceeded the 20,000 mile service, but I won't bore you with the details. Went outside to check the car as I saw youths outside near it earlier in the evening.

Is there a cooling off period if you walk out of a role? Can it be reversed like Brexit? I guess I will have to ring in the afternoon once I have dealt with the car. I have such awful luck

@MrBuscuits, you are hilarious

@yeahcorvid thanks, thats the first genuine compliment I have had from a woman in about 54 weeks, without using the word sweet... I will treasure that while I am fighting to get the car fixed and my job back... dinner?

Sorry, @yeahcorvid don't want to scare you off as well 🤐 I will never get used to this social interaction malarkey 😅

I'm in stitches, please start your own thread MrBuscuits. I haven't laughed so much since having read The Diary of Adrian Mole 20 years ago. I think you should forget the French cars, they are tinny (the french like bumper cars) and get a BM. Mine is a classic now and I get loads of compliments about it. The best being "I'd never have guessed you had a drug dealer car"

Rich, by all means work on yourself but this fashion for therapy, yoga and virtue signalling will pass. If you really want to improve the way you interact with people, your ability to influence and read people then you'd get more out of volunteering in a capacity where you are both helping others and working on your social skills. Don't go too far down the path of narcissistic individualism.

Are yiu going for "high status" women.

I wonder if its like some guys who think they cant get a relationship but always go for women that are not on the same level as them socially or appearance wise, and women who are in their league, theyre not attracted to?
Just a thought.

I don’t really believe in leagues but know what you mean.

I don’t think I’m going for women who would be out of my league as you would put it.

What did I just read?!

MrBuscuits definitely needs his own thread, like you said you might save yourself a fortune in therapy.

I’d read it 😂

‘MrBuscuits Stream of Consciousness’

OP, you are waiting to be saved in a world where most people have too many of their own issues to want to play Rescuer. That dynamic is nice for a Disney movie, but start thinking more in terms of what you have to offer than what it is you are wanting. Sort out the former, and the latter will quickly fall into line.

Mr Buscuits is hilarious, is this real?

@MrBuscuits please start your own thread. And also please publish a diary. I would buy it.

@richdeniro, your heart is in the right place, you just need to get your head there too. Change your focus, work on yourself.

Your latest ex treated you appallingly. There was no excuse for her behaviour. Set your bar higher, you deserve to be treated with respect.

Mr Buscuits are you winding us up?

rich you have had some great advice and you are not completely clueless like above pp. Hope it works out for you.

you don't see women as real people and have no interest in them- you just want a relationship. This will come across very clearly to savvy women and they will be put off completely by it.

Mr Buscuits, I hope this is a wind up.
If your wanting a classy woman you cant be taking them to Pizza Hut and then parsimonously be splitting to bill within a copper!.
They will think you are a cheapstake and wont want to know. You need to be going somewhere nice and offering to pay for the whole night. A decent woman wont hear of it and will pay her share. But you need to offer at least.

Mr Buscuit, are we your focus group for market research into a newspaper column or stand-up act? Let me know when the film comes out, the concept is great.

Rich, you seem smart enough to be able to work out why Mr Buscuit's approach wouldn't hook'em in - that's honestly a good start. Maybe it has just been bad luck - there are plenty of people bumbling about getting it a bit wrong who do just get lucky and find a decent relationship anyway.

Tell us more about the good points that make you a great catch. You have friends - tick. You are not a whinger moaning about how the world owes you more - tick. Can you cook? If not, that would be something to learn in the evenings

At the risk of getting flamed I will take a different approach to other posters on here, especially in light of it being an anonymous forum and that. Op are you really good with regards to your personal hygiene? Do you have bad teeth. Can you objectively look at yourself and say, "I wonder if I got my teeth fixed" or something like that? I will tell you why. I am old and married but we have befriended our builder who is genuinely one of the nicest people I have ever met and he could have written your OP. I bluntly told him to get his teeth fixed and he would be amazed at the difference. He did and he was! It cost him a pretty packet but the difference it has made to his self esteem is amazing and he has a proper love life now.
You say you ask why the rejections are happening. Trust me very few women are going to crush you further by saying exactly what the problem is if it is something like BO, bad teeth, a terrible laugh or nasal hair. We all cop out and say shit like, 'Just no spark' because it's easy and we don't want hurting someone on our conscience.

