"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Sorry my bold didn't work, that first but is your writing. I find this activity really useful to help me understand family trauma and it's effects.

Draw out your family tree and then write these labels next to the people they apply to.

@kafeundkuchen you dont have to be abused physically or sexually or legally (whatever that means) to have terrible long lasting damage. All those things you have described are horrendous and in no way your fault!
Even one of those incidents on its own could cause long lasting damage. You need to realise this and that its not your fault!

@butterfly56 Luckily my brother and i have an unsaid agreement not to mention her/ i ask anything. But sometimes she still comes up!!
He is the golden child but thats not stopped us being very close and he has his own problems with her.
I plan to create loads of new traditions with my family 😊 just theres so much that reminds me of her.

@Napssavelives

What you describe is very similar to what happened to DSis and me when we were growing up. Our F was part of a paedophile network. (He's now passed away thankfully.)

Your mother sounds like mine, though she never realised how unapproachable she was, she was just absorbed in her business affairs. She only got involved in our lives when we were in trouble. She says she didn't know anything, and claims complete ignorance, even of things that we know she knew.

I'm currently on a waiting list for EMDR therapy, I have complex PTSD and I'll probably be on medication for life. But I've managed to create a nice life with my DH and 2 adopted DDs.

You're welcome to PM me, if you feel that would help. 

@Lizzie48 see I told my mum, she just didn’t believe me . I cut contact with her a year ago, couldn’t take anymore of her lies and gaslighting. There is a part of me that feels really alone having none of my family around but I need to remind myself how lucky I am. Have an amazing dh, 2 Children and another on the way. I have good friends, a good career. Very lucky. Unfortunately that doesn’t always fill the hole of having 2 incompetent parents and obviously been so unlovable that they would do this.

@Napssavelives 

That really is awful, that your mother didn't believe you. It's probably more the case that she was deep in denial.

With my DM, it's always been more a case of gaslighting, making us believe an alternate reality. For example, she says she stopped our F from smacking us too hard, whereas in reality she didn't, she accused us of crying for nothing. So we had no reason to think she would put us first. She never had before.

I don't know why, the flowers emoji isn't working. The intention was there. 

I wonder if my kids will be on a forum entitled "but we took you to theme parks" in 20-30 years time?

Never feel at home on mumsnet more than when reading these stately home threads. Literally can relate so much to so many of your stories just having a read...

I'm actually fuming at my DM this week. She sent an email to my DH asking if he would consider helping handle my DB's finances, because he's all alone and does really care about me and the girls. We had already said no to this.

Even worse, she told him not to trouble me with this (it's true that I'm suffering badly with depression and PTSD right now). We don't keep secrets from each other, though. And my DH has a lot going on in his life right now, apart from my MH issues, we have our 2 adopted DDs, and we're waiting for therapy for DD1 for her Attachment Disorder and coping with her violent meltdowns and defiance. She rarely gets to sleep before 10:30pm.

My DB has recently been diagnosed as autistic as well as having MH issues, so decisions will have to be made for when my DM is no longer around or incapacitated (she's 79), but it's definitely not a responsibility we're in a position to take on. But she won't let it go.

After a period of NC both my parents are (for better or worse) back in my life. Cue ensuing drama and needless abuse under the guise of "concern" for the next however long until they push me to go NC again... Well I hope not.
I have finally had an admission that they fucked up my childhood... A breakthrough or not I don't know

I think my brother might be a narc, can someone give me some traits, examples?

Tell me what you think about this:

He's very focused on himself, rarely asks questions about the other person in conversation unless he wants something.

He has bouts of rage, usually directed at women, if they don't do exactly what he wants.

On the outside he's very charming, funny, an entertainer, good looking.

He creates huge dramas (by way of other events) if the attention seems to be on someone else e.g. sister is visiting parents, dB will start a problem relating to an unrelated event that happened years ago. It usually seems like a separate thing but after observing, his timing is spot on with occasions where he might not be the focus.

Forgot to say,

He seems to have a cycle in relationships of sickly sweet to going out a lot with no consideration to his partner then when they get annoyed becomes volatile and aggressive and eventually the partner gets rid.

grey

I hope you stay well away from him. Does your brother have any empathy; narcissists are devoid of this emotion. You do realise as well that it is not possible any to have a relationship with a narcissist.

His behaviour in relationships sounds like the idealise, devalue, discard cycle so beloved of narcissists. I would certainly call him abusive towards others.

