Didn't want to be back on here so soon

[greenberet]

After getting my last thread deleted but I have nowhere else to go _ I need to get this out

I need the X's agreement to take the kids on holiday ( not due to court order but country) and he has refused. Said he's thought about it and spoken to kids and doesn't agree.

wTF is wrong with him - the country is significant to me its where my mum was born - I've never been and I want to take the kids - I've always wanted to go and made the decision to do it after getting breast cancer i knew he was going to do this - he did this before during the divorce process and the solicitors were arguing over the finer points of it all - in the end I backed down because of the hassle - this wasn't even to this country just not uk.

I had wanted to go October half term - I had already changed the dates from earlier in the year due to not being right time with kids needing to revise etc and for one reason or another haven't got round to booking anything yet. Whether it was going to be possible I didn't know but thought I'd see what his reaction would be.

Right now I can't say how I feel I am too numb to cry - this is just one continual onslaught after another - I am supposed to be free of him -but he can still dish out the abuse every time

I would be on the floor if I hadn't expected it - but even so I'm pretty close. what is his fucking problem.i have once again lost the motivation to do anything - I had a hospital Procedure yesterday - this was enough to contend with.

Please those that have commented before and told me I am on some "pity party" please refrain from commenting - I do not need this. In fact I don't really care if I get no comments - this is my record of what's going on in my head and one day I shall put all my posts together - if you read thank you

The game is over - the penny has dropped - it all makes sense - I've got it - the x thought the kids and me are separate - this is something he said right at the very start of this - I could never get my head round this - didn't understand what he meant - I still don't get how he arrived at this - maybe something to do with the relationship with his own DM

I get why he is trying to destroy me - he wants the kids to CHOOSE him OVER me - then in his warped head he has won - except he hasn't has he? Because what he hasn't figured out is that in trying to destroy me he is destroying the kids - how many times have I said this - too many to count - except the mothers bond with her kids is instinctive - it's not something you can create - it's there right from the second they come into existence because the mother has to protect them eat the wrong foods and you risk harming them or loosing them, drink too much, smoke you risk harming them or loosing them, do the wrong things and you risk harming them or loosing them.

My kids were ivf - I'd already had an abortion- wrong place wrong time - was this my karma then? Probably - I lost one of the embryos - there were 3 started bleeding the night before confirmation of pregnancy. I was lucky two survived into my beautiful babies. I'd had many rounds of treatment to get to this point this was the last attempt.

So am I going to give up protecting my kids now - no bloody way but in my eagerness or desperation to do the right thing I'm causing them harm - all sense of reason has long gone because yes I'm desperate - desperate for them not to suffer like I have, desperate for them to know their true worth, regardless of what people do to them or say to them, to know that it is always ok to ask questions, to not always understand this does not make you inferior or stupid, this makes you wanting to learn more so that you can understand, you are increasing your knowledge in doing so.

To not fear people in authority or superior to you - they may have most of the answers but not all - their knowledge, capability is limited by their own experience, there are people in this world who are meant to help others, to teach them stuff by their experience by their unique set of circumstances - if you are clever you learn and everyone progresses, if you are ignorant you refuse or are incapable of looking at someone else's perspective because it is not your own and your ego is fragile and if you are stupid you think you know best, worse than this you use that experience to further your own development without giving the other person credit - solicitors this is you!

So my Dd told me last night x has increased her mobile phone coverage from 3G to 5g - probably something she has been asking for for months - and you see it's all in the timing with him - waits for the right moment to either destroy or manipulate - an extra Xmas pressie here just for Dd -messing with her mind - well he can't be that bad can he he's just increased my phone, maybe I was wrong about him, maybe he cares for me after all - been here, got the t shirt the film and the bloody mug - but the one crucial point - he doesn't do it when Dd asks - it's not in her timing it's his -always his.

But he can't read people's minds like he thinks he can - he knows I see stuff that isn't there but he doesn't get how - he thinks I must manipulate influence because how else can I do it. The answer to this is I just can!

He thinks I am influencing the Dd not to see him - no I am not - he did this all of his own back - by choosing OW over her! By not listening to what the kids tell him what the kids want and then doing the complete bloody opposite.

