"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@SingingLily, why does their humour have to have been so...deprecating? My mum was same...nothing was ever quite right as it was never quite the way she would have done it...not as overt as what you suffered though. Just teeny digs, here and there, small comments that lodged in me. Death by a thousand paper cuts. It's comforting to know from you that they can heal a bit.

@Lotsofworries my mother is exactly the same in terms of never being wrong, can never apologise. The handful of times I've confronted her over something have never ever gone down well and have left me feeling like I'm the one at fault for being over sensitive/upset and she's only doing what's right- when often if I tell someone else about what's she's done they can't believe it's so inappropriate (hence the then making excuses for her when in reality there are no excuses she's just behaved like that because it's how she's behaved...) I've had a lot of therapy in regards to a very bad last relationship which touched on my parents but I feel I should probably go for some more to really address this just because I feel so angry quite often and there's only so much my husband can take! I found when we moved near to her everything ramped up massively- almost like she saw me as a teenager again who could do her bidding. When I was pregnant the first time I was very ill and signed off work from very early on - she would do things like on the one hand look after me but on the other make out it was an exaggeration, I worked as an accountant and she would just randomly
Offer my services to people as something for me to do- despite the fact I'd been signed off work so wasn't looking for anything to do! It all got worse really from then on, when my son was six weeks I began a different professional qualification course which took two years because she thought it was what was best for me- I actually have a little interest in it but I feel so annoyed that she effectively bulldozed and manipulated me into doing the course with a baby so young which meant I spent time away from him (she wanted to look after him) and which did ultimately add a lot of stress to what should have been a nice time. Then a voice in my head says 'take responsibility you chose to do the course' which essentially I did but only really to make her feel proud of me (which she doesn't really- they planned a family event the day of my final results and she reminded me multiple times beforehand they'd be going whether I passed or failed, I'd stated I was worried I'd failed at one point and when I passed with a first her only response was 'but you said you thought you'd failed?' And it was never mentioned again!) In regards to grandchildren, my mother is the same- she also almost views them as her own children but only as far as she can exert control (so thinking she has a choice over names/Nursery/feeding preferences/schools etc.) she also won't do anything that is remotely not in her comfort zone - but often even if it is in her comfort zone it requires talking through with her at great length and creating lists and reassurances and she insists she can manage on her own but quite clearly can't. I
Left my 1 year old daughter with her once and returned early and my daughter was in her cot screaming blue in the face and my mum was frantic saying quite horrible things to her and i asked her to leave- she still doesn't understand why five years later I don't want her to have my children on her own!

She also randomly decides they are good at something (usually that would be something they'd have inherited from her) and then will obsess about it... she also changes history depending on how it fits her story (so we were awful children but then when her grandchildren even slightly misbehave of course we were perfect as children and she's never seen anything like it)

@SingingLily I constantly feel a fraud in everything i do- even when it comes down to making friends i often feel as if I'm waiting for them to find out I'm not who I say I am - they were exactly the same in regards to marks and expectations (see above in regards to course) she almost resented me as well for doing well- so when asking what happened to the 2% or whatever it was in a gleeful way. She too would say I am massively over sensitive. If I have ever confronted her her responses are:
I did what I thought was best
You interpreted that wrong
You're being very over sensitive/dramatic
You were very difficult as a teenager

The latter comes up constantly - I was suffering from severe anxiety which led on to other things including hallucinations and she refused to even acknowledge there was an issue- instead choosing to think I was psychic! I used to feel so mortified over that I couldn't tell anyone because I felt the need to protect her - now I just feel so angry that she saw how much I was suffering and did the bare minimum. She constantly told me I didn't want mental health problems on my health record because i wouldn't be allowed to do things and it would be held against me for life. I confronted her over all of this and just got 'I did my best' it annoys me because her best wasn't even remotely good enough and she can't see that! Sorry turned into another rant about me- finally started talking and can't stop!

