Prenup advice

[prenupdebate]

Hi, I'm new so apologies if this is in the wrong place.
Basically, myself and my partner of almost 18 months have been thinking about marriage. Although this should be a happy and exciting time, we're unable to think seriously about it until we're both confident that we have the right processes in place... i.e. a prenup. My partner earns approx. £80k and is 34, has a lot of assets whereas I have very little. I have an ok job (around £20k and I'm 25) that doesn't pay loads, but I get by and we have both agreed it is ideal for when we have children as it's 'safe' and has good benefits.
I am more than happy to sign a prenup that will protect his assets - his house, car, savings and most importantly his company. These are all things he has done for himself before we even met, I have not earned them nor do I deserve or want them. What worries me is he seems to think this attitude should continue after marriage - that property, savings etc should remain his as 'he' will be buying them and that most likely our finances would be completely separate. He's very wishy washy on what he believes I would deserve if we marry and I give up work to become a mother to his kids and a glorified housekeeper.
I gave him a scenario that if we (or HE as he sees it) acquire £300k of assets over a 15 year marriage and have 2 kids, what would he see as a fair settlement and he couldn't answer. I said all I care about is knowing that if I have his children I will be able to put a roof over their heads and he said he doesn't see why he should give me a house in the case of divorce.
The whole thing is very unromantic, and I'm starting to see that perhaps he will always see his money as his money, no matter how much I sacrifice and the effort I put into him/us/our family. I'm very good to him, I give him all my time, I buy all the groceries and cook for him daily despite still living separately, and he knows I'll take care of him always, I often feel like he takes this for granted.
Am I being unreasonable here? I always thought a marriage was an equal partnership. If my parents had got divorced I'm certain my Dad wouldn't have dreamed of giving my Mum anything less than 50/50 despite the fact he technically 'paid' for the house, cars etc.
Please let me know your thoughts, as this is causing me a lot of heartache... I love him very much but I can't help but wonder if I want to be with a man who puts money above the ones he loves. He also has 2 children from a previous relationship that he doesn't pay enough for IMO.
I am not a gold digger, although I'm sure some will say I am. I have no interest in his existing assets and if he is made bankrupt tomorrow I'd still love him exactly the same. I'm simply concerned that if we marry, he'll makes his fortune, he'll leave me with a couple of kids and I'll be left with absolutely nothing.

So how do you know his ex was this gold digging cheat? Because he told you? I'd take it with a pinch of salt frankly.

It seems to me like he wants everything his way and is unwilling to make any sacrifices. He wants kids, but wants you to be the one to give up work and do all the care, probably house work too, for nothing in return. Does that sound fair to him?

The only way this could work is if you NEVER become reliant on him. You don't have kids, instead you build your career, you don't take on more than 50% of the house work or wife work, you never pay for his children, you keep your money for yourself only. If you do have kids, you do not become a stay at home mum, and instead you go 50/50 on childcare. This is the only way you can protect yourself.

Frankly, even if you hate this idea (which no one could blame you for!), I'd tell him you'd been thinking about everything, and this is your plan, build your career, not be a stay at home mum etc and see how he reacts. If he's not happy I'd tell him he was being a gold digger by expecting you to provide free childcare and cleaning services for him. It may get him to see things from your side, but to be honest, I doubt it. I think he's just incredibly selfish and wants all the nice parts of marriage that suit him, whilst giving nothing.

You are a mug for feeding him every day when he contributes nothing.
Ask him to buy the groceries each week if you intend to stay with him.

It's often said on here, that when a man tells you who he is, be sure to listen. He's telling you that he's greedy and selfish and mean. How he is treating his children tells you all you need to know about him.

Something I've found with mean people, is that while they start off being mean with money, it very quickly becomes apparent that they are also mean with emotional things too. So I think you could have a very emotionally barren life with this man.

He may seem lovely now, but then he would show you his best nature in the early days of a relationship, you don't know the real man yet.

Pre-nups are of little value in the UK, but if I were you I wouldn't sign anything with this man, he is setting out to take advantage of your kind nature.

Don't marry him or have children with him, you would be better running for the hills, they are that way >>>>>>>>>>>

Thanks for this! Great advice and very very true. I have an interview this evening and another later this week, both with good career prospects so hopefully I’m moving on to bigger and better things.
I think I’m finally admitting to myself I deserve a man who makes me feel special, not like this. He has made serious mistakes in our relationship one that temporarily broke us up, I wish I’d listened to my gut then but he is so convincing

He's obviously not happy with you OP.

Hopefully you don't care, once the scales fall from your eyes they are very hard to stick back on.

Best of luck with those interviews OP!

I guess all this time I was thinking that if we would marry it would be different, but the prenup talks we’ve had and others experiences have shown that it’ll only get worse

Going on what Hobnob said above...
Imho he is treating you like an employee.

