"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
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Oct 14 – Dec 14
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March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Bumblebee

What has really changed here. Nothing really, she is still very much a covert narcissist.

She may well have told you simply what you wanted to hear. These people are past masters too of "come closer so I can hurt you again". It goes without saying also that your children still need to stay well away from her.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

It just seems so damn hard. Like, there must be a part of me that still wants to believe she can change and be a Mum and Grandma
But I went NC for a long time (and not the first time I had gone NC before I had my first DC) so I know that's not for no reason.

I don't know. I want to believe she has changed and can change and that we are moving forwards. I think maybe I want to believe that so much I'm deluded again.

I just want everyone to love each other and get on. But OMG that woman makes me so vulnerable. I just left an abusive relationship and this feels like another one: saying the right thing, love bombing, then BOOM they have you again.

When I went NC before I had death threats from family members, false allegations to SS etc. Etc. I wish I'd never opened that door again in so many ways.

I don't know how my Dad has put up with this for 3 decades, 2 of them divorced but still relentless. Sometimes I wish he had raised me not her. She turned me against him as a child but he has been there for me so much more. & with respect, boundaries etc. He has also let me down repeatedly in other ways, but he has stepped up now.

Maybe I think if my Dad can change my Mum can too? My Step Dad is an abuser, and DM a covert narcissist, but my siblings are wonderful people and I miss them. God I miss them. I have been set adrift from them for so long due to this family battle. I just want a long peace now. I just want my family to stop being at war.

They used to all hate my Dad, but it got turned on me.

I am empathetic and believe in the good in people but I get proven wrong again and again...

@ScabbyHorse Maybe this stuff just is very very hard to deal with!

I think you're probably right!

Can you put up with having a relationship again with your mother if it yet again doesn't give you what you need? Even as adults, we still need our parents. And it sounds like her needs always came before yours even as a child.

It's funny, my immediate reaction is that actually I don't need her. I haven't 'needed' her since I was pretty small – I learned not to. So it's less about needing her, I think, for me, and more about this blend between guilt at cutting her off (Wondering, AIBU? Am I punishing her for my childhood when actually it's not awful now, just intense and tiring? Am I choosing the easy route, rather than taking on our relationship?) and a desire to salvage at least something from the wreckage.

@bumblebee: sending you hugs. So much of what you say about wanting to believe change is possible and endlessly looking for the good in people resonates with me. I really struggle with labelling people and the idea that they're 'just a narcissist and toxic, and always will be, and that's that' – I choose not to believe that narrative about anyone else in the world (I can't imagine how hopeless things would seem if I didn't believe people were capable of change), so it's incredibly hard to believe it about my own mother.

@ladybee28

That's the thing honestly...

I have been written off myself as a "druggy" (no longer do drugs) a "drunk" (no longer drink) a "nutcase" (I am on MH meds now and function fairly normally) etc. Etc.

I know I am not perfect and don't expect anyone else to be, but my mother just zaps me of energy... I don't trust her anymore in any way and yes, while a lot has to do with my childhood, more of it has to do with her behaviour since then.

People think it's weird when I have gone NC and act like its positive when C resumes, even people that know the shit she has put me through...

That guilt stuff I think is the main issue. And also people assuming it is my fault if I don't get on with my parent. No matter how badly she treats me.

ladybee I just wanted to say, don't let the fact that staying away from your mother is the easy option, make you feel that it's the lazy option. It's not. It's fine to not try and make the relationship work (it's fine to try too, but be careful) - you have already tried loads in your life and you deserve to be able to spend your time and effort on things that will actually make your life better.

Thanks, @toomuchtooold, I think I needed to hear that.

I chase my own tail in my head so much – on the one hand I feel heartbroken for her, knowing she can't help what she's like and hating that she feels 'punished' for it. And on the other hand I wonder if she even really is heartbroken about it - or if me going NC is just another convenient opportunity to prove that everyone's always out to get her and gather sympathy from her admirers....

It doesn't help that as a kid it was mostly just her and me. No siblings and my dad worked away a lot, so he had no idea about much of what was going on. I'd never tell anyone, especially not him - I think it was part Stockholm syndrome behaviour and part total uncertainty about if any of it was real or wrong.