Signs and symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder:-

Grandiose sense of self-importance
Grandiosity is the defining characteristic of narcissism. More than just arrogance or vanity, grandiosity is an unrealistic sense of superiority. Narcissists believe they are unique or “special” and can only be understood by other special people. What’s more, they are too good for anything average or ordinary. They only want to associate and be associated with other high-status people, places, and things.

Narcissists also believe that they’re better than everyone else and expect to be recognized as such—even when they’ve done nothing to earn that recognition. They will often exaggerate or outright lie about their achievements and talents. And when they talk about work or relationships, all you’ll hear is how much they do, how great they are, and how lucky the people in their lives are to have them. They are the undisputed star and everyone else is at best a bit player.

Lives in a fantasy world that supports their delusions of grandeur
Since reality doesn’t support their grandiose view of themselves, narcissists live in a fantasy world propped up by distortion, self-deception, and magical thinking. They spin self-glorifying fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, attractiveness, and ideal love that make them feel special and in control. These fantasies protect them from feelings of inner emptiness and shame, so facts and opinions that contradict them are ignored or rationalized away. Anything that threatens to burst the fantasy bubble is met with extreme defensiveness and even rage, so those around the narcissist learn to tread carefully around their denial of reality

Needs constant praise and admiration
A narcissist’s sense of superiority is like a balloon that gradually loses air without a steady stream of applause and recognition to keep it inflated. The occasional compliment is not enough. Narcissists need constant food for their ego, so they surround themselves with people who are willing to cater to their obsessive craving for affirmation. These relationships are very one-sided. It’s all about what the admirer can do for the narcissist, never the other way around. And if there is ever an interruption or diminishment in the admirer’s attention and praise, the narcissist treats it as a betrayal.

Sense of entitlement
Because they consider themselves special, narcissists expect favorable treatment as their due. They truly believe that whatever they want, they should get. They also expect the people around them to automatically comply with their every wish and whim. That is their only value. If you don’t anticipate and meet their every need, then you’re useless. And if you have the nerve to defy their will or “selfishly” ask for something in return, prepare yourself for aggression, outrage, or the cold shoulder.
Exploits others without guilt or shame
Narcissists never develop the ability to identify with the feelings of others—to put themselves in other people’s shoes. In other words, they lack empathy. In many ways, they view the people in their lives as objects—there to serve their needs. As a consequence, they don’t think twice about taking advantage of others to achieve their own ends. Sometimes this interpersonal exploitation is malicious, but often it is simply oblivious. Narcissists simply don’t think about how their behavior affects others. And if you point it out, they still won’t truly get it. The only thing they understand is their own needs.

Frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others
Narcissists feel threatened whenever they encounter someone who appears to have something they lack—especially those who are confident and popular. They’re also threatened by people who don’t kowtow to them or who challenge them in any way. Their defense mechanism is contempt. The only way to neutralize the threat and prop up their own sagging ego is to put those people down. They may do it in a patronizing or dismissive way as if to demonstrate how little the other person means to them. Or they may go on the attack with insults, name-calling, bullying, and threats to force the other person back into line.

Thanks, I try to but it's very hard at the moment.

Lots of that rings true, I'm not sure about the empathy, he likes to befriend people who are struggling in some way so he looks like a Good Samaritan but it's all about glorifying himself. He will turn nasty if they don't play ball. He doesn't seem to have real empathy, only for himself. He turns every situation into him being a victim even if he has scared the living daylights out of everyone else.

Actually he always liked to rescue animals when he was younger so maybe that shows he has empathy.

That was probably about him glorifying himself too.

Hi grey,

Just to chip in here that there are also 'covert' narcissists too and whilst at their core they are exactly as Attila describes, lack of empathy, entitlement, rage, gaslighting etc. However they don't always present as 'grandiose' they can outwardly seem like empathetic people, caring, rescuers, they can be under-achievers and always play the victim.

Personally (and I have 2 in my family) they are even more tricky as the ' look at me, I'm great overt narcissist' are at least easier to spot!

There is a great you tube video on covert narcissts, can't do links but if you cut and paste this into your browser it will come up!

I only add this as it took me ages to figure out what was going on in my family as these individuals did not always talk like a narcisst and did things you wouldn't think of (one works in care, looks after sick animals etc) - this rang a bell with some of what you had written about your brother . The reason they do this is that their false image is everything, it is in fact all they have, so they do these outward shows of being a great person to maintain their image - and boy do they talk about it, social media etc. But they will NEVER do a kind thing unless it is for gain or recognition.