Some perks with the “job”, yes. But I bet that if you measured up your shopping receipts against his (superficially benevolent) treats (birthday and Christmas means only twice a year) he’d come out with the better “deal”. You are doing food 6 out of 7 days. Hell yeah, he’s getting a better deal. Oh, he shops when his kids come around- how nice. How often is that?

He wants the end of your relationship to mirror an employee termination. You’d be on the dole for “unemployment compensation” rather than have a fair settlement from his personal coffers.

Google value of “stay at home wife”. Do you think he’ll draw up an employment contract and cough up that much? Ha! When pigs fly. Cake/eat it too.

He is already using you.
Skip the divorce, don’t marry him.
You are financially incompatible.

I also agree that showing him this thread was a mistake. You do not need to tell him everything. Keep some things back for yourself. That sounds like a page out of his playbook doesn’t it: that’s fair play.

I have to say I'm not in agreement with most of the posters on here. Firstly a pre nup is persuasive in law, which means in the event of a divorce a judge would note it and take it into account but it is not necessarily going to mean it is followed in any settlement particularly if it were a long marriage. However, once children are brought into the equation the courts main interest is to ensure the interests of the children are looked after. That means if you are the main carer you will receive a settlement that enables you to care for the children and that there are enough finances for you to do that, whether a pre nup exists or not.

Secondly taking the above into account I don't think he is being entirely unreasonable. When I remarried I made it clear to my partner that what is mine, is mine. There are lots of reasons but the main one being I had more money than he did and wanted to protect it in case we didn't work out. So far we are good. However we have children but not together.

Iti snt the pre nup that's the problem for you though is it? It seems to be is his attitude toward money and whether you will be equal in this relationship. You, like me, probably don't earn a huge amount because you don't allow money to define you. I have always worked for charities who are notorious for poor pay. Can I suggest you speak to him not about his attitude toward money but about equality within the relationship. You have many talents I am sure, and are bound to be better at some things than he is. Have a think about what those things are, and about how much value you put on them, then have a think about whether YOU value yourself and your talents enough. I would work on the relationship for a bit and see if you can turn it around. Equal pay for equal work doesn't mean the 'same' work but work of the same value. I'm going to get shot down for saying this, but people on here are very keen to say run, but I think you can improve relationships. If he loves you, he will value you and want to keep you. Work on it.

Secondly taking the above into account I don't think he is being entirely unreasonable. When I remarried I made it clear to my partner that what is mine, is mine. There are lots of reasons but the main one being I had more money than he did and wanted to protect it in case we didn't work out. So far we are good. However we have children but not together

The massive difference there is that you're not wanting kids that you expect him to give up work and look after whilst you keep all assets to yourself!

No op don't stay. There's nothing to work on. He wants you to put in the same money towards things even though you put in.more time and effort and you earn a fraction of what he does. He wants you sacrifice your career to look after him and the kids but doesn't think you deserve anything for this. He is telling you loud and clear (wish my stbxh had) what his values are. His attitude isn't going to change. He's stingy with his children and I'd take with a pinch of salt what he says about his ex (in fact, it may be worth having a chat with her because what she says will be your future if you stay with him).

I've posted upthread already but I want to add that once you've stopped posting on this thread, you should change your username - by showing him this, you have given away your anonymity and freedom to post without him seeing what you say.

In the light of your later posts, I still stand by what I said. I wonder what he yhinks you should be grateful for, exactly. He is not doing anything amazing for you. He takes you out once a week to dinner, which he gets to enjoy too. Ditto birthday treats, whoch are experiences he gets to share. He is spending only on things that are good for him as well. That's not generous. You, meanwhile, are using your much reduced income to buy food for you both. I bet you spend as much as him, but you can afford it less.
There are things he could do to make your life easier, but chooses not to. Everything is a transaction for him. Cancelling the order he made for you was petty and spiteful.
Imagine you had a daughter - would you want this for her?

I know you think his ex was greedy but I suspect he has pulled these financial control tricks with her. You only have his word for what her motivations were. I tbink she might have an entirely different take on it.
You describe him as vengeful. Not an attractive trait. If you can see mean behaviour in him now, marriage is not going to make him a kinder, more appreciative person.

AngelsSins That is true, but as i said, the law ignores pre nups when there are children born from the marriage, so it is irrelevant. It's more about the lack of equality in the relationship.

The law can ignore prenups, but that won't help you if he hides his income. Being self employed, that is easier than if he worked for someone else. And if you go in to a marriage where you even have to consider that he might do that, it's a huge sign that you shouldn't be marrying him.

He isn't self employed he has a company through which he is paid and the accounts would be available. Difficult to take money out of a company account without it showing on the books.

All of the accusations of being ungrateful stinks of him grooming you to shut the f*ck up.

Your comments about loving him if he were penniless give him a green ligtht to hold all of his pennies to himself. This makes you a rich (gasp, a pun!) target for him. You are in training for a miserly existence, if you stay with him. Also true as said up thread: mean with money, mean with love.