She'd have passed out on the floor, come to, and then flat-out deny that it had happened 5 minutes later, or twist things in her explanations so that I had made something happen, and I had nobody to confirm my own experience with, so I've always had this deep distrust of my own memories and perspective on events.

Which makes making sense of all this very difficult.

I was just a child, and nobody else was there, and I've blocked out so many memories that most of what I'm dealing with is embodied physical reactions to things that I can't always make sense of, rather than actual memories of specific events.... so how can I be sure I'm not behaving out of proportion now?

I hear you on feeling bad for them. And wondering if they see what's happening. And hoping they'll change.

I think they tend not to change though. I think they justify it all to themselves and rewrite history to make it fit.

I feel bad for my parents. They both had abusive childhoods. I can understand why they are like they are.

But it doesn't excuse it, does it? I mean part of me wants to use that to excuse it. But there are lots of people with similar backgrounds who choose not to act like that.

I'm starting to realise that it's not just my dad who's being abusive.

I keep excusing my dm's behaviour because of her own childhood and because of how dad treats her. But I don't think I can keep doing that anymore.

I've been trying to do NC whilst still sending birthday cards/gifts and bring willing to go to public family events where they will behave better.

dm has said that unless I have a relating with dad I can't have one with her. I'm sad about it but accept it. But she won't leave it at that. She sent coercive emails, even using our shared faith to try and bully me into line. She also tried to set up a meeting to get me to do what she wants.

And now she's trying to get in between the dc and I. One of the dc has a birthday soon and she's decided that unless I restore relations, she'll give their birthday money to dc...but into an account only she and my ex can access. Dc can't access it and neither can I. She's told my db that she will take dc to get the money out if they want to.

My DB who is trying very hard not to be a flying monkey, told me and called it blackmail.

She also wants my db (who'll be here) to phone her on my dc birthday to chat to dc and say happy birthday. I'm thinking it's going to need to be on speaker phone. Dad is bound to be on the line with her too.

I don't trust them. Not sure what to do.

I have a lot of sympathy @ladybee28 - I'm an only child and my dad died a good few years ago. My mother regarded the truth as negotiable, and something that she got to define. It's crazy-making, and as a child I flipped between believing that my mother was crazy and dangerous and thinking that my dismay at her treatment of me was just me being childish and not accepting the punishments that I deserved. When you said about feeling lazy it really stuck a chord with me because I used to feel like that as well, that my mother was my cross to bear - I'd say things like "I'm her only daughter and she's my only mother so I want to have a relationship with her." I mean, what actually drove me to break with her permanently was her behaviour towards my kids and not to me, but I do remember the tremendous feeling of relief when I stopped getting in contact, and feeling guilty because of it, and also thinking that it was too simple somehow. But I think that "too simple" reaction is the one I needed to be listening to. I think that little "fuck this" voice, that reaction of self preservation, is actually the inner child voice - and all the complicated, "maybe I should see things from her perspective" stuff is what I put in place when I was a child and an adult not understanding what had happened to me, trying to reconcile my mother's view of the world with mine, to allow me to accept myself without having to challenge whether she was abusive or mentally ill or whatever. And in a nutshell, when I accepted that my mother had at the very least not acted in my best interests, a lot of that simplified for me.

What you say about the physical reactions... sorry, I've not been following the thread but have you heard of complex PTSD? I would recommend the book Complex PTSD: From Surviving To Thriving by Pete Walker and The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk, if you've never come across it.

@toomuchtooold I think that little "fuck this" voice, that reaction of self preservation, is actually the inner child voice - and all the complicated, "maybe I should see things from her perspective" stuff is what I put in place when I was a child and an adult not understanding what had happened to me, trying to reconcile my mother's view of the world with mine, to allow me to accept myself without having to challenge whether she was abusive or mentally ill or whatever.

Yep. This. I keep trying to remind myself that people who had normal upbringings don't have to struggle with this question, so the fact that it's in my head at all means something wasn't / isn't right.

Thanks for the book recommendations – I keep being told to read The Body Keeps The Score... maybe it's about time I listened!

And @Wrybread, this sounds so tough. I've been trying to do NC whilst still sending birthday cards/gifts and bring willing to go to public family events where they will behave better.

I think the thing about NC is it really has to be NC. Otherwise it becomes a game, where they get to tug on the little strings you make available and find a way to drag you back in. Your DC sound like they might be a couple of those strings in this situation...