@Lotsofworries, it's not humour at all. It's a subtle chip-chip-chipping away at your confidence and self-esteem. My mother is a grandmaster at it - withheld approval, tactical silence, grudging and barely lukewarm praise if societal conventions push her into it, backhanded compliments, the lot. I was actually quite relieved (in a pure of heart and well-meant way) when you reflected on how your mother aims little barbs at your daughter. Please, please think about this a little more. Will they have the same "thousand cuts" effect on your little girl's emotional wellbeing as they did on you? I ask this because my lovely DSis, who bore the brunt of M's cruel and self-centred behaviour, quietly but firmly limits contact between her little girls and their grandmother to unavoidable family gatherings where she and my DBiL can keep a watchful eye and keep things moving.

Why does M do it? I've read thousands of posts on this lifesaver of a thread and I've read some of the websites and the books it recommends. DSis's view is that M has "the emotional age of a toddler" and that sums it up perfectly. M has always been irrational, self-absorbed, quick to take offence, prone to tantrums, sulks, and casually cruel words. Whatever the situation, somehow it always ends up being all about her. She cannot face up to her own insecurity and inadequacy so she lashes out. The only way she can feel better about herself is by cutting everyone else down. I've spent a lifetime walking on eggshells with her, placating her and trying to keep her calm. My father, meanwhile, has always shielded her from ever facing up to the emotional carnage she causes. He makes excuses for her, tries to smooth things over, tells me I should "shrug things off" and be the bigger person.

And for a long time, I did precisely that but it comes, as you know, with a cost. Along the way, I lost myself. But no longer. Enough is enough.

@basbousa, I'm so sorry. You really have been through the mill. I've struggled with depression myself but not to the degree you have. However, the fact that you have broken free, moved to another country (a brave thing in itself), set up a new business with your husband and are soon expecting your second child (and laying down boundaries) tells me that you are strong, much stronger than you think. It might not feel that way just now but have faith. Try to remember that your mother is the problem - but you are neither the cause nor the cure. Your only responsibility now is to yourself and your own family.

When you decide to stop banging your head against a brick wall, eventually the pain stops too. I've stopped banging my head. The pain is subsiding, apart from the odd and unexpected twinge. I hope so much that it will be the same for you.

@Lotsofworries my mother also is a weird mix of low self esteem and singing her own praises and she flicks between the two - she's allowed to do herself down or whatever but if you even gave the slightest indication you might agree with what she's said then you're wrong- for example she'll show you some work and ask what you think and if the response is not 'wonderful!' Then she'll tell you you're wrong.... additionally she'll often even ask 'what do you think is wrong with it?' And then if you say anything at all then she
Immediately informs you you're wrong! Likewise yours might do this too where she asks you a question and if the answer isn't what she wants she'll ignore it or pretend the answer was what she wants in a weird gas lighting way where you're not really sure how it's happened!

Just realised I've tried to make myself less identifiable and messed up in the process! I have two children and one on the way and she has made each pregnancy and birth about her in some way (from telling everyone she knew I was pregnant before I knew and had announced it, to slagging off the name and refusing to call them by anything other than baby, in one pregnancy I was very ill and she started an argument with me that I wasn't providing her with enough support! The following pregnancy she told everyone how selfish I was to put her through it all again!) it's a weird set up where I feel like there is no separation or boundaries and I am now frantically trying to put them in place and dealing with the fall out! She also has begun telling me how abnormal it is not to want/need her support (for example she is livid that I've not chosen her to look after my other two whilst in hospital- insisting everyone would at the least want their mother with their children but ideally she should be in the delivery room) to be honest I know this is not normal, I know it's ok to reject it, I know it's not ok for her to go off in huffs and throw tantrums, it's more that I don't know how to deal with it and accept that is her and how she is and it will not change!

Saying she won't do things you want her to do- I told her the due date and she told me how inconvenient it was for her as she had two prior engagements- as soon as I said that was fine and she could come a week later she began the whole routine of insisting she needed to be here before the due date- I imagine if I'd insisted she needed to be here before the due date she'd have gone out of her way to tell me how impossible that was for her! I've learnt to just not rely on her for anything and you won't be disappointed!

Sorry, basbousa, I should have said you are expecting your third child. I think what you and I and Lotsofworries may have in common is a mother who is a covert narcissist rather than the overt sort. Took me ages to work out which made me a little annoyed with myself as the signs were always there, I just didn't join the dots before. Once I did, however, it was a genuine A-Ha moment and I began to feel more confident about dealing with it. @toomuchtooold has previously mentioned someone called Richard Grannon who has a 45 minute YouTube video about how to recognise a covert narcissist. I can't do the link, sadly (I'm a bit of a technophobe) but you might want to look it up.