I listen I may not put into action straight away but I give them what they ask for when it matters -even if it means sacrificing myself - because this is what mothers do - yes I get it wrong sometimes I know this I see it - but I get there in the end - hopefully.

The thing is I never expected him to be perfect - I know we all have faults, that we all make mistakes that we get it wrong sometimes - but I do expect people to admit they have got it wrong - but you see I also know this is a step too far for some people - they can only do this when the time is right for them - not when you want it - ideally yes it would be at the time of making the mistake - but for some this is impossible - because they have wound themselves so tightly that if they admit to one flaw the whole lot will unravel - all those mistakes - that weren't really mistakes but opportunities to grow to learn to move forward - but we all have flaws - this makes us perfect imperfect - I hate this bloody word! We are all perfect with our imperfections !

I have never stopped the kids from seeing the x - because deep down I know a fathers love is important - but if it comes at a price it does damage - love is meant to be unconditional -always - but we have not been taught this - we all have mixed messages from our own childhoods but we have to work at it to get these right - and this takes a huge amount of effort - more effort than most people are willing to give - they would rather carry on blindly - deluded by their own delusions.

Maybe I too have had a fear of loosing the kids - I often refer to them as my kids as so many have pointed out - but the thing is you are supposed to work together in raising kids - woman supports kids, man supports woman, woman supports man and by doing so everyone wins - no losers! But we have this thing about being equal about being able to do it alone - we are not equal and it maybe as basic as a man does not carry a child does not breast feed - but he is needed to support the woman - in the absence of this we look for support elsewhere or we go it alone - sad sad world!

MH is on the increase amongst kids amongst elderly people ask yourself why - because in the pursuit of materialism you lose what really matters and this is things that money can't buy - but in today's world money can buy anything - some call this progress and in some ways it is - because without this we would not have our kids - and you know I have sent emails to x saying this has to stop we are destroying kids - but he keeps going - because he wants me to destroy them - I get it,

So to all those that have posted thank you - Offred in clashing heads with you you have probably helped me in a roundabout way. I'm done now this is it - I don't need to write here anymore because I've worked it out - I expect I will still get stuff to deal with unless he too decides the game is up - his choice - but I'm done

And you see now this is where I doubt myself because I'm asking have I been playing the game too as so many seem to think - do I need to win? Win what? Their is no prize I already have the prize - what have my motives been - to protect my bloody kids from harm that's what - he is capable of love just not unconditional - and to be honest how many of us are true ly capable of this - but this is where we need to be going - for peace!

Green

Is this thread your only outlet for what is going on? Do you have friends in real life you are talking to? Do you talk to family about what is going on for you?

It seems that this thread has become an echo chamber and is not doing you any good. You need real life people face to face who can talk with you.

There are many many many people who have experienced what you have experienced (why do you think there is so much literature on it and WA even exists?) but you seem to think that this is only you it has happened to and no-one else understands. They do, they are offering you advice, but for some reason you cannot hear it on here, which is why `this thread is doing you no good and a real life conversation and support has to be the way forward. I say this presuming you don't want to feel like this forever.

Green How can I gently say this. I think you are in crisis. You need help and support. Please phone the mental health team today and speak to them.

You are spiralling in your thinking. Have you had medication today? Reach out and take help.

You can’t protect your kids from all harm. What you can do is teach them the skills they need to be able to cope with their own lives as independent people. That includes the skills they need to be able to negotiate their own sufferings and their own difficulties.

This is why it is necessary for you to have the skills to cope with your own difficulties, because if you are not able to cope then they are less likely to learn from you how to cope.

There is little value in seeing xh as trying to destroy you or as playing a game. You are separated, he doesn’t need to be a part of your life anymore, even if you still have loose ends to tie up re the house.

You don’t need to be involved with a contact schedule, just be there in the background to help the kids with their feelings about their dad, try to keep your feelings out of things. If they need extra support that you can’t give them put your energies into finding that for them and preparing them to be able to accept it.

Sometimes older children are not ready to accept help that they need and as parents we can help them to get to the point where they can accept it. Often that depends on the parent’s ability to let the older child feel in control but supported rather than letting our own desperation creep in and put pressure on the child who is already struggling with their own feelings and will likely then want to rebel against our suggestions.