LC works for some people, but from what I've seen / read / heard, only if they can be really rigorous around boundaries. No questions, no wobbles.... Can you?

@toomuchtooold I think that little "fuck this" voice, that reaction of self preservation, is actually the inner child voice - and all the complicated, "maybe I should see things from her perspective" stuff is what I put in place when I was a child and an adult not understanding what had happened to me, trying to reconcile my mother's view of the world with mine, to allow me to accept myself without having to challenge whether she was abusive or mentally ill or whatever.

This makes so much sense. I feel like I'm letting people down or being lazy. But why should I let them treat me badly? Why should any of us?

And yes, LC is hard but I'm pretty sure I can manage it. My problem is that my siblings are finding it tough. And if I went completely NC they might be expected to choose by my parents.

The LC thing is working. I stayed out of the room during the phone call but dh stayed in and dealt with it. And as I wasn't there dm was just fine on the phone to dc.

I think LC is working because dh is supportive and does see/understand the manipulation etc. So he's got my back. It makes such a difference having a supportive partner!

@Wrybread that's how I cope with my DM, low contact but allowing her to spend time with her DGDs. She plays board games with them whilst I get the meal ready, and I disappear upstairs after we've eaten, and my DH stays around downstairs to clear up. It works very well for me.

@bumblebee39
I know it is so hard to believe that is it, forever, we can never have any sort of relationship and I totally understand the huge want for it as you say not for her but for others. Only you can decide if it's worth another shot and what you are prepared to risk.

From what you have written though the stakes are very high if history repeats itself and the truth is a drug-user can quit, an alcoholic can abstain but I've never heard of a narcissist reforming. You must be amazingly strong BTW!

And the one thing they love to do is reel you back in by whatever means necessary - and as all other routes (including those as crazily extreme as death threats and false allegations to SS) have failed then perhaps an apology was her last resort to get claws back into you?

I honestly can't imagine how you felt when those things were happening to you, please take time to think if you want to risk that again? It sounds like your Mum enlisted your family in trying to cause you as much pain as possible, as much as you love them they were free to choose to have a relationship with you outside of your Mum if they wanted to.

Please look after yourself x

@Tara336
They sound truly horrendous, big hug to you and massive respect for surviving it and finding your way to a good relationship.

I know this sounds obvious but what are you getting from having these people around? Would you let anyone else treat you like that? How old are you going to be before you say enough? How many special events are they going to be able to ruin? I know it's awful, I know the yearning for a 'normal' family but you can't change them, you can only change what you are prepared to put up with and who you want in your life.

Huge hug to you x

Hello, first time posting here.
Need advice on Christmas. I'm low contact with my parents. During my twenties the only time I'd visit would be Christmas. I don't do that any more, no visiting at all. But I am terrified of Christmas now. I have year round nightmares about it.

I married a few years ago. Get on well with my in-laws, who have been nothing but welcoming and supportive, even though they know I struggle with the whole concept of family after how I was treated by mine. In-laws are very Christian, and family Christmas is a big deal for them. I have tried doing Christmas with them a few times, but my brain just can't cope with it. However lovely everyone is, I can't cope with the absence of conflict, because my subconscious believes that everything is about to explode. At my parents, it was actually a relief once the screaming started, because I knew how to deal with that, I don't know how to cope with everything being fine.

For the last few years I have just skipped Christmas entirely. Spent it on my own with Netflix and a locked door between me and the rest of the world. Huge relief, cuts out months of anxiety in the build up.

This year my father in law is seriously ill. We are all wondering if it is going to be his last Christmas. I know that it would mean a lot to my in-laws if I could be there for Christmas. But thinking about it is making me obsessively anxious, even months out. I keep getting nightmares and flashbacks to violent Christmas with my own family, even though I know that Christmas with my in-laws will be very different. When I've tried Christmas with the in-laws before I just couldn't cope. I ended up sat in an outbuilding on the phone to the Samaritans crying, because I couldn't stop panicking, and I didn't want to upset my in-laws while they were having happy family time.

Help? How do other people deal with Christmas and all the difficult baggage it can bring, even if your life is very different now?

I think the first step is to get some individual counselling.

I hear you on the conflict and just waiting for it to happen. But with time spent with different families I came to truly accept that it was my family that did that, not all families.

