Help me answer a text from my ex

[southernharp]

My ex h left about 18 months ago. It then transpired that he had an OW. Same old, same old script. She was a casual friend of mine and his work colleague. I detest them both for all the deceit and for their casual treatment of me after a 25 year relationship. She doesn’tt even have the good grace to look even remotely sheepish if I see her and looks at me with utter distain.

He wants to take the kids away for 10 days in January on a multi day river kayaking trip. My kids are 11 year old twins. This will involve a significant journey there and back, requiring en route stays in hotels, motels, whatever. She will be going too. It makes me feel physically sick to think of her sharing a room with my kids, eating dinner with them every evening, having breakfast with them every morning, sharing a kayak with one of them, basically acting like she is their Mum. It feels like she came to my home as a friend, looked at my life and thought “that’s what I want”.

I know that I can’t outright refuse the trip and. I have to let them go. I have been stalling and largely ignoring his hectoring texts but I will need to give an answer at some point. I am so reluctant to say that’s fine, as I am not at all fine with it. I don’t want him to be any under any illusion that I am cool with this and that I condone his relationship with this woman. Can anyone help me word a text in reply?

How long ago was the break up OP? That would be key to my letting them go or not?

Sorry I just saw that it was 18 months ago. TBH I would not let them go. I would expect a dad who left his family to prioritise time with his kids ALONE. To help them navigate the change in their lives and he will have to introduce her and she may have to be there for good, but the trip is ultimately for themselves and the kids are an afterthought. If he loves his kids, he should give them time and the time he gives should be within a new normal - not an exciting trip somewhere. You will be called petty by them but to to be honest who gives a shit what they think.

I think the ow in this scenario would be slaughtered on mumsnet. Better off on nethuns. And the response you suggested would be reviled.

I would just text back 'k.....and nothing else.

I hate to be so judgemental. I am the product of a completely disfunctional family where my mum never got over the fact that my dad met someone else. She refused to communicate with him about anything made us make all sorts of inappropriate choices but asking what we wanted when we were:
A) too young to decide and to know what was best
B) too frightened to upset her by saying anything other than what we thought she wanted us to say

Now I'm a stepparent and my DSDs mother is nothing short of poisonous and uses the same sorts of lines that have been trotted out on this thread.

Reading this through is making me feel desperately sad for your twins. They love their dad and they deserve for the two people who brought them into the world to work together to give them a childhood that is free from anxiety. Sure your ex was a dick to leave the family unit but it has happened. The kids need to be at the centre of all of this so stop fucking them up even more than their dad did when he left and behave like a reasonable parent. They are 11 they live with you. The response should be:

Of course the boys can go. Can you send me a plan of where you'll be when and also let me know when you'll pick them up and drop them back home. Please can you make sure they have everything they need for the trip.

Please please pay some attention to any im saying - your kids will thank you for it when they're older. My DSD is 18 now and very open with me about her parents behaviours - she told me last week that she was really grateful to me because she knew I never tried to use her to 'score points'. TBH I think I'll end up having a more positive relationship with her than either of her parents will.

Southernharp, ignore. Some people have circuit boards where most others have empathy.

Well said heidiwine

That’s exactly what I’ve seen with some of my DD’s friends when feel torn in half by their parents.

I too have parents that are divorced but have not been affected like that. There’s no need for it.

Nobody’s saying you can’t be devastated and that you shouldn’t find it hard, just that co-parenting is more important and you need to find another way to cope with your devastation.

* Can you ask to clarify dates because you have plane tickets to buy for your child free holiday? Fake a new, mysterious life they know nothing about even if it's too early to want one.*
Don’t do that. They’d only quiz the twins about your secret new life and would either find out it’s all lies or, worse than that, unnerve the twins about their Mum having secrets and waiting until they’ve gone to have her fun. Either way not what you want for them, surely?

Of course, you could take the kids on the same holiday just before so they're extra exhausted, irritable and over it by the time they go with their dad

Again, this will end up being unfair on the twins. How many of us would chose this for ourselves? Then don’t chose it for 11 year olds who have no choice. Also the ex will stop telling you details of trips to prevent it happening again. Is that what you want the op to deal with?

Of course the boys can go. Can you send me a plan of where you'll be when and also let me know when you'll pick them up and drop them back home. Please can you make sure they have everything they need for the trip

Perfect.

I think there are two issues here:
One: How you respond to the request
Two: How you feel about the betrayal and how you move forward.

Response: Be business like, to the point and don't leave any room for negotiation, clarification. I know you don't want to tell him what the term dates are but this requires you telling him to work it out and them waiting for him to confirm. Make your own plans, tell him what his options are within those plans. Don't discuss your plans while they are away or your plans while they are with you. Just stick to the words 'These are the dates',

REPLY: Arrangements out for Summer Holidays. I shall have them for the first three weeks and you can have them for the second three weeks, from Saturday 6th January until Saturday 27th January. Please confirm the dates before 10th November.