Instead of a child or employee, he is really treating you more like a pet. Nope.

The law does not ignore prenups. Otherwise, no lawyer would bother drafting them.

They are not binding but constitute powerful evidence as to the intention of both parties. Clearly, if there is no mention of children in a badly drafted prenup, then it would be hard to read the intentions of the parties post children.

On the other hand a carefully drafted prenup taking into account future children would be powerful evidence.

I admit there have been many times I’ve got frustrated about the fact there’s more he can do but chooses not to, ive said I’ve felt like I put more into the relationship but nothing ever changes, like I said I was hoping it would change after marriage but clearly it won’t.
I’ve lied to family and friends about things as everyone assumes he pays at least the majority of our expenses as he’s quick to tell everybody how much he has.
I don’t mind continuing how things are, but as he doesn’t see marriage as an equal partnership, I guess I can no longer see a future. I don’t think I can be with someone who wouldn’t want to support his children x

AngelsSins That is true, but as i said, the law ignores pre nups when there are children born from the marriage, so it is irrelevant. It's more about the lack of equality in the relationship.

True, but if this is his attitude then what if they have kids and she is a SAHM, she could find herself being financially abused. Being expected to still pay 50/50 AND do all child care. It's his whole attitude that's the problem, rather than the prenup, I think we agree on that!!

OP just to pick up on your earlier point that you're happy to do the bulk of the cooking and help with childcare because you work fewer hours than he does. This only makes sense when you're sharing finances - one partner brings more to the pot financially, the other partner brings more in terms of time and effort for the household.

When you're not working as a partnership your DP's trade off for working more hours is earning more money - your trade off for working fewer hours is less money but more free time. You're not obliged to share that extra time with him if he won't share his extra finances with you to help you out in a time of need.

I'd be interested to know what other issues you've argued about...

Not that he won’t support his children (that is an important clue however) prenupdebate, he is showing/telling you he won’t support you.

In addition, he is showin/telling you that you can’t make him support you.

He knows that if he funds you on anything then that creates an expectation or establishes a foundation on which future claims can be generated. He is not ‘going there’.

So this isn’t about how he treats his kids or ex, it is how he is treating you, now. In the present moment. Scrape up your dignity and self esteem and get angry. Dump him. Let him do it to someone else.

Marriage is only an equal partnership if both people have the basic concept that it is. I read that prenups aren't even recognised in this country. You are already on an unequal footing financially and it seems he wants to keep it that way. If you can accept that then go ahead and if you can't then end the relationship. He's never going to view his assets as yours. So if you do split up I can't see how rows over financial settlements could be avoided.

Note - he has been 'stung' by ex (mother of kids), they weren't married but she went after everything she could which I believe is where his mentality has come from, although I think he has a bad attitude towards money anyway.

No. This won't be what happened. His mentality will have been there from the start and this is how he will describe what happened because of that mentality.

The truth will be quite different. She probably wanted a fair support for their children (HIS children) and he didn't want to give it. And the truth is that he doesn't give it, as you well know.

This will be you. Stop trying to prove to him how you don't want his money, how you even now will buy all the food and all that shit. It is unfair an yourself and you will get addicted to being 'good' and a 'giver'.

It won't make any difference because he is not normal about money and he will simply think you rather like being taken advantage of. He is not normal and he will never see it as you do.

as the law currently stands, without a prenup, he would have to give you spousal maintenance for the rest of your life and maintain your 'needs', which divorce lawyers have a habit of greatly exaggerating

Larry, Absolutely not the case, SM is difficult to obtain and only relevant in a very long marriage where the partner, for valid reasons, is unable to self support.Rarely is it awarded for life.
SM is only given in cases of high earners and for limited time so that the wife "gets back on her feet".
Courts look at 50:50 for assets (in my case I had the assets pre marriage so lost out) and child maintenance at the basic level, even if the nrp earns multiple times the threshold.My ex's child maintenance is a 3% of his income as threshold doesn't go high enough.Most women are less well off after divorce and men are better off after divorce.This is proven in research.Women are however happier:)

The myth that women are permanentely looked after is from high profile cases that make the news...but that is exceptional and rare.
Generally the cost of having children is borne by women...NOT men.

Op, so glad you had the wake up.His doesn't respect you as he only values money.

I suspect he may be an lonely old man with money.His attitude of contempt towards his ex (mother of his children) will be your future. Sadly I know it from personal experience as divorcing a similar man.

He's started his own thread. Aaaahhh bless.

Lifebegins,

I am looking at assets and spousal maintenance as fungible.

Most relatively well off couples go for 'clean breaks' where the assets (regardless of being pre marital) are calculated to provide an income for the divorcing spouse to meet their Form E needs until the end of their lifetime (according to actuarial charts).

Yes, this is only relevant in relatively high net worth divorces (though not just the super rich), but that sound like what the OP's partner is, or at least would like to become.