That you have such a visceral reaction, and haven't felt able to let yourself stay and learn to feel safe with your IL, says to me that you need some extra help with this.

Are your able to explain to your IL and that it's your issue, not theirs?

Hi, it's taken me a long time to get to this point of even being able to consider that my mother might not have been a very good one... however every time I think I am beginning to accept it I start to question whether I'm being unfair or self indulgent or over the top.... a lot has happened in our relationship which looking back has felt like emotional manipulation/control - the latest is that I've recently moved away from where she lives and am expecting my second baby in the next week. During the move (we sold almost everything we owned) she caused a massive argument and involve me my father because I'd sold a dress she'd given me for my daughter which she'd not worn and grown out of (dress was a standard high street dress that had fit during the heat wave and wasn't appropriate- thick cord) this argument meant she didn't speak to me for over a week.

We've now moved abroad and bought a business and she is almost disappointed that the purchase has gone through - the latest is that I had to make a choice between an Elective caeserean or trying a VBAC. I'd just had an appointment with the midwife and chosen the elective but was waiting to hear on doctors appointments to discuss in more detail. My mother was hassling me daily for updates and when I asked her to stop she told me that the birth affected her as much as me and she had a right to know and I wouldn't know until I was a grandparent. Is this true? I feel like I'm being selfish withholding information from her but at the same time her behaviour in the past (with my first child she had hysterics in the hospital over the name) has meant that this time I don't want her in the hospital at all. She's not taken that news well at all- demanding to know if ln laws will be allowed and not her.... I could go on there is so much but there's a nagging voice in my head telling me I'm being unfair and she just wants the close relationship we had (but I sometimes find it hard to ascertain if we had one or if it was just because I pandered to her)

It's so hard to tell when I'm being unfair or if her behaviour is ridiculous. She suffers from extreme anxiety which she will not seek treatment for and won't really admit to but instead expects everyone to accept and behave in ways to reassure. So part of me feels I should make massive allowances for that but then i struggle to when it always has such a huge impact on me. Additionally I'm a people pleaser so I hate thinking I've upset her even if she's upset me! Is thisnjust a normal fact or is my perception completely skewed?!

NotWrong I would agree that you need some sort of help to get through this. I mean, this is a totally unqualified opinion, but it sounds like PTSD or also Complex PTSD and there are definitely counselling techniques such as EMDR.
Ironically, as your FIL is ill, you might find it easier to cope with Christmas this year as there will be an identifiable source of stress. Otherwise, could you go but make sure that you have an option to get out if you can't cope with it? Could you identify the specific triggers and avoid them? (For example I can deal with the actual big day, but what really freaks me is that breakfast hanging around period, because that's when my mother would usually kick off).

I think what you can't do is grit your teeth and make more effort and make it be OK for you, much as you might want to.

basbousa feeling shame at questioning whether your childhood was dysfunctional is very normal for people from dysfunctional and abusive backgrounds.

the birth affected her as much as me
Have you ever read about Narcissistic Personality Disorder ? I would also recommend People Of The Lie by M. Scott Peck - some of the early case studies in there might sound familiar.

I sometimes find it hard to ascertain if we had one or if it was just because I pandered to her

Bingo - it was likely a one sided relationship in which you did all the pandering, all the work, to smooth over her anxiety and protect her from ever having to feel any emotions that she doesn't like. No wonder she is so attached to you. But that doesn't mean that you have to enable this. I'm fond of this way of putting it: you don't have to set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. Your mother has anxiety (so did my mum) that she chooses not to get help for (ditto) because you know what? If she did, they would teach her methods for managing her own anxiety and she wouldn't want that, because it would take effort, and not feel very good. She much prefers dealing with her own negative emotions by projecting everything onto you and finding in your behaviour, reasons for every passing negative feeling she has.
I'm not surprised you're a people pleaser, that's common too - I wonder if you've ever looked into codependency? Your mother's trained you to be hypervigilant to her moods (and other people's, too) and to manage her, and that's a hard habit to break. I would suggest you put your mother on an information diet - you can use the grey rock method to make your interactions with her more boring and make sure you don't give her information she can use to get at you and create more drama.

Congratulations on the move, as well - that should make life a bit easier but you'll be getting an extinction burst of bother from her just now as she struggles to get her needs for control and drama met. She'll push for lots of contact, phone calls etc, and you should try to resist - although bear in mind you can cut down the frequency of your interaction whenever you like, no matter what she thinks.

