"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi all, sorry to barge in... Does anyone have any recommendations for a therapist who can work over Skype? I live abroad and don’t speak the local language well enough to go to one locally. I suspect my mother is part-narc. Currently in the midst of a falling out and this time it feels like a lot of damage has been done and I can’t see how to move forward.

I used to post on these threads a while back and learnt a lot. Now I don’t want to be pinned down by all this anymore.

Sorry for not reading back.

Anyway, any therapist recommendations much appreciated. Thank you.

Thanks guys I've had offers from a friend I work with to help and they're trying to find a work around for hospital as their plan was 3-4 weeks as an inpatient and I had to say no.

How the fuck do I get through this? I've just started journaling and there's so much shit coming up I didn't even remember had happened or know I'd felt. There's so much pain I don't know if I can take it. I just can't pull myself together, it's agony

I've posted here about my parents (and PIL!) and always found it a brilliant place to let off steam.

I'd always allowed my DM too much control of my life. Even though I moved abroad, I would always ring her every day and always sought her blessing before I made any decisions. Often she wouldn't approve and I'd do it anyway, but I felt uncomfortable not having her support.

In the last few years, this has changed. I started seeing a therapist after I burned out at work, and it didn't take long to realise that work wasn't the only reason for my messed up MH.

I don't phone or visit often these days as I find my childhood home to be a very toxic environment. They're constantly slagging each other off to me, telling me how miserable they are with the other. I wonder why they stay together, but it's not my problem. Apparently the only time they can have a civil conversation is when they're slagging off a third person, for example me.

After my last visit this summer ended in disaster, I told them I wanted space and that they were not to contact me during the week except by text message (which they hardly use, my DF never). If they want to see DS, they can Skype at weekends. So far they've respected that, for the main part, and the freedom feels fantastic. I've also just discovered that I'm pregnant, which has been helping me to put things in context, ie concentrate on my own life and not think about them.

I'm posting today because I did get a Skype on Friday, which ended up in me getting very annoyed with my DM - not because she'd Skyped in the week, but because of the way she spoke to me. Talking down to me, claiming to know me so well that she can predict how I'll react to some bad news and telling me I'm not to do this and I must not do that. I got shitty with her on Skype video in the middle of the street and I don't even care if people heard it.

So all in all, I'm doing well with breaking free and learning to self-soothe, but they - in fact, she - still has the ability to piss me off with one frequently trotted-out sentence. Unfortunately DH is away this weekend so I've got no distractions and keep going over and over it in my mind. It doesn't help that the reason for the Skype was some pretty bad news and that's upset me a lot, on top of some other bad news we've had this week.

Sorry for the vent, but I'm hoping by writing it down I'll finally be able to think about something else this weekend!

@greyallover use the journal to bring you back out of that place in your head too. So once you have written down a newly discovered piece of information that truly freaks you out, write something like: this is going to take some time to process, and i need to take care of myself while I wokr through it so as soon as I've finished here I'll (take a bath/have a walk/cuddle the cat/watch a comedy etc) Then maybe end up by listing some things that you do differently. I'm glad that with my DC I ... Or I'm glad that DH and I... or if you have no DH or DC, just I'm glad that I... This sort of climbing back out of the toxic head space puts you back into a healthy version of the present.

@MinaPaws thank you so much! That's really constructive and exactly what I needed. I will try that, I've just been in a despairing fuzz, wondering how to resolve those feelings.

Sorry to interrupt, can someone tell me how or where to get counselling please. I feel very trapped and suffocated in the relationship I have with my mother and Im starting to feel very very low and it's effecting me massively. Any info appreciated.

I've just bumped into my NM in a shop(not seen her in 6years) and I feel totally sick to my stomach! I just wanted to write it down somewhere

@butterfly did you automatically feel guilty when you bumped into her for daring to have a life that didn't revolve around her 100%?

@butterfly56 i really feel for you! I live in the same town as my nm and so far i havent seen/bumped into her. i am dreading it i cant imagine it will be pleasant! It does affect me going out sometimes. She works odd shifts so i never know if shell be around or not!

@whymewhyme im not sure what the best option is but maybe the gp is a good start? They will be able to refer?

I am sorry i have not message more i am lurking and empathising with everyone!

