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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I cheated. DH discovered the affair just after it ended

238 replies

KC11 · 20/09/2017 18:15

More than 7 years ago I cheated on my H. 5 weeks in total. For me it was more about the emotional side and the hugs and smiles and texts during the day saying he was thinking about me. We did have sex several times. I ended the affair and hoped I wouldn't be found out. H, I now know, had been suspicious and managed to find out my pin code for my mobile. The OM texted me even though it was over to ask could he see me. I was in the shower oblivious to the text. H had my mobile and saw the text 5 minutes after it arrived. H opened the text and that was that. Affair discovered. Moving forwards...H and I have been arguing recently and one of the things that keeps coming up is that he wants details of the affair. Full details...where, when, how many times? Did we do 'x'? Did we do 'y'? Have I seen him in our local area? Was his child there when we saw each other/slept together? I really don't want to go into the details. Am I in the wrong?

OP posts:
threadarick · 22/09/2017 18:31

Infertility can completely tear relationships apart and make people do stupid, stupid things. Personally I've been suicidal, so I've read up a lot on the clinical depression that often ensues, and I do feel sympathetic, even if you don't like that or agree with me about it.

Italiangreyhound · 22/09/2017 21:49

Sorry, "...forgive her, don't forgive her, its his choice" sounds very heartless. I would not say that if someone had just found out, I meant when the affair was a long time ago as in this case.

threadarick I am so sorry to hear how you have felt, I hope you can over come it.

mathanxiety · 23/09/2017 02:22

But I just don't think a person should have to 'relieve' those to their spouse in any detail. Especially after such a long time. The decision to forgive should not be based on knowing every last detail because in reality no one can. Maybe the OP can't even remember every last detail.

It is nothing to do with the decision to forgive. It is all about giving the betrayed spouse what they need in order to process what has happened in their own life.

Telling him details is not done in order to make him feel better. Telling him details involves listening to herself as she tells what she did, where, and when, and seeing the face of the man she betrayed as she talks. It involves eating humble pie, but she won't do that, preferring to indulge in a narrative about her cold, emotionally illiterate husband who won't go to counseling among many other details indicating character flaws. She has not been clear at all about what happened if he is still asking 7 years later whether they dtd in his house.

If you are so sure Math that OP is keeping herself to herself in some way and it is sign of the fact she will cheat again then why has she not cheated so far again since this affair?
I am not the one thinking that - I am suggesting this is what is going around in the mind of the husband. He sees her reserving the right to keep hi in the dark. That is not the way to earn back trust that she has squandered. He is expected to take the word of a woman who has already deceived him in the most egregious way that she has never and will never cheat again. But she won't say out loud in front of him what she did. It indicates that she hasn't faced up to it and that she is leaving her H to tread the path towards a decision about the relationship on his own. He can like her or lump her but she will not compromise in order to help him process what was done to him. It is all about her and her squeamishness and let's face it, her pride. None of that is positive on her part. She owes him help in processing what she did to him.

The cheating spouse takes away everything the faithful spouse thinks they know about their own life. They do owe something to help heal from that. Refusing to give what is asked is like purposefully keeping the wound open.

Forgiveness is a separate process. It is related only insofar as the betrayed spouse needs to know exactly what they are forgiving.

"One size does not fit all" - no, so a cheater can only go on what her spouse asks. In this case we know what he wants. Yet she repeats, "What's wrong?" to him, as if she is waiting for him to say he has a case of athlete's foot and she can breathe a sigh of relief that he has developed amnesia.

I don't see my role here as supporting the OP. I see it as telling some home truths to her. She needs no encouragement to do what is right for her. She does that already, and has apparently always done that.

YYY to 'trickle truth' mentioned by certificateofauthenticity. It is soul destroying to have to deal with this form of torture.

CoyoteCafe · 23/09/2017 03:14

"The cheating spouse takes away everything the faithful spouse thinks they know about their own life."

Yes, sometimes that's taking away the certain knowledge that they can ignore the other person and their feelings, take them for granted, and yet the other person will just always be there for them. For some people, it is a massive wake up call that their partner is an actual human being with feelings.

I don't have any sympathy for a man wouldn't let his wife cry when she was going through IVF. None. Who couldn't be bothered to go to appointments to support her. Who couldn't be bothered to have a real discussion about adoption. None. There is nothing that I can relate to in that. So much so, that I seriously question what sort of woman reading this thread projects her own marriages woes on it. What sort of spouse would one have to have been to relate to such a man? My god, what the hell did you do to your spouse before his affair that you are unable to see that in some cases, part of why the affair happens is because the other spouse was a shit. Not all cases, not even in most cases. But sometimes, people cheat because they are trying to make a marriage work with someone who treats them badly. The inner conflict of wanting their marriage work and yet being desperate for a little kindness is a dangerous thing.

SummerflowerXx · 23/09/2017 07:12

The thing is part of being in a partnership is realising it is not all about you - that the other person is a separate human being, who has their own emotional landscape. Ideally, the process of dialogue, communication and mutual consideration would mean that both parties grow and share. But that is a process of trust and communication. Access to someone else's emotional landscape for your own well-being is not a right. It should be freely given.