@SingingLily that's really interesting - was your mother similar with you as she was your sister? I only ask because I feel with my siblings we each slot into different roles she's assigned and it's impossible to get out of them- it also means we can't really discuss her because she treats us so differently so each of us has a different experience of her. I watch how she speaks to my children and my nieces and nephews and she definitely plays favourites which is one of the reasons I won't leave my children on their own with her - mine too makes barbed comments but it's more common for her to leave out praise altogether or praise one person at the expense of silence to the rest which leaves a horrible horrible environment to be in - she is much more loving to my children than I ever remember her being with me but she often tells me how she hated being a parent (something she said constantly as we grew up) and now is her time to shine as a grandparent.... as if we owe it to her in some way. I only noticed when I saw my husbands parents interact with our children how different the interaction is - it's almost painful for me to compare my parents and his, as although his can be frustrating they are very very different (and healthier) than mine!

@SingingLily cross posted- I will google for the podcast thank you. I think I am at the stage of anger at her and almost bargaining in a way of 'if I could just understand why she did x it would all make sense and everything would be ok' so I'm almost obsessively trying to understand her behaviour and I think realistically the explanation I am looking for is one that doesn't exist. I've accepted a lot of her behaviour now whereas I used to constantly wonder 'why won't she do x', now I just don't expect it because what's the point? It makes me sad but the mother I thought I had at 20-25 is one id made up in my head rather than the one I do have if that makes sense? Ten years on and a lot of therapy and a good husband, its a lot easier to see what she's like and what I do have instead, but its bitter sweet

It makes complete sense, @basbousa. You are grieving for the mother/daughter relationship you should have had, the one you deserved but were denied. I wish it had been so different for you.

I'm the eldest of four and we were all treated differently as well, so like you, it's hard to talk openly and honestly to all of my siblings. Only my lovely DSis, the youngest, knows firsthand and understands.

My brother and middle sister were cared for from birth but I was largely left to fend for myself. I'm a little embarrassed to admit this now (but I'm determined to be honest, if only with myself. The layers of secrecy in our family are unbelievably corrosive even to this day) but I started school with unbrushed hair, dirty fingernails, mismatched clothing and shoes that were too big. It wasn't a question of not enough money. I just didn't matter. The other kids at school made fun of me and so I very quickly learned how to take better care of myself. But however humiliating it was then - and still is - I was just five years old. I was a child. It was my parents' responsibility to care for me and they didn't. The embarrassment should be theirs, not mine. Not that they would ever see it like that.

One Christmas, I remember being so excited to find a "big" present for me under the tree. There was no time to open it though as I had to accompany M to morning mass (I hated going to mass. It was winter, cold and dark. I was always hungry as no breakfast was allowed before communion even though I was too young to take communion. Mass then was in Latin so it seemed interminable and incomprehensible, and M never bothered to speak to me anyway. It was a lonely experience. Dad refused to go and my brother, naturally, was excused. Only I was made to go, probably because it was what real families did and it was important to look like a real family, so it was my lot to endure). When at long last we got home, there was my present, a Monopoly board, already unwrapped and set up on the table. I was so excited. I remember reaching out for the little silver tokens only to have my hand batted away. "Don't touch!" said M. "You'll mess it up". I was only seven years old but even then I understood. It was "my" present but not really my present at all. She and F had bought it for themselves; I was just the excuse.

I once asked M if I was adopted. It seemed, to my child self, to be the only logical explanation because I was so obviously the odd one out in the family. She said "Don't be so silly", and walked out of the room. I would have been about six years old but I didn't question her reaction. I certainly didn't expect reassurance or comfort. Dismissiveness was what I was used to.

Those aren't the most upsetting memories, just the earliest ones, but I think you get the picture.

My youngest sister, my DSis, is 17 years younger than me. I mothered her in her early years because M showed no interest in her. We have a strong bond that endures to this day and I would do anything for her.