@dazedandconfused18
That's the problem in my family at its heart is an extreme covert narcissist. She comes across as carer/rescuer etc. But is actually the one pulling everyone's strings...

Thanks dazed,

I've suspected for a while but it's very hard to work out like you say, especially with the rest of the family in denial and making excuses. It dawned on me one day when he had been horrible to me and then shouted at mum, only after loads of family members found out and suggested he apologize, did he come and apologize in a way that massively dismissed just how badly he'd behaved. I realized then it was all for show and there was no remorse there at all. After that day I decided I wanted nothing more to do with him, I began to notice more and more how he orchestrated events (I.e. when I got married, he refused to come and then announced he was getting married the day before!) so he had a quicky marriage just to try and beat me to it!!

I will watch your link, thanks

Hi bumble and grey,
I know these people are master manipulators, it really messes with your head. Two main signs for me are 1. their words do not align with their actions. Covert Narcs maybe humble, caring and 'nice' in what they say (unlike overt ones) but their actions are like any narc selfish, disrespectful, entitled, they are always the victim and if they do a good deed it is for gain/image only. 2. Like any narc the rage at the slightest criticism is huge, and as they're aren't confident, they are more likely to involve as many friends and family as possible giving them a warped account of events and trying to get them to turn on you, rather than confronting you directly.
bubblebee - if you've gone NC before you've probably learnt enough to know they won't change, because they can't change, please don't open yourself up to another round of pain. Hope that doesn't sound harsh, it is well-meaning I promise.

I have a very difficult family, my mother had a nervous breakdown and was physically and emotionally abusive to me, my father has to control everything and everyone and becomes nasty if you stand up to him, my brother is an alcoholic. I now have a wonderful DP after divorcing my exh. So much has happened over the years that I just don’t know where to start. But I can say that their behaviour has left me as a mess. My DM has told me many times my DF didn’t want children and doesn’t care if he sees me or not. You never know which way they will behave on any given day and DP has said he watches my personality change when I’m around them becoming nervy and guarded hardly speaking.

I am dreading Christmas, for back ground I walked out on my exh 4 years ago after a very long and not always happy marriage. Parents thought he was great initially until he started standing up to them (on one occasion after they told our 14 year old that I was mentally ill, which I wasn’t). Any way I walked out in the April and at Christmas I was alone because they invited stbxh round for Christmas as they were worried about my DD. So let it go even though I spent Christmas alone while they all played happy families and the next year I invited them, they came they ate and left immediately which was rude. DM has commented several times this year how miserable last Christmas was as DB stayed away and I had bought a new home with DP and we wanted Christmas in it and didn’t want the rudeness of them turning up eating and leaving again. DP, DD and Dd BF are spending Christmas this year together, I am looking forward to it but know there will be fireworks.

These people ruined DD graduation last year by creating drama, being rude to people, screaming in my face at the photo sessions afterwards and both verbally abused me for the hour long drive back to my home where they had stayed the night. I suffered a torrent of abuse including being called names, a liar etc and being blamed for my dad having no relationship with his brother (not my fault he played his mind games on his DB and they blew up in his face)

DP and I want to marry, I see so many happy families and think why can’t i have that? Why can’t I have a wonderful wedding with my family and friends? But I know I can’t as y DP will ruin it if they come, which means we have to go away somewhere and pretend it’s what we want having a tiny wedding with no one there. Bearing in mind my first wedding my DF didn’t give me away as it felt wrong, he hadn’t spoken to me for nearly 2 years despite us living in the same house, so my 21st birthday, engagement, wedding he wasn’t talking to me, my crime was I had said I was looking for a place of my own!

Hey everyone. I posted earlier in Relationships and the lovely @AttilaTheMeerkat suggested I pop in here.

So apologies in advance for bad Mumsnet form by virtually copying and pasting my other post in this thread...

I've been NC with my mother since June 2017. I haven't seen her in person since early 2015. I went 'grey rock' for years without realising that was what I was doing – and detached from her to the point where I've gradually physically moved further and further away and we now live on opposite sides of the planet!

I went NC to take the time to work through some very strong feelings that were triggered by a number of life events (all pretty outing and not particularly relevant to the thread). I had flashbacks, waves of overpowering emotions and memories at very inconvenient times, and I think finally just losing my shit when she called me on her way home from self-discharging from hospital against doctor's orders, walking down the road with her IV, having been in for a week after some kind of heart attack and not letting me know.

I haven't missed her at all, until recently. I spent a little while thinking I was missing her, and then realised I was grieving the mother-daughter relationship that I now know I'm never going to have.