Thanks @toomuchtooold i began reading a book about narcissistic mothers but found it too painful to continue a while ago, I might look it out now and try again. Often I've come to think 'this isn't normal' or 'this is too much' but then I think oh well so many have had it so much worse and from the outside you'd think we had a great relationship. It's so hard because I have so many friends with great relationships or normal relationships with their mothers who often excuse mines behaviour or brush it off which then makes me question whether I'm over reacting (although I've come to realise it's often because they can't imagine their parent behaving that way or that she must be a rational person with rational reasoning so there must be an excuse) I think I just feel so angry that as I've got older she's taken so many important life events and made them about her (arguments on graduations, weddings, engagements, births) and I've always thought it's because I've been unreasonable but now looking back and reassessing I don't think I have been. My father is a complete enabler which makes it worse because she has him to back her up whenever she's being over the top. I've had two years of CBT due to a particularly abusive relationship which is what triggered the process of me questioning if our relationship was normal... after each session she'd demand to know if we'd discussed her and what we'd talked about. I just wonder if I'll ever stop feeling angry and just accept the relationship for what it is- every time I feel I might then she'll do something else or an event will happen which will remind me of things she's said/done and the anger begins all over again! I have already begun the low information and not replying immediately to messages/calls or telling her every minute detail - on the one hand it makes me sad but on the other I know deep down it's for my own sanity as much as anything else! This is the first time I have ever put my foot down with her and insisted on things (not being present for the birth for example) and she's taken to speaking to a sibling instead which has in turn meant they are now angry at me because they now have to deal with her and haven't before because it's always fallen to me to placate her- part of me just thinks tough you can have a turn but then I just feel really sad that the relationship with my mother is breaking down and there's not much I can do to salvage it! They are very wealthy and she has always been very generous with money which I have always been grateful for but now I can't help but wonder how much of that was control (for the move for example we needed a bridging loan between house sale/purchase and she just sat back and watched because she clearly hoped it would fall through and we wouldn't be able to move away - we lived just up the road - I would
Never have expected her to lend us the money but when we got the finance she called me up to tell me she would have lent it if we'd only asked- it's this that confuses me because I would never have asked her especially as she was so negative over the move in the first place but it was like she was annoyed that we'd managed something without needing her input) likewise when we moved closer to her she made it the easiest thing in the world helping out with everything which at the time I thought was just because we had a great relationship but now I wonder if we'd been moving house to somewhere else if she would have facilitated it quite so easily. It's exhausting reexamining everything under a microscope and questioning it and I want to stop but don't seem able to! Sorry turned into a rant!

It's far from a rant, Basbousa. It's just a very clear explanation of the difficulties you face and echoes much of my relationship with my mother (and father). Normal family life might well sometimes need a little compromise and tolerance but it shouldn't have to be like picking your way through a minefield every day with a blindfold on, should it? I wish you only the very best with your new life and new business and new family.

I've been reading Stately Homes for some time now - never had the courage to post before, but it has helped me so much and I thank everyone on here for sharing such painful experiences with so much honesty and courage.

@SingingLily you're right I think that's a massive sticking point for me which is I don't know where the line is between normal compromise and just going completely overboard to keep the peace, sacrificing my own wants/wishes in the process. I've realised I do this in my own relationships and it has also led to me possibly expecting more from people because I think 'well I'd do that so why won't they' when in reality what I'm doing isn't actually a reasonable thing to do, I'm doing it as a result of needing to please and avoid conflict. It just feels like such a long road to be on, and one I don't know if I'll ever be off because I on the one hand blame myself for not being the person she wants me to be, but on the other hand feel angry she can't accept that I wouldn't be happy being the person she wants me to be.... I've also only recently realised how I will never be enough for her because I'm at battling with her anxiety constantly so once I make one achievement it's on to the next- this has turned me into a massive over achiever who feels like I've let everyone down if I'm not the best! I definitely need to put boundaries in place and stick to them but the guilt is overwhelming. So hard isn't it?!