F actually told my DSis once that M had only ever wanted three children. Because that's just the sort of thing that any normal loving parent would say to Child No. 4, isn't it? I believe now that he thought he was eliciting sympathy for his poor hard-done-to wife, trying to put her selfish behaviour into some sort of victim context for the child who was the unfortunate "cause" of her unhappiness. I can't forgive him for that, by the way. Even though he was the one I ran to as a child for emotional support (no point in seeking it from M; she doesn't do empathy and she's never done hugs), I cannot forgive him for this casual cruelty towards my DSis. She waited until she was 14 before she too asked whether she was adopted. I think she almost hoped she was.

Our middle two siblings had quite a different experience of growing up. They had attention and care lavished on them. My brother found it too much. He fled the family home as a teenager. My middle sister escaped by marrying relatively young. Nonetheless, middle sister is now an entitled and judgmental social climber and my brother leads a solitary life. Our relationships as siblings have always been tricky and prone to multiple misunderstandings, not helped by the secrecy M is so fond of. I struggled for years with loneliness, depression and poor self-esteem because of my upbringing. My lovely DSis worries endlessly about whether she is a good and loving mother to her two children (she is, by the way; she tries very consciously to be nothing like M).

Our family dynamics are rubbish. Yet M says we have "the perfect family". She's very proud of that, even though "divide and conquer" should be her middle names.

Thank goodness you have a good and supportive husband. I do too, and both he and my DBiL look after both DSis and me. The four of us know we can rely on each other and I can't tell you what a difference that makes.

You can't change your mother, basbousa. All you can do is change the way you deal with it. Yes, it is bittersweet but it is liberating, too, to finally accept that she is not your responsibility and it is not up to you to keep making 99.9% of the effort to make your relationship with her work.

Singinglily I found your post brave and heartbreaking. It's just not good enough is it and I think we truly realise it once we are parents ourselves.
I too have a wonderful DH, maybe that's the pay off.

Hello. You don't know me but I have a situation with my father and grandparents and could really use some advice.

My father is a chaotic man with severe, untreated mental health problems. He has never really been a proper dad to me; I've seen him once in the last two years and he barely ever contacts me. (Has maybe sent one text in the last six months).

As I mentioned, he lives a very chaotic life and I find this difficult. He has regular insane crises involving violent/dodgy friends or girlfriends, imagined health problems etc. It's very difficult to be told these (often quite scary) things in the middle of a cafe unexpectedly, was even more so when I was a teenager. It always brings back feelings of sadness at everything he was never able to give me, the fact I'll never have a proper father, and deep sadness at how he just isn't able to keep his life together and the impossibility of him ever changing and being the stable, secure person I needed growing up.

It was a ritual growing up that I would go to my grandparents for alternate xmas's with that side of the family, on the other side of the country. My grandparents are gentle, responsible and kind people who, it must be said, clearly made some mistakes with their own children but have always looked after me when I was there as my dad clearly wasn't going to and have always been very kind and loving towards me. He spends the whole time getting shitfaced and pretty much ignores me completely. I find these visits very difficult, therefore.

I am married now and with limited time off from my full time job, seeing my mother, my partner and my partner's family, it's difficult and expensive to make time for this. And it's even more hard to want to do given that spending this prolonged amount of time with my father is painful for me. My father's clear illness and bizarre and upsetting behaviour is never mentioned; our poor relationship is never mentioned; I am made to pretend everything is completely normal for the benefit of everyone else and having to put on this false front and pretend everything is completely normal makes the visits hugely stressful for me.

I feel so guilty at not going, however. How do I cope with these feelings of guilt? Do I just suck it up and go for the sake of my grandparents? They're elderly now and it bothers me that I might regret not going later, when it's too late..

@SingingLily that sounds incredibly difficult: it's interesting how much of our situations growing up are similar- my father will never hear a word against my mother and enables her behaviour to the point where I've now realised that he is as much to blame as her. My mother used to hate it when we were young adults if she thought us siblings were getting along, often stirring the pot. She'd tell anyone how we were constantly at each other's throats because it made her a saint, but when I look back the only times we really were, were when she was around to start the arguments. She'd then sit back and watch and then try to act as referee. Now we're all older we don't fight at all but I wouldn't say we were particularly close (I thought I was close to one but my mother is now using him to complain about me to so I think he feels resentful of me as he has now taken up the role of soothing her anxieties now Ive began to back out)
The guilt that I struggle with the most is that they weren't neglectful growing up per se; we were clean and fed and went on nice holidays and had nice things but there was just a complete gap in emotional support/love and she now behaves as if we should have been grateful for the nice things growing up when I would sacrifice all the holidays for her to have provided what I needed in terms of support and emotional reassurance. Her anxieties meant that my life is just one pit of anxiety and it was only until therapy that I really wondered how much was my own anxiety and how much had I taken on from her. Do you still speak to your parents? I'm struggling because they're coming out soon and they'll bring lots of gifts and I'll feel so guilty accepting them knowing how I feel.