It worries me that you seem to see the children as part of you and that you reject xh’s suggestion that they are separate from you. Apart from anything else, they are 16, they should be separate from you. This doesn’t mean that he should be able to treat you without respect, you are their mother and they are half you, but it does mean that as 16 year olds they should be really quite independent by now. There should be boundaries in your relationship with them, not in the love you feel for them, but in the relationship.

Agree with Offred. Good advice.

im ok - im not spiralling out of control - i get what you are saying - yes some people do understand but some dont get it

offred you still dont get it though do you - if i want to have a holiday - if i want to do anything other than the one night & eow I have to get the x to agree

I could say to the kids we are going on holiday which will fall on the x's contact somehow - so do I just book it without asking him first and let the kids tell him - they don't want to be involved anymore

or if i want to go away without the kids and need them to stay with him I have to get him to agree - and last time i asked back in august i got no reply - nothing - and then they went to him because i was desperate and needed a break - so he only agrees when i have got beyond coping

i hear all you are saying - i start CBT in Jan which will help me - but other stuff happens in between time - i have not had a break from the relentless control since he left

Im sure i would get diagnosed with PTSD - there is noone in RL who still wants to listen - why would they it is shit - and they too try and tell me what to do - at the end of the day i have to go with my own decision

Offred we are not joined at the hip -the kids - they are doing their own thing - yes i agree about boundaries - but these needed to come into play just as the marriage fell apart whne the kids were 13 - ive had to learn all about boundaries myself because i accommodate everyone - and when i try and set boundaries all hell breaks loose because nobody is used to me doing this - i have tried talking but the kids do not want to know

i cant do this anymore - i have to change something because i cant carry on like this - i am in desperate need of a holiday/ a break/ a chance to get my head straight but if i go to the X asking him to have the kids he will have some reason why he cannot - maybe for a few days but not long enough.

if nothing has changed by the time i start my CBT i will be asking for more help - My ds needs to speak to someone - i can have a good couple of days maybe over the X weekend and if DS is back here and kicks off about his hair - i may have not said a word to him - just this puts me right down again

this is where im at

If you are one of the LP who don’t have a regular contact schedule then you accept you can’t have holidays without the kids (for two years until they are 18).

If the kids have arranged to be with xh then you can go away then.

This is exactly what I mean, these things are normal life. This is not him doing these things to you. This is just part of having teenagers who are old enough to arrange their own contact with their father. The plus side is that at 16 they don’t need constant supervision so you are able to have quite a lot of your own hobbies and interests if you choose.

If they go eow what is stopping you having a weekend away eow?

It’s not rational to call one night and eow him controlling you. This is way more contact than my two eldest have EVER had with their dad, he has managed to build up to one Saturday night every other week and they are 11 and 12. For several years he didn’t see them at all or he messed them around by messing around with a couple of hours here and there.

Realistically how many people with kids get to have holidays without kids? This is just having kids. Yes, perhaps he could do more but if you know he won’t you have to accept the next two years you are not going to have an extended holiday without them.

if i look back on here somewhere it will say when I tried to get DS to Camhs - it could be a year ago it could be longer - in between nothing has got any easier - if anything it has got worse - i got him there for 1 appointment - he barely spoke - he refused to go again - i went on my own - there is nothing they can do if he doesnt want to engage -

offred you tell me exactly how i get him to engage ive tried - i backed off over the summer let them do more or less what they wanted which was not in agreement with how x would parent - and then there was the drugs issue and school - i havent recovered from this yet - i still need to speak to the head - i told him not to get SS services involved because I did not think it was in DS best interests but i cant continue to do this on my own.

There is a recent issue which i am not going into on here - i need help with this to - only discovered in the last day or so -i havent yet worked out how to deal with this and this time i am following your advice and not getting the x involved - so we'll see how this one pans out.

If there is too much conflict involved in negotiating a holiday with them that eats into his contact then let him take them on holiday in your contact time (so they still get a holiday) or take them for a short break in your own time.

There is no sense at all in creating more conflict.

Children have to be ready to engage with CAMHS in order to make use of them.

There are things you can do to help, wellbeing support etc from the LA in order to get him CAMHS ready but it is useless to ask me since I don’t know him. This is a question for you - what can you do to help get him ready to engage with support?