As for number two, how you deal with the fall out of the break up, your feelings about your ex and his new partner. This is truly difficult. Whatever you say to him will hurt you and won't make him change his mind. You cannot make him feel remorse, much as you wish he would.

Dear lady, concentrate on your healing and moving forward. Find safe places to discuss your feelings but find peace with the understanding that he is who he is and he will not change. Your children will be in no doubt who their mother is and that they are loved unconditionally by you.

I really do understand that you don't want him to think you are cool with it but in his eyes, he sees that you need to just suck it up and get used to it.

REPLY: 'What you in do in your time with our children is your own business. I am saddened by the fact that you never found the time or money to do such things with the children before. I would prefer that you took the time to spend this with your children and to build a relationship with them, however you have made it clear that that is not your priority.'

Keep communication to a minimum. 'That is not your concern.' 'I will keep you informed as necessary.'

Take care and wrap yourself in the protection of your friends and allow yourself to heal without allowing him to hurt you anymore or to see that you are hurting. I know it feels like you are giving in and letting him win by not telling him that his behaviour is not OK but.... it won't change the outcome and the person most hurt by it is you. Protect yourself.

If you have asked the kids and they are unsure that is your answer to him.
Could try something like

"Spoke with kids they are unsure. They are thinking it over. They must NOT be hassled be you. I do not want it discussed with them as they may feel pressured to please you and we both know that is unfair. Likewise I will not try to sway them. We both onky want what is best for them. They will make they final devision."

Put you as the bigger man so to speak. As you are in no way preventing but also not saying yeah it's all great.

dear ex

"I am delighted you two are taking the twins for such a wonderful adventure, of course they can go. I have a few plans of my own."

It will drive them both mad that you are being nice and they will wonder what your plans are. They don't need to know you are actually pissed off.

The kids being unsure is neither here nor there. It's a family holiday with their father. They are 11. It's not a choice.

Unless you want to use them to get at your ex, then by all means focus on whether they want to go or not. 😢

Heidi is the best post on this thread.

It should not be the kids decision, they are 11

I’d have liked the decision at that age, especially if I was struggling with the OW. They may find it hard to judge how their loyalties lie, and they may actually feel pretty neutral about her, but either way, it’s a big trip that they’re not used to, and it’s without the most important person in their world: their mother.

I like what @Merida83 has just written (above) because it’s the truth.

People who cheat know they shouldn’t and they know its thought badly of, for the very reason that it hurts people. People who are innocents. Op, you don’t have to spell out the obvious, they will know. It’s a common blueprint and it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure it out. You’re hurt. We all would be. The cheating ex would be just as hurt. The OW would be just as hurt. We all would.

The twins must also feel hurt. Perhaps they express it, perhaps they don’t. But you can be sure they know a lot more about what’s going on than you give them credit for. I know I did when I was that age.

If you help yourself heal your hurt, and manage things until that time comes, you’ll be like a guiding star to your DC. Win-win.

Letting them know you disapprove won’t make them feel guilty. They’ve already justified it to themselves, quite wrongly of course, but it doesn’t stop them believing their own story. Nothing you or I can say will change that. Showing how you feel won’t change that. Unfortunately (and most unfairly) it will make you look like the bad guy. Isn’t it crazy? As if you haven’t had enough injustice done to you already.

Heidi is the best post on this thread.
Absolutely.

You're an adult. They are children. Stop putting them in the middle of this. You hate the OW, they may not. They should not feel obliged to hate her to make you happy.

I also had 2 parents who just used me as a pawn in their post-split battle. Do not do the same to your DC. You can rage as much as you want in private, but in front of the DC you have to stay calm and polite about ExH and OW. If you do not do this, everybody loses in the long term.

Hmm, I will go against the grain slightly here. My dd1 has flat out said she doesn’t want to spend time with my ex and his girlfriend (a woman who was my best friend before I found out what had been going on). She isn’t comfortable with it, she is embarrassed by it all (it’s been fairly public as it decimated a whole friendship group) and she just isn’t interested. Dd2 is a bit more open to it but not entirely happy and both have said in no uncertain terms that they do not want to spend time with the woman’s kids (who were in the same classes as them but who they weren’t really friends with). They are 10 and nearly 12. Should I disregard everything they have said and feel about the situation then? To ease their Dads life? Should I encourage them to do something they don’t want to? They know their own minds. Why would they want to spend family time with kids they aren’t keen on, and a woman they know-because they aren’t stupid, not because of anything I’ve said-has done something pretty terrible to their mum?

We are also 18 months on. I don’t see dd1 being willing to go on holiday with the woman in my case at this stage.It is possible the the kids here actually don’t feel comfortable enough with this woman just yet...