@OlBitey That sounds like a really difficult situation to be in; could you visit your grandparents but not at xmas to relieve the pressure a little bit? It's totally understandable you don't want to go and play a charade - could you make an excuse about wanting xmas alone this year? Try not to feel manipulated by them though as you don't need to explain your reasoning to them for not wanting to be there at xmas - you're an adult and they should accept your reasoning whatever you give. I personally always think xmas is so emotionally charged and the expectation is to spend time with family who you might not see eye to eye with and to pretend that everything is perfect is so frustrating, especially when you're struggling with family situations - I would try so hard not to feel guilty about not going and maybe make some lovely alternative arrangements for yourself (maybe you could go away if you can afford it- although I've often lied and said we're going away when we aren't just so that you have a flat out excuse!) then if you want to see them you could go when it's not xmas and things might be a little less fraught? Just an idea. Hope you can find a solution and don't beat yourself up about not wanting to go- I think we all suffer from feelings of obligation for so long that when you finally want to put yourself first if feels horrendously selfish.

@basbousa

Ditto! Just when it looks as though middle sister or brother and I might be trying to rebuild our relationships (we make periodic attempts), M undermines everything and we are back to non-speaks with each other. It's all done under the radar, of course. I don't think we are actually allowed to have any relationship except directly with her. Even family news is carefully triangulated. My brother once said "No family news Is ever official unless it comes from Mum. The chemical formula is E=Mc2, M standing for Mum". He meant it as a joke but he hit the nail on the head.

M cannot influence my relationship with DSis however and it is a cause of simmering resentment with her. A couple of months ago, she actually said to me, "I forbid you to speak to X, do you hear?" She meant it. I just laughed in disbelief, said I would speak to anyone of my choosing and walked out. That was during a period when I was attempting limited contact but for this, and many other reasons, it just wasn't successful.

Now I am not in contact with my parents at all. M's decision. I think she believes she is "punishing" me (a favourite word of hers). You see, not being able to spend time with her is the ultimate sanction. She did once try to banish DH from her presence "for a month" for some imagined transgression or other but, being a blunt Northerner who doesn't mince words, he didn't quite react in the approved way. He just laughed and asked what he had to do to earn a lifetime's ban.

The NC thing began just over two months ago and I went through lots of ups and downs about it. Too well-trained in guilt and obligation, you see. However, my DH, DSis and DBiL have been so supportive and in the last few weeks, I've realised that M has done me the most enormous favour. If she hadn't initiated NC, I would have had to. I finally feel free. My DSis has decided to maintain very low contact so that her little girls will one day have some distant memories of their grandparents; I understand and fully support DSis's decision, just as she fully understands and supports mine.

Christmas, the first Christmas under the new regime, promised to be difficult. However, this year, we are going to DSis's laden with food and drink and gifts and happiness and good cheer. Middle sister will be out socialising with the rich and famous, as usual. Brother will be doing his own thing, as usual. And our parents - who normally come to ours so that M can put her special mark on the day while the rest of us smile through gritted teeth for the sake of the kids - will be sitting in their flat all on their own with only the TV for company.

The perfect family.

For what it's worth, barbousa, don't feel guilty in the slightest about the gifts. I truly believe that the only things in life worth having are family, love, health and happiness. Everything else you can buy, probably online. Your parents can't or won't give you the things that truly matter so the gifts are meaningless. Give them as much thought as your parents have put into buying them for you. I know that sounds cynical and I'm sorry, but you already have the things that matter in your own little family.