I met up with my brother on monday, im not sure how we got onto the conversation but he said "you dont have to worry about her turning up here, she said she will never do that again and you know where she is if you want to see her".

That has really thrown me, everyday i think about her, and doubt my decision. Its getting worse the closer we get to christmas as its her birthday that month and we had loads of traditions as we both love christmas (apart from when she is miserable because shes alone and has no family and sabotages it!!).

She is religious and i can just imagine that she leaving it up to god to see what happens and that she has hope. Theres no hope i dont want her in my life i have been so much better without her (ignoring the daily guilt and doubting myself!!). I just wish i could shake this feeling that i have done the wrong thing 🙁

Sorry this post was longer than planned! Just having a bad day today!!

@MinaPaws and @MummatoaMunchin Thank you for replying [

Yes I did feel guilty but really overwhelmed by the anxiety
I was so mad with myself because it was my first attempt to actually go out on my own in 2years(been stuck at home for more than 2years due to health problems).

So I went from being really happy and quite proud of myself for having got out of the house to absolutely feeling mentally like crap after a less than 5 minutes conversation with her.

I know that by the time I got home she will have been ringing everyone to tell them that she has seen me out and thus proving to her that there is nothing wrong with me at all!!!!

It's took me a few days to calm down and try and forget this meeting has ever happened.

Just waiting for the backlash from DD who is one of her flying monkeys who will be extremely annoyed at me for not telling her my every move.
God I sound bloody paranoid...even though my friends say they are the crazy making ones!!!!

@MummatoaMunchin
This is one of the reasons I had to go no contact with my younger sister because she would be sent by NM to relay messages similar to what you describe and at that time I was totally confused with what was going on as I could not have a direct conversation with NM.

Also my younger sister is the Golden Child and speaks with NM 2 or 3 times a day. I suppose it's a classic example of triangulation!

It's all meant to have you doubting yourself and who you are.

You have done the right thing to stay No Contact.
I hope you can find some fun things to do throughout Christmas with great friends who have a lot more respect for who you are

@MinaPaws
I have just read your advice to greyallover re writing things down.
I used to do this a few years...then when the book was full I used to burn it!!

So I am now off to dig out my notebook and start writing again to get this stuff out my head

Soooo this weekend.... DB organises a family meeting to discuss DF because he is getting more ill and he thinks we need 'a plan' (even though myself and DM are the only ones who have actually been taking care of him). Prior to this DB had an issue with ex organizing for ds to go swimming on the night my dm (grandmother) has him (because then he will only come to dm's for a short time and if dB is there he will get upset leaving again so soon). DB told our dm under no circumstances could ds come to her house. Dm thought about it and decided she was going to tell him she would bring ds to her house after swimming anyway because that's the only time she sees them. (It's her house and her time with them, he can go out if he doesn't want ds to see him and then be upset leaving) DB gets so furious with her he screams at her and she says "please don't shout at me" he says "that's not shouting this is f'ing shouting" and raises his voice even more, continuing to scream at her to the point she has to walk out the door and go down the street to get away from him. When I got there an hour later she was terrified and shaking. Later db's wife comes down to apologize on his behalf but tells her she should have told him then because then he wouldn't have been angry and not come to the family meeting. By the way they live at dm's and she is now terrified in her own house. She charges them no rent and they take whatever they want. DF meanwhile is bedridden after a big fall and has dementia while my dm has become his carer and struggling with the fact that she is losing her dh and her own life through being a carer. The only thing db says now is "I feel like my whole family hate me". I'm incensed!