Lots of people have said ‘you will ruin the kids lives by forcing them to choose etc etc’. the flip side of it surely should be though that the Dad is also forcing them to choose by bringing this person into their lives and making them share their time with him with her... I’ve never understood why so many people think the ‘wronged party’ for want of a better phrase, has to just suck it up. Why is it never the person that chose to have the affair or whatever, the person that just has to suck it up? Why can’t they keep their new life with the ow or om separate from their family life with the kids if needed and suck that up then?Genuine question....it wouldn’t result in the ‘warring parents’ scenario that is clearly So damaging to kids...why is it never pushed as an option or an alternative to this scenario here-a woman who, not even that long ago, has lost her life as she knew it through no fault of her own, having to be apart for 10 days from her kids (hard enough anyway) and on top know that they are with someone who has done her a massive wrongdoing.

I actually don’t think that replying with a practical answer or alluding to some new life you have now will ‘drive them mad’ either however much you’d like to think so.The truth is they won’t give a shit either way. The only crumb of comfort from that response is that they can’t level accusations of you being a bitter cow at you. That won’t make this any better for you now but maybe it will later on?

I feel for you op. I really do.
You have a right to be angry and sad. 18 months is not a long time to process this sort of betrayal at all. It’s like a blunt trauma when it happens to you. And then like pain after pain when you have to send your children-the most important thing in your life-off with the people that inflicted it.

The ONLY response is 'Permission granted' or one where there is NOTHING to infer your asking permission, seeking to find out if he'll address all the necessary preparations - it's ALL up to him - and her - to sort out, not you.

Focus on what the kids want NOT your upset, your utter distress, your loathing, your anger, your hatred - focus. on. the. kids.

But you are definitely entitled to have certain questions answered in advance when it comes to safety matters:

I would make any 'yes they can go' response a 'subject to the following' type of reply (with the entire focus on the kids, their enjoyment and their safety). I'd want to know the safety/supervision arrangements for the trip in terms of the organisers and how they guarantee safety before I would agree to them going - this is a water-based adventure and (having worked on water (not walked!!)) people and water can be a deadly combination. I'd ask for full details of that and as well as this I'd want not only their EHIC cards (or whatever they're called now) but also full accident and emergency insurance for the children for the holiday as often EHIC treatment only covers certain stuff and not things like air lifting to non-emergency care or intensive care (not that anything is likely to happen but (unless you know the area/type of trip already - which I'm thinking you might do) then you don't know if there'll be white water, what safety equipment is provided.

And lastly, can I just say, I hope the OW falls out of her kayak into some particularly cold and fast-moving water and is attacked by rogue otters .

Some posts above seem to imply that Op will be fucking up her kids?! Excuse me... did you not read the posts where she made it quite clear that in front of the children her feelings don’t show? She uses MN and her best friends couch as places to sound off.
I think it’s unfair to the OP to relate her situation to other situations you may have been involved in/have heard of.

But yes, to echo PPs. A long kayaking holiday with two kids that aren’t your own would certainly not be on top of my wish list! Let’s hope OW has a crappy time, feels neglected by her partner and yes, falls into a fast flowing stream

stormnigel you are absolutely right, but the issue is that the person who had the affair is usually incapable of putting the DC first and seeing them without the OW/OM.

The central issue is that what is right for OP in this situation is not what is right for the DC. Delaying permission to go and messing the exH around might make OP feel better, but it doesn't help the DC one bit. It puts them in the middle when exH is probably asking them what is going on, what has your mother said?

Try seeing it from the point of view that OW will have a much less fabulous holiday with two 11 year olds there, though I’m sure they are fantastic kids.

Your DC’s will have a great time and (maybe not so) deep down know their father and OW are dickheads.

Hey OP, did you send the text? what did you go with in the end, and more to the point, have you had a response? Hope you're doing ok.

Op. You don't have to accept her or like her. Noone is saying that. But for the sake of your kids, as they're the only ones who will be adversely affected by this, you have to make sure they know they are allowed to enjoy themselves guiltlesly with their father. As shit as it is, that's what you must do if you want your kids to be ok.

I don’t think that Heidi’s post is the best on the thread and it’s my thread so I decide. It is full of presumptions and misconceptions. First the twins aren’t both boys and my daughter enjoys her mummy time. We have a lot of fun and I trust and respect her. Second they have no idea that I am struggling with this dilemma so how am I possibly fucking them up?

Why the bloody hell should I send him a nice friendly message? Any agreement will say do what you must, make sure they are back at least two days before school begins. Or words to that effect. Since when does that tosser deserve friendliness?anyway Heidi, well done on being so spiffingly perfect with your DSD..have a gold star and don’t let the door bang your arse on the way out.

I have asked some questions about the trip and have checked some detail myself. There are many things of which he seems blissfully ignorant. I asked him how I would contact the kids and he said cellphone. There is no coverage for the whole of the river. I asked him if he was taking a spot tracker. He said no. Well he has to take some kind of tracker or PLB or else it is plain not happening. I asked what experience on water his lady friend has - he gave me some waffle about sea kayaking. No, she will have one of my children with her. I want to know exactly.