@OlBitey

I echo barbousa's advice. This is your Christmas. I do understand the obligation you feel towards your grandparents, particularly if you always went there every other year when you were growing up. However, things are different now. You have your partner to consider. Why not offer to FaceTime or Skype on the day and then perhaps offer to meet up at a less emotionally-charged time of year? But whatever you decide, I wish you all the very best.

@fc301

I'm so glad to know that you have such good support too - and thank you so much for your kind comments. I know you have troubles of your own so it meant a lot to hear from you. My very best wishes to you.

Hello all, I would really like to join this thread. I have read through some of the earlier threads and catching up slowly.

My story started 2 years ago. I fell out with my sister. It was an eye opener. She told blatant lies and tried to gaslight me. My adult niece and nephew became abusive over the things that she told them. It was awful. I quickly realised that she had done this our whole lives. I remember countless episodes where we would have an argument and then when I tried to discuss it with her she would respond with “well you said you were going to hit me so what was I supposed to do” (this would never happen but it was a way to end the discussion). I could never understand why she did it and would often let it go. This time though, she involved her son and daughter and she has had no choice but to keep the lies going.

The trouble is that she has also told the same lies to our parents. Because I now see that it has been going on for many years and I never tried to defend myself, they have the view that she is a victim of me. My dad is the same as my sister and also defends his behaviour with lies and gaslighting.

I removed myself from FB as I was seeing all the family posts that I was left out of. My nieces and nephews blame me for stopping them having relationships with their cousins when the reality is that I did no such thing.

About 6 months ago, I decided to reach out to my sister. To try and save relationships. She responded well at first but as soon as she realised that my niece and nephew were not interested, she began to kill the relationship by spreading lies again.

My Parents called me a few weeks ago questioning me on some of these things and I had to defend myself again. I am not sure that they believed me and I am so defeated by it all.

Yesterday my mum called me to say that they had made a will staying that the house be left to my brother who lives with them and then all other monies to be left to my sister and I, and my sister as POA for them in health matters and a solicitor is POA in financial matters. How they share their assets does not concern me at all but I cannot help feeling that they have set it up to ensure that I have no say at all. My sister is a train wreck emotionally and financially and so that can not be their reasons for doing so. The thought that my sister can control one of my parents lives should they become unable to do so makes me feel sick and yet this is how they want it!

I just feel so sad by it all. I am tired of defending myself.

I guess what I have realised is that this hasn’t developed over the last two years. It has been a lifetime but I guess I always accepted it as normal.
There were so many times that I was at family parties and felt like an outsider. There was often an unexplainable atmosphere like I had upset someone. I often compensated by trying harder. I bought many expensive presents for Christmas for my niece and nephew and let my sister pass them off as her own as She had one of her many Christmas financial dramas and I recognise now why I felt I needed to.

My Sister is a version of my dad and I see now that he lied repeatedly to me about others and about me to others. When you have them on the pedastal it is easy to believe in your own insanity and I think I did.

I remember no warm hugs or chats about Life growing up. I remember I was scared to bring friends home due to the way they would not acknowledge them (children seen not heard). I remember telling my mum about sexual abuse and her telling me to keep it quiet as it would cause upset. I confronted her as an adult and she admitted she thought I had lied.

I remember being alone through PND which my mum later told me she knew I had.

@GreenTeacup

I am so sorry that you have - and are still having - such difficult times with your family and am not in the least surprised that you are feeling so low. You deserve better. I am particularly sorry to hear about the SA and cannot begin to imagine how this must have affected you. There are others on here who sadly have suffered similarly and I am hoping that someone might come along soon to offer you far wiser words than I ever could. It's late and I hope you manage to get some sleep. I send you

Hello all, fellow survivors . I don't think I'm ready to put into words yet the horror of my abusive life at the hands of my DM and bully of a sister. I just wanted to say thank you to you all for sharing your stories - these pages have literally been a godsend to me and have helped me realise I'm not alone in this journey. (Although I wish none of us had had to go through this)

Hopefully one day I'll be brave enough to share my experiences.

for you all

@GreenTeacup

I'm so sorry for the way you've been treated by all your family, you've clearly been made into the scapegoat and your sister has been the golden child. You really didn't deserve any of that.

I am, similarly to you, an SA survivor (although sometimes I wonder whether I really can say I've survived, 'I'm surviving' is a better way of putting it). I'm so sorry about the way your mum treated you at that time, her not believing you must really have hurt when she told you that.