@basbousa

I've been lurking on this thread for a while now but have identified so strongly with everything you have written that I had to say so...especially with regards to your feeling of being unsure what is normal/abnormal/appropriate and what other people would do and is what we would do the right thing or is that just something we would do...i too feel that so heavily, every day. I wonder at the world around me and my place in it constantly. You are very eloquent on your current position whereas I feel so new...i went into therapy a while ago about my marriage (or so I thought) but I have ended up talking to the therapist primarily about my mother, which I just wasn't expecting. She is a lovely grandma to my children and primarily loving and caring towards me but much of it is with an undercurrent of something I am still unable to either put a finger on, or quite believe.

I too need to please, and avoid conflict, desperately. Just like your mum, my mum will get annoyed with ME that I am annoyed with HER and then I end up feeling like I'VE done something wrong and she will basically stonewall me until she feels enough time has passed. She is never, ever in the wrong.

My relationship with my mother has tanked since I had my children and moved into a really nice house fairly close to hers. I'm certain that some part of her hates that I'm charge now (in my home anyway) , and doing ok under my own steam. It chimes with what you say about your mother being annoyed that you managed something without needing her input.

Reading this thread has brought about so many little epiphanies for me...so many "aha!" moments where I've seen clearly what was and is going on between us for the first time.

I will sound like a teenager here but a beautiful album I have been listening to lately has lyrics that feel as if they were written for me...

"I'm in the backseat of my body / I'm just steering my life in the video game"

and

"I'm constantly repenting for a difficult mind"

The first resonates so much because its how I feel about having no sense of "normal"...

The second one resonates as I have been told so many times that I am oversensitive, irrational, making a big deal out of nothing, touchy, dramatic...it's always been something wrong with me and my mind, a problem that needs fixing.

I wish you all the best with your birth and new baby, @babousa. I hope you manage to relax, in some small way, and enjoy it, even though it sounds like you will have lots to make you do the opposite. I send lots of good wishes your way. I second @singinglily too. There is so much bravery, honesty and straightforwardness on this thread and it is beyond admirable and helpful.

Yes, it's exhausting, basbousa, and no matter how much you give or how hard you try, that hypercritical little voice in your head still manages to pick holes in it all. Sadly, we've been conditioned from birth, haven't we? I'm going to make a guess here - are you an over-achiever who also feels like a fraud, unworthy of success? If so, ditto. I remember only too well coming home from school at the end of each year with my report card (I didn't go to school in the UK) and an average mark of 98%. The other kids, the lucky ones with loving families, were given praise and presents by their proud parents just for achieving a pass mark of 50%. That was alien to me. All I ever got was indifference and a dismissive "What happened to the other 2%?", year after year. When I was much older, I told my parents how hurtful that had been, how important it had been to me as a child to have their approval. Big mistake. They'd only said it "as a joke", you see; how typical of me, they said, to be so over-sensitive, making such a big fuss over a silly little joke. They were quite offended. (You're not alone, Lotsofworries...)

Like you, I keep thinking that so many on here have had it so much worse. There are no visible bruises to show for a lifetime of emotional abuse but even so, it's still damage - cumulative damage - and it colours everything. My husband says I've spent my whole life searching for the other 2%.

Toomuchtooold put it in a nutshell; you don't have to set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. Your mother isn't the one with the problem. She IS the problem. And she won't change. All you can do - all any of us can do - is change the way you respond. I think I might be a little further down that road and if it is of any comfort to you, it does get easier. There are still times when the hurt and anger sideswipe me but they get fewer. Chin up, keep going and

I'm sorry, just thinking on my post above and have to get this down...I have described her as a lovely grandma and she is, but she is also not in some ways...she will rarely do anything with my children that takes her out of her comfort zone (and DEFINITELY won't do it if it's something I particularly want her to do with them) and makes many decisions based on what is best for her, not them...and I have noticed her being weirdly, subtly critical to my daughter in a way that I think I remember from my own childhood. And also, I have described her as being loving and caring towards me but at the same time she can also be childish and histrionic and very dismissive of me and my feelings/thoughts/needs and she undermines me regularly as a parent. She is a weird mix of low self-esteem/anxiety and...singing her own praises?! She is very quick to tell you how wonderful she is, how someone said she was wonderful, how no one else does the nice things she does, how I am not normal to reject the way she wants to help me (which I often do as I find it infantilising).

Which is she? A goodie or a baddie?! I'm half serious!

I'm also sorry for ranting and writing super long posts. This thread has brought up weird feelings in me.