Hello Just been recommended this thread from my other post.
I'm not sure where to begin... out of the 10 possible ACEs I grew up with 9 of them.
My parents are alcoholics and drug users (cannabis, cocaine and valium) My childhood consisted of violence. My Dad beat my mum who in turn would beat my sister and I. The house was regularly smashed up and my sister and I often had to fend for ourselves. I was encouraged to be violent and often got pressured in to beating my older sister who was percieved as being 'weak' I was the 'bad' one who was blamed for everything. My mum has told me several times simce i was small that she tried to abort me vut my dad dragged her put by the hair. My mum has severe mental heath problems as well as the substand misuse and has attempted suicide a couple of times with us there. My dad is a cold, controlling bully and was briefly incarcerated for stabbing her in the head several times leaving us in severe poverty... My mum and dad eventually split, well, my mum ran away with a woman when I was 12 leaving us with him. He would leave us alone for days at a time so the school contacted social work and they made us live with my mum when I was 14. Her alcoholism had gotten worse, my dad still appeared every so often to abuse her and she continued to emotionally and physically abuse me until I had enough and left at 15. I sofa surfed for a while until my sister (2 years older) got a council flat them I lived with her. She got preganant and after developing PND left me with my DN when I was 17. My DN was the best thing to happen to me. I stopped drinking and dabbling with drugs and managed to control my self harming to be 'worthy of caring for her.
Fast forward 22 years and I am now a professional in a well respected job, I have a lovely home and fantastic DP. However, I also have borderline personality disorder and Complex trauma as a result of my childhood. I see a psychologist once a fortnight and am undertaking schema therapy. I haven't spoken to my dad since I was about 15 and have a tentative relationship with my mum which mostly involves me being contacted by police or other agencies to intervene. I've had her sectioned twice. I don't speak to my sister who is a drug user. I hope fairly well but feel so angry and resentful of my childhood. I struggle to make attachments and often get angry and defensice

Hi, I am seeing a therapist for CPTSD and personality disorder and I come from a home where my father verbally emotionally anhd sometimes physically abused me and my mother allowed it because he did it to her as well and still does.

My therapist gave me a book the other week called Toxic Parents by Susan Forward. Has anyone else read it? what did you think?
Dani18
however I also have borderline personality disorder and complex trauma as a result of my childhood....I struggle to make attachments and often get angry and defensive Ditto, This describes me to a T. I ma having trauma therapy- Have not had schema therapy but have had Dialectical Behaviour Therapy.

I think where I struggle (and have for a long time) is that on paper my childhood was very good. Nice home and school and both parents were active n their church and very compassionate and kjind to other people. Sometimes they could be kind to me and my sister. But there were some times where abuse would happen. Frequent and in a pattern. But not daily. And I do not know why I am struggling with CPTSD and BPD when the abuse did not happen daily and was not severe (although threats of violence were used and my sister and I did live in fear).

For me, I think I was born with traits of PD and a very strong willed stubborn temparemment which meant my parents had a hard time bringing me up. I demanded validation for every feeling I had, no matter how trivial. So even though my dad was abusive and my heart breaks when it comes to my own sister's and mother's pain, when it comes to my own pain I know I was part of the problem too. So although I have been told my PD was caused by abuse, deep down inside I think I would have got it anyway, but the abuse made my symptoms worse? I think I was born extremely sensitive and needy.

I feel a little guilty being in therapy sometimes. I am aware that my childhood wasn't that bad really. But I just need a way to fix the void inside me and the fear. I need to be able to reconcile my own part in what happend with what my father did, and also those boys and men who did sexual things to me. My therapist tells me my tendancies to feel unsafe in relationships, to cause chaos everywhere I go, to hurt myself, to feel empty, have to come from somewhere. My memories of my early childhood up until age 8 or 9 are very patchy and I only know I was abused from my sister telling me her memories of ewhat was doen to both of us and also memories of fear and terror and screaming. Just vague memories of fear, terror, feeling abandoned (never was actually abandoned) and feeling I hated myself.

was also bullied at my primary school, mentally, verbally and sexually. I think that bullying is recognised by some therapists as a factor in CPTSD but not to the degree parental abuse is, so even though I think that has caused a lot of my issues, it is unlikely the therapist will really look at this.

I think my situation is unusual as my parents were not monsters or bad people, just frustrated sad people who themselves had been treated badly. And my situation is complex because I was not innocent of my parent's crimes in the way that my sister was, her being a much easier child.

I have never yet met an abuse survivor who is like me- in that I did a lot to provoke my own abuse, maybe not as a young child, but as an older child. I did not have nay "innocence" to rob, so I cannot complain my innocence was robbed per se. But I do feel I lost a sense of safety, a sense of self, and a sense of knowing whether my feelings are real or valid or not? I have never felt real. My emotions are very intense at times and non existent at others and yet I always question how real my feelings are- my father always did. I was blamed for being shallow and vain as a child and I know my vanity did not help the situation.

I wouldn't wish this feeling on anyone but I would love to know whether there are any people like me out there? People where the abuse was not black and white and clear cut, and where the parents were really loving but flawed? Please tell me I am not the only one.