What I can say is that there is a lot of support available for survivors. I found Rape Crisis to be excellent, and I've had person centred counselling. It's given me a chance to come to terms with what happened. I'm on a waiting list for EMDR therapy through the NHS.

You can still report the perpetrator to the police. I went through the process; there wasn't enough evidence, as all the abusers were dead apart from the one man they investigated. But the officers who interviewed DSis and me were really great, very supportive and they believed us, which meant a lot.

You're welcome to PM me if you want to.

I've NCed for this post.

I'm in my 40s, in same relationship for over 20 years, 2 kids. Mother was a narcissist with MH issues persisting to today. My childhood was full of emotional and psychological abuse. A sexual component from outwith the familial structure. Father a (weak?) man who passively enabled Mother. Sibling golden child, some years older.

I'm worried about my relationship. I'm disabled and unable to do many things, including walking more than a few steps. I don't often get the help I need. TMI, it's been 12 months+ since I last had a bath/shower.

I think OH is psychologically messing with me (abuse?). I see things I watched Mother exert. This is not a rare or random occurrence either. There's been a handful of physical things over the years, usually throwing something at me in temper while I'm being told how useless I am.

I cannot exit the relationship, nowhere to go, no money, my disabilities and I'm chained to OP by two things, one present when we got together and one in the last five years. Can't detail. Nearly walked a few years in but very young child and my Father ripping me a new one (you don't walk out it's for life is one thing he said) ensured I'm still here.

I take copious amounts of medicaments (prescribed) including morphine and other opiates, lots of pain meds, anti+depressants, and diazepam. Mother took diazepam and I'm really shit-scared I'm going to turn into her. I've self-harmed for 15+ years and not likely to be stopping.

Not even sure what I want from posting this. Thanks.

Soscared

There is always a way out. Are you in the UK?. If you are can you contact the likes of the Rights of Women and Womens Aid by phone and or email?. Your local force's domestic violence unit?. There is help out there for you but it will need you to access that and taking that first step out of this hell you write of. Abuse like you describe here thrives on secrecy; bust this wide open now. You were not put here on this earth to be abused so.

It is ultimately too late for you only when you are dead and your children are in all likelihood seeing you as their mother being abused at first hand too.

What support do you get outside the home which is akin to your prison?. Where are adult social services here, your GP?.

How old are your children roughly; teens or younger?. They in all likelihood know a lot more than you realise.

The two other things that keep you chained to this individual are in all likelihood not insurmountable obstacles to leaving.

Your dad is wrong on all counts; he has abjectly failed you here as well as your so called mother. He chose to stay with his monstrous wife (because he gets what he wants out of that relationship, he is truly a weak bystander of a man) but you do not have to repeat the same old mistakes that he has done. You still have a choice here. Your parents are not fit parents and are not worthy of the term.

Staying for the children rarely if ever is a good idea and in your case a terrible one. We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents and yours taught you a lot of damaging lessons. It is mainly why you are with your abuser now.

What do you think your children are learning about relationships from the two of you here?.

I do not think you will become like your mother because you have two qualities she lacks; empathy and insight. Also if you think that you are a narcissist and fear turning into one you are not a narcissist.

Dominiom, it took me a long time too so I understand. It's hard to face up to. You'll get there, and in the meantime, I wish you the very best.

Recently name changed and just checking back in.

How bad does it have to be for no contact? Is this the only way?

And if no contact is the only way, are there things you should try first?

Thank you for your support all.

@whyareweallhere people go NC for different reasons and I don’t think that there is a “one approach suits all”

For me, I am NC with my sister but not my parents. With my sister, I can’t see a way forward with her. She will always use me as a target and I refuse to play that role. My parents on the other hand I can have a reasonable relationship with as long as I keep to my own boundaries. I am working through accepting that it will never be the relationship that I deserve or would have liked to have and I protect my own DC’s from them (but as they show little interest it is not hard) but I can see a future with them playing (albeit a minimum role) in my life.

Are you struggling with the decision to go NC with someone?

Green teacup- thanks for your response.

Yes I am, it’s complex and not just the one person. It’s so hard to decide low contact or no contact.