Men in friendship groups aren't like women in that we discuss between us what would improve each other's look/hair/teeth/skin/clothes. Can you imagine men saying to each other things like, "You would have more luck if you got an implant in that gap" or "Just shave it off mate. Stop it with the comb over already". Maybe they do. As I said I'm an old bird but I get the impression they don't : /

Things that have put me off suitors in the past are things like bad personal hygiene, teeth that need a good dentist to do a few hours of work on. Really sloppily dressed. For example wearing workwear when at home out of sheer laziness or living in clothes suitable for a rambling holiday only. Wearing dirty clothes. Not changing clothes often enough. Dirty shoes. That sort of thing.
You don't have to spend a fortune on clothes. Jeans and tee shirts are great but they have to be clean and actually fit.
I hope I don't come across as shallow. Sometimes if the detail of your life is not attended to, it indicates about your personality that given half a chance you would abdicate that responsibility onto a partner the minute you get one. This sort of thing is off putting. I'm not saying get a copy of GQ and model yourself on the men in there but a small element of that possibly.

Before I get flamed I know I am no goddess.
Look yourself in the mirror and ask if you had a friend that was prepared to be blunt and honest to the point of hurting your feelings, what they would say and then change that thing or those things. Women aren't shallow but there has to be an initial attraction or you will fall at the first fence. My builder kept falling in the paddock!! When I met him for the first time I remember thinking how handsome he was and how appalling his teeth were and wondered why his wife or girlfriend hadn't marched him off to get them fixed. When he told me he couldn't get dates I thought I had nothing to lose by being honest as we had already fixed a price for the job here : ) : ) ; )

My boyfriend has crap teeth but has never had any trouble attracting women - can't claim to be a beauty myself but his exes are all very pretty. But he has zero issues with self-confidence. I'd wonder if it was not the builder's teeth but his self-confidence that was the problem.

Got really good teeth to be honest, it's one of my better features as I've always looked after them, parents always made sure I saw the orthodontist as a child and wore braces, etc.

Personal hygiene wise I am always complimented on by women so I really don't think there is any issues there - in fact the girls at work always compliment on how great I smell and my ex use to text me all the time saying she always loved I how smelled. Same with clothing and the way I generally look. I really don't have any issues with anything physically if I am honest. Go to the gym 2-3 times a week, swim before work, 100 pressups a day, do some lifting, etc.

It's this cursed self belief and lack of confidence / self esteem that's my issue. I also don't believe that life is a disney movie or that I am waiting to be saved, it's just the companionship that I would like I guess.

I like the cooking class suggestion.... I can cook if I follow a cook book but generally could be a good skill to learn. I'm actually on my way to the South of France now on a work trip so might see if I can pick up anything there :)

Personally, if you're not fully over / still struggling with the break up of your last relationship then I would give dating a miss for now. Your head or heart wont be fully in it (even if you think they are) and it can come across to your date that way.

Maybe get your head in a better place first? Hopefully the counselling will help with that.

A walking group, cooking or a new sport? Anything like that is good for getting out, even if it's not with the intention of meeting anyone. Do you have any groups near by that is for single people to meet up for dinner / drinks / cinema etc so they're not on their own (not just as a couple but in a group). I know someone that did this but I can't remember the groups name and he met his current partner that way, wasn't even looking for a relationship, just wanted some new friends.

Anyhow, I'm rambling, you sound genuinely a good bloke, I'm sure you will get snapped up in no time at all, you just haven't met Miss Right yet.

I've resided to stay single, just too many tossers out there

Being harsh, it shouldn’t take aons to get over what was essentially a casual and fairly short relationship. You stayed involved too long when given her actions it should have been obvious that she didn’t want a relationship with you: don’t compound that by dwelling for ages now!

I'm the female version of you! I have been married but it wasnt happy or loving and I don't count it as a 'normal' relationship. I'm now divorced and have dabbled in online dating. Only had one first date which didn't go anywhere. I'm not physically attractive so don't get much attention on online apps and in RL nothing has ever developed with anyone. I've never experienced that mutual attraction thing (exh doesn't count, that was a disaster). Anyway, just posting to let you know I understand and you're not alone!

Thanks for all the kind words. I would look into the costs of starting my own thread having posted a letter to Mumsnet's offices 1st Class this morning. A bittersweet day, I was overtired after checking the MN thread for replies (thanks again rich ) but I had overslept and the kind people at the Council had given me a ticket as it was past 8:30. The "Engine Check" light is still there, and the idle of the car is rough so I think I was sold a lemon (or is that citron in French? ) Getting to Chingford from West London is terrible at the best of times and Hangar Lane (A406) was not my friend this morning. Capital Xtra traffic reported that a van had shed its load of glue and we are being advised to stick to the inside lane as we pass through Brent Cross and Golders Green. I hoped I would see her today at the showroom... it would take my mind of the stop-start system that has decided to stop entirely and I have to restart the car entirely which caused no end of beeping and cursing in broken English from Somali cabbies as I tried to divert through Alperton, Harrow and Edgware to avoid the melee.