My therapist says I minimise my feelings and experiences and I am trying to stop, but I don't think am there yet!

to those of you who are suffering

They're constantly slagging each other off to me and telling me how misreable they are with the other. I wonder why they stay together LCandHappier I relate to this so much. Been dreading Christmas because that is when I end up having to listen to them until I leave and then I get the guilt trips and suicide threats and other stuff.

I love my mum and even my dad, but I find it tough being around them when they are both together. I like spending time with my mum when she i son her own but it makes me sad she seems so afraid of my dad.

kafe from what you've written, it seems highly unlikely that any of what happened to you was your fault. Children don't bring abuse upon themselves because they're 'vain and shallow'. It's likely that your behaviour was as a result of having to deal with horrible parents.

Toxic parents is great (I've read the in-laws version).

Can I join. Dx of cptsd and my T is questioning whether I have a dissociative disorder. History of childhood sexual abuse by multiple perpetrators, one bring my father. My mother was a cold, detached woman who didn’t believe or protect me when I disclosed. Been back in therapy 18 months and I’m much better than I was but it’s very hard. This time of year is hard, Christmas coming, family shit. Makes me sad, sad about everything. My kids are the age I was when I was being abused and it’s so triggering. I’m desperate to get it all out and get on with my life but I get to therapy and I freeze and clam up. It’s a very slow process

but I get to therapy and freeze and clam up I find this too, also symptoms of dissociation but mine are mild. I feel that my problems just aren't serious enough to talk about- I mean my symptoms are serious, but the causes just seem so trivial. "my dad belittles me and makes fun of my weight", "I was shouted at and punished for not being able to do my schoolwork (undiagnosed learning disability) "my dad threatend to kill my mum and sister" (but never actually touched them, I just thought he might and lived in fear of it happening) "i had my genitals fondled and my grandpa used to make sexual comments to me as a toddler" (but i was never raped) "i was blamed for things I hadn't done and called a liar"( but never was locked out in the snow or anything) "my dad would tell me i was fat and disgusting and that I should starve myself" (but I never actually WAS starved) "my dad called us names, swore at us, humiliated us, blamed us, threatened to stab us" (but he also told us he loved us and was kind to us sometimes) "my dad forbade me to see mental health professionals and to tell anyone I was struggling because of the shame" (but he never actually stopped us seeing doctors for having tonsilitis or earache), "my father told me to kill myself" (but later came to see if i was Ok as he knew I had self harmed that day)

It all seems ws trivial to me. Yet I know deep down inside myswlf somethign happened that I cannot remember and it scarred me deeply enough to cause me to feel this void inside of me, this emptiness.

shackup It;s not so much that I blame myself for the abuse (because it happened to my sister too) but that I reacted so badly to it. I went from being so terrified of my dad I had to avoid him to becoming very provocative and bratty. I just feel that I am feeling a bit sorry for myself when in reality what happend to me peobably wasn't all that damaging. But then again my sister has scars from what we went through, in a much more subtle way but they are there.

I know that I am probably going to get banned from here (and I guess I deserve it) but sometimes I wish I actually had been harmed or abused in the legal sensee of the word. I really am sorry if this causes anyone pain on here, but I kind of have always felt something really horrific happened to me that I somehow repressed because the symptoms i have are of someone who has had severe abuse or attachment issues. Perhaps it is ancestral trauma or something. My therapist says in his opinion the abuse I had was significant and that I am just minimising it. I kind of suspect he is just saying that cause he wants me to not kick off or becaus ehe wants my money!

@Kafeundkuchen

I wouldn't wish this feeling on anyone but I would love to know whether there are any people like me out there? People where the abuse was not black and white and clear cut, and where the parents were really loving but flawed? Please tell me I am not the only one.

This is so so common and why so many people are living in denial about trauma and it's effects later in life. It's also why trauma gets passed down through generations unknowingly. The thing about that fear you mention is that if you experience it a lot at the time when you're developing the most (childhood) it becomes engrained in every fiber of your body and mind so that your reactions later in life are often based on that fear, even if it's not present anymore. And actually what you're saying about it somehow being passed onto you at birth, there is research suggesting that past trauma has biological effects within families even if there is no current trauma.