Then that sensation went away again, and I'm now finding myself feeling a blend of feelings: a bit of guilt for being out of touch with her, a bit of sadness that she's hardly tried get in touch with me either, and these new waves of sadness and memories of the good times we used to share.

Because as much as I grew up in an abusive situation, we also had some amazing times, and a really wonderful relationship in the moments when she was healthy and well. She struggled HARD mothering me, and did an incredible job in a lot of ways. She just also couldn't cope with life, and the fallout landed on me.

She has a blend of mental health issues and is generally a royal chaotic pain in the butt, swinging between total helplessness and overpowering mania. Most people adore her - she's incredibly charming and fun and sparky – but in me she sets off all the terrors of my childhood, when that charm and fun would transform into snarling and violence and inconsolable tantrums, etc etc.

So now I'm really torn – knowing that what she sets off in me is built-in childhood instinct and she can't 'get me' any more, I want to be able to have some kind of a relationship with her. She's not abusive to me now as an adult, just incredibly self-centred and irresponsible, and that grinds me down.

I also can see very clearly (now that I have the perspective of an adult) where her abusive behaviour originated and how much pain she was in as I was growing up. That doesn't excuse her behaviour, but it does elicit enormous empathy in me that's hard to ignore.

Before I went NC I did explain to her some of my reasoning (albeit via email), and she did acknowledge what I had said. She said it was really hard to read and she remembered a lot differently, but that my experience was my experience and she wouldn't tell me I was wrong. And that's a HUGE leap forward from when she used to scream in my face that I was a liar... so I guess I have some hope, however misguided, that she's mellowed with age.

But I also now have no idea how to initiate contact again after so much time – I feel bound to explain why I've been NC and I know that if I try, I'll go all jelly-brained again and won't be able to.

How do I know if I'm 'ready' to reinitiate contact? And if I do, what the hell do I say?! I don't want to play with her, going NC and then coming back and then going NC again.

And apologies for the jumbled nature of this post – it's a pretty accurate reflection of what happens to the inside of my head when I think about this!

@ladybee28 it sounds to me like you had really valid and sensible reasons for going no contact/grey rock all those years. The way you describe the wave of emotions she triggers makes me think it might be worth talking to a therapist about it in more depth, away from her and understanding exactly where you are in relation to her.

@ScabbyHorse - thanks. I have talked to therapists a number of times over the years but I only ever seem to get so far. I feel like I've talked it all to death!

I'm a pretty intellectual person, so I can 'theorise' a lot and see what's going on psychologically for me very quickly, which seems to be what happens for me over and over in therapy.

I can understand a lot and can talk insightfully about it all, but it doesn't FEEL different. It's like all the change happens in my brain, but my body doesn't follow... does that make sense?

@ladybee28 I know what you mean about intellectualising as I do the same thing. I spend hours reading and 'researching' this stuff and find it very difficult to say how I'm actually feeling. It must be a kind of defence mechanism I suppose, for me anyway. And maybe this stuff just is very very hard to deal with! Can you put up with having a relationship again with your mother if it yet again doesn't give you what you need? Even as adults, we still need our parents. And it sounds like her needs always came before yours even as a child.

@dazedandconfused18

I know I should know better but actually had it out with DM and she apologised to me. Said I was right. First time ever.
I had to go NC because she behaved very badly and turned my family against me too by lying and screwing with their heads.

She acts like a martyr, Saint bloody whatever, honestly, but it does feel like we are slowly turning a page. I am being so strict with my boundaries and I will not take it from her anymore. I think she knows this. But by building a bridge with her I may get some family back in my life. She is the gate keeper and although our relationship is complex she does seem to want to make up from the past and get to know one of my children and get to know the other one again.

I am wary and tread lightly but NC whilst protecting me in some ways also restricted me as I said she is the gate keeper.

NC with my Dad was unfair. He and DM have been divorced for many years and our row was separate, and even when we fell out he kept things to himself as Id asked him and showed me respect even from a distance, although he himself has had to go NC with DM his exW as she bullied him while I was NC with her for information about me.

Its been so hard honesty all my family family friends etc. Except my dads side all sided with DM and I lost a large chunk of the people in my life because they think she is wonderful so I must be the one in the wrong.

They do not see how she treats me. In most other areas she plays victim or rescuer, with me she is the perpetrator. She bullies me, belittles me and makes me feel like crap but so far things have been a bit better. I think after a long period of NC she now knows she can't fuck with me the way she did.