The service station at the beginning of the A1 by Totteridge had some lovely flowers, and I bought the lady Milk Tray. It's just to show I'm a sensitive gent. After @yeahcorvid 's rebuff of dinner earlier in the thread, I needed something to pick me up as my serotonin levels had tumbled quicker than House of Fraser's share price. I cheekily parked in a disabled bay near Barnet and popped into Boots for some Valium but they told me it's prescription only. I bought some Kalms instead and washed a few down with Red Bull before returning to the Renault, which has now got a parking ticket. But what an arresting sight the Parking Enforcement Officer was! The bluest eyes, blond hair, I'm sure she was from Eastern Europe. "I'm not cancelling the ticket sir" she said to me, but even that accent set off my tachycardia... I hope I don't put women on a pedestal but I do like a girl in control. My therapist said that may stem from my overbearing mother.

Lol, what a piss taker you are. A man would never write like that.

Stupid tablet. Hands shaking with a mixture of rage and disappointment. I asked her how I ring the Barnet PCN hotline and she just said the number is on the reverse of the charge notice. That accent... I gave her one of the carnations which were not so wilted from the flowers. I should have checked before I bought the frigging thing. Cut to the chase she said no... am I so unloveable? My name Mr Biscuits comes from the comfort eating I did as a teen after each rejection... the name never left me from Uni. I didn't open the 2 packs of Maryland cookies as I wanted to return the car in good condition, I am rejecting it, the way women reject me, forcefully of late. I got to the car supermarket and it seems the girl has left and gone back to Birtley office, I don't even know where that is. I hid the flowers and chocolates under the space saver wheel, along with the parking tickets. Though I have read loads of MN threads, I understand snooping is a thing, and I found out the car was ex hire from Gozo, Malta hence lack of V5, keys etc. I stuck to my guns and demanded my money back. I listed the faults. I felt the guy wasn't listening to me. I noticed one of his colleagues the other side of the car checking it over I was told I wouldn't get a refund but could be offered vouchers towards a different car or one sent down from Castleford or Derby during the week. I couldn't wait for that, and following @minitheminx 's advice thought I would go for a BMW. The X6 was an eye watering £37k, but I had put around £16k of the Renault's list price towards it. A gust of wind took some of the 50's out my hand... stupid Storm Ali... or was this Bronagh or Callum? The reps seemed to have a laugh at me dashing round trying to recover money that had blown out of my briefcase, at one point I was trying to pull a bank note off the wet windscreen of a Nissan Pulsar at the other end of the forecourt, so I can make people laugh, it seems. But why not women?

I promised not to return and said I would take the X6 as it was, it was not valeted, but thankfully no warning messages on the dash. £87 later, I had brimmed the tank and was heading back to West London. Broke open the pack of biscuits to celebrate! There was a V5 with this one, and BMW in Brentford can get me a spare key if need be. Flamenco Red stands out and it certainly turned heads as I headed home, Drill music blaring. I decided it's time for a new me, confident, not giving two shits, forthright if that's what the girls want. Even got my ears pierced down in Camden, the biggest gold studs they had (Stings like hell but I can't take them out in case the holes close up quicker than the Eurotunnel after a No Deal Brexit), mum and dad won't be happy if they saw. I will tell them I did it for charity. As strict Christian Scientists it was tough as a kid riding out glandular fever without even a drop of Calpol. Perhaps the illness changed my personality at some point and I lost my mojo.

I try to tough it out but a bit of me feels guilty about the parking tickets left in the Renault. The car was not properly owned by me so should I worry? What if officers from the NCA put the door in if Barnet Council pass them my details? Is it this weakness or problems with guilt that makes women wary of me? Now I have the X6, is this what women really want from a guy or was @minitheminx pulling my chain and joking with me?

Rang my ex employers when I got home, said I had a midlife crisis and was foolish to leave. They said there was an entry level job at £18k, beggars can't be choosers so I start back on Monday. My role was filled yesterday and they don't want to tell the girl who replaced me the job is no longer there so things will stay as they are. Perhaps I csn get to know her better and explain the job to her? All you guys said love happens when you least expect it. Should I swing by her office after I've taken round all the mail and replenished the water coolers?