It is different for each child.

offred you still dont get it though do you - if i want to have a holiday - if i want to do anything other than the one night & eow I have to get the x to agree

Offred does get this. I get this. Pretty much every single parent in the country gets this.

But you can chose to be controlled by this or chose to embrace and accept it.

You are currently choosing to be controlled by this.

there is no point is there - im asking for help because i dont know what to do - you seem to have all the answers but when i ask for something specific you cant help me - yes i know my child - but i dont know how to deal with this - hence why im in this mess

why dont you just say you dont know instead of backing out with i dont know your child - i can read all the theory books too - try this try that but nothing seems to be working -

why should i just accpet it - that i cant have holidays - their Df hasnt died - he hasnt done a complete runner -why should i wait two years - is this what you do - this looks like giving up to me or sucking it up - maybe your X's have done a runner maybe you have no opportunity - maybe you have no option just to accept it -

im not chosing to be controlled - i am still being controlled - the other option you say is embracing it - what a strange choice of words - accepting it - tolerating it - shutting up & putting up whatever you want to call it - the other option is to challenge it - not to just give up & accept when someone is kicking all your boundaries - there is so much contradiction on here no wonder i don't know what the hell to do.

yes it creates conflict because when i try and stand up for myself it is not respected - this is what it boils down to complete lack of respect for me over and over - maybe you give in - maybe you accept this - but how can i teach my kids as you say when they see me not standing up to a bully - even if that bully happens to be their DF.

as i said before im out - this is just more bullshit

You are not controlled. You are in the same situation that many many of us are in.
When we divorce, we HAVE to accept that time is shared with the children. That's life as a divorced parent. You don't have to speak to him and ask him to have the children! Just go away with them when they're with you - go away without them when they're with him. Simple?
You are choosing this path, you are controlling the situation.
Let him go. Move on. You are the one doing this to yourself (and your kids), not him.

I'm not chosing to be controlled - i am still being controlled - the other option you say is embracing it - what a strange choice of words - accepting it - tolerating it - shutting up & putting up whatever you want to call it - the other option is to challenge it - not to just give up & accept when someone is kicking all your boundaries - there is so much contradiction on here no wonder i don't know what the hell to do.

I understand why this seems contradictory but it actually isn't.

You cannot control how your ex behaves and how he choses to relate with your children. That is a fact. And I do think one that you are struggling with. You mention lots of things about how fathers 'should' behave, how men 'should' be. THat is all very well, that he should do all these things, but he doesn't. You can try and influence this as much as you like but ultimately it is not your choice how he chose to behave. He can literally do what he wants (obviously within the realms of the law). He doesn't have to have the kids when you aren't coping, he doesn't have to give you a holiday.

So that is what people are trying to say. You therefore have a choice - do you continue to be mad that he is not how you think he 'should' be or do you move on and embrace the life you actually do have?

keep on - I get that time is shared I haven't got a problem with this moon - so where I'm getting it wrong is I expect cooperation and flexibility - but he doesn't have to do this yet if he wants to have the kids for extra time during my contact time that's ok too is it and he doesn't need me to agree - is this what you are saying

So if I am saying that I am unable to put the kids interests first due to my MH and that this is impacting on them then he can refuse to have the kids with him -

So I have an email from him saying that we need to be flexible and cooperate on contact but what i see from this is that I only need to cooperate with him when he wants to see the kids more but he doesn't have to cooperate if can't cope.

If this is the case then this is absurd no wonder I didn't get it - where does co parenting come in - where does equal parental responsibility come in - it's even worse than I thought if this is what you are saying

You believe he is a narcissist.

If this is true then you must know that you cannot expect to coparent with him.

Also, your kids are sixteen not six. There really is no need for you to try to coparent. Just create your boundaries and cut your cloth accordingly.

I said you need to work out ways to support DS to engage with support because it is true. I have supported my DD to be CAMHS ready and she is now engaging with them. I know from experience that it can be done but what your son needs in order to be CAMHS ready is not likely to be the same as what my DD needed because he is a different person to her. Also I doubt we live in the same LA so the services that are available will be different.

If you speak to social care (early help probably) about it and his school they will know what is available but you still need to work out for yourself what his personal barriers to engagement are.

If you can’t cope with any of this normal parenting stuff you need to ask for help for yourself so that you are able to learn to do it.

You seem to want magical solutions that don’t involve you doing any work or taking any responsibility.

Until you are prepared to stop putting all your energy into being angry, bitter and helpless and instead put it into living you will continue to feel this way forever. Long after the kids have grown up and gone.

I have obviously missed this - I stupidly thought that he would want the extra time with his kids - I have been too caught up with stuff to organise a holiday - the holiday to SA was going to be it - but the requirement of his permission means he can refuse - I'm actually feeling like I've been even more stitched up - there was no court agreement due to the kids age and with him mucking about with CMS this frustrates me even more.

So again it basically boils down to him calling the shots -

My ex is very like this. Tells me when he's seeing them (similar ages to yours, bit younger)

I don't argue, rarely push back.

You would say I'm a pushover

I say I'm just getting on with the cards I've been dealt and my dcs are absolutely of the secure mindset that both parents love them and they don't need to choose.

To an adult, he may be a parent who is selfish but to his children he's their dad and they accept and love him

I have learned that I can't change him. It's absolutely his choice what relationship he has with his children. And if me picking up the pieces makes me a pushover, so be it, but they are my dcs and I simply want them to feel safe and loved

I've had many nights/ trips ruined by his unreliability. Yeah it's annoying. But i still choose to concentrate on what's best for my relationship with my dcs. And I know for a fact it's not dragging them into it, expecting them to take sides.

I understand why you feel like it's you giving way all the time. But you aren't.

I have a fulfilling exciting satisfying life and yes he (maybe tries to) sabotage that every now and again . He doesn't succeed though.

Yours is succeeding

Yes, DS and DD’s dad has a BPD diagnosis and he has been ridiculously unreliable. When we were in court (he brought the case) I would say to him ‘I am at home with the baby, you can pick any time to suit you’ and the court would order what he suggested then he would fail to turn up, repeatedly. Eventually the court ruled no order due to his case being (in their judgement) vexatious as I had never stopped him seeing the dc and it was clear that it was him who was causing the problems.

For about 3 years he has regularly and consistently had them for one Saturday night every two weeks. This is since he had DBT and has been married.

It literally doesn’t matter what I would like him to be. He isn’t capable of it. I have had to adjust my life accordingly. It would be totally pointless for me to keep on being angry about how he is because no matter what I do he is still going to be a person with BPD who isn’t capable of putting them first.

Offred - I apologise for swearing at you - I honestly didn't get this - I have been blindsided again it seems - up until march this year - the actual divorce took all my energy - sorting out finances and it was complicated due to the many parts - there were issues with kids all during this time - where he basically did what's he's doing now - and when I challenged him he started talking about court etc for contact but due to age I did not think this would be necessary

He made all sorts of noises about how I was stoping him access etc which is untrue - I knew it was a tactic to throw me off course with financials and it worked.

What I'm realising now is that my sols were even more inexperienced than I thought - because if what they were telling me was the truth they would have known this and would have encouraged me to make sure contact was water tight i.e. With set times during holidays etc - but they didn't _they just made some token remark on this everytime it cropped up.

Yes I say he is a narc - but I didn't realise until now how much he REALLY doesn't give a stuff about his kids - it's all for appearances.

Maybe this is why I have been so distressed because I needed to get to the bottom of this,

I obviously couldnt rationalise in my head how someone can be so destructive - all the 'official' communication re kids appears proper but I was picking up on something just not getting it fully.

I get it just do what I think is right for the kids regardless of him which I had been doing with Ds & camhs but then I must have had court appearances coming up.

I am angry yes - bitter no because this Ow has done me a favour - but I was obviously under the impression that a DF would step up when his Ds was in trouble - I got this wrong - so very wrong - all he did was use the drugs as an opportunity for himself again.

Offred I'm not looking for magical solutions I obviously took this bullshit they feed you at mediation that you are parents for life and have to work together in kids best interests as it is because this is how I see it even in divorce - but I get it now.

Men like this who go off and slot neatly into the life of an OW and her kids almost always have a mental heirarchy. Guess who goes to the bottom.