OP describes her husband as emotionally cold, unfeeling and I think at times cruel, although she does not use those words. So she had no access to his emotional landscape. The mistake OP made was looking elsewhere for emotional comfort before sorting out or ending her marriage.

However, continuing the theme, this does not give her husband the right to push into her emotional landscape relentlessly about it seven years later. Particularly not regarding intimate details where if the questions were asked by anyone else they would seem intrusive and crossing personal boundaries. Regardless of what happened, the OP retains the right to her integrity and not to have disclose intimate sexual matters. She is not in a court and her husband is not judge and jury. It doesn't matter if they did it in the missionary position or standing up, whether it was a Sunday or Monday, whether she wore sky blue pink underwear. It does not change the crux of the matter, it was not with her husband. What happened does not change the nature of forgiveness, which is about compassion for others and it takes place in one's own mind. It has nothing to do with the other person.

I do not believe quite frankly that the OP has told her husband less than she has told strangers on the internet - and I cannot for the life of me see why one needs to know more. It would not undo the betrayal, it would not assist with processing (maybe a trained professional would, though, which I believe the OP has suggested), it would not save the marriage.

I truly hope that the OP sticks with 'enough is enough'. It sounds like it was enough seven years ago. She has gone from the thread, so maybe we should stop digging over this. You cannot judge things by your own feelings of betrayal mathanxiety Flowers

Italiangreyhound · 23/09/2017 07:19

"I don't see my role here as supporting the OP. I see it as telling some home truths to her. She needs no encouragement to do what is right for her. She does that already, and has apparently always done that."

I don't think she has done what she waned to do,necessarily. I think she may have stayed with him because of guilt. But I could be wrong.

"She owes him help in processing what she did to him." I don't think she does, necessarily, if she really loved him maybe she would feel she wanted to do that but I'd still personally feel very uncomfortable about talking about sexual things. Facts are facts but how someone feels about it may be different.

I feel going through all the gory details is just rubbing salt in the wounds. That's my feeling. And I cannot really see how it would help him after all this time. This is not about someone who only just found out.

"The cheating spouse takes away everything the faithful spouse thinks they know about their own life." Well it really depends if the spouse who cheats does really love their partner and if they do but still cheat, does that take away all the love, does it mean the marriage is a lie? Like I say I am not sure one size fits all. The person who has cheated may well still really love their partner. But he person who has been cheated on may not feel that. It's totally understandable.

A very big part of the process is probably whether the couple want to stay together and want to find a way to make it work. I think that should be a joint thing. But what you keep talking about Math is the person who cheated having to go through this process, it's like a penance. I am not sure how that really restores love. I am not talking about sweeping it under the carpet, not at all.

Wise words CoyoteCafe. We cannot judge, nor are we asked to, the affairs other posters have lived through. The OP has given us her side of events, as always on Mumsnet.

I do not condone affairs but I do feel very sorry for the OP, I think she has had a tough time of it. I don't think her husband sounds nice at all. It is not an excuse for having an affair but it is a reason why she might have looked for comfort from outside the marriage which will absolutely not be the same as for other posters here.

Italiangreyhound · 23/09/2017 07:23

Great post SummerflowerXx. We cross-posted.

"I truly hope that the OP sticks with 'enough is enough'. It sounds like it was enough seven years ago. She has gone from the thread, so maybe we should stop digging over this. "

I agree, I won't comment again unless the OP comes back. XX Thanks

MaisyPops · 23/09/2017 07:30

I do not condone affairs but I do feel very sorry for theOP, I think she has had a tough time of it. I don't think her husband sounds nice at all. It is not an excuse for having an affair but it is a reason why she might have looked for comfort from outside the marriagewhich will absolutely not be the same as for other posters here.
Well said.

I'm not surprised she ended up finding emotional support outside the marriage given the way her DH was being. It doesn't excuse an affair but it is a totally different situation to 'serial cheater wants a shag'.

The OP is clearly having a tough time. Helping her through doesn't mean agreeing with her actions. Not really sure what people gain by sticking the boot in.

mathanxiety · 23/09/2017 08:14

sometimes that's taking away the certain knowledge that they can ignore the other person and their feelings, take them for granted, and yet the other person will just always be there for them. For some people, it is a massive wake up call that their partner is an actual human being with feelings.

I don't have any sympathy for a man wouldn't let his wife cry when she was going through IVF. None. Who couldn't be bothered to go to appointments to support her. Who couldn't be bothered to have a real discussion about adoption. None.

Two things about all that:
(1) That may or may not be the truth. A person who cheats will often construct a context to the cheating in order to excuse it. There will often be a massive devaluation of the spouse during the period that precedes the affair, while the flirting and the crossing of lines goes on in the cheater's head.
(2) If she was indeed so miserable about all of that heartlessness, then the thing to do about it was to confront the H with the possibility of divorce unless he changed his tune.

I seriously question what sort of woman reading this thread projects her own marriages woes on it. What sort of spouse would one have to have been to relate to such a man? My god, what the hell did you do to your spouse before his affair that you are unable to see that in some cases, part of why the affair happens is because the other spouse was a shit.

In the first place, as stated, we only have the word of a person who we have seen putting considerable effort into minimising the affair here on this thread to go on as to what the H is like. The OP has a very definite pov here. Several coats of gloss have been painted over the affair she had, and over the relationship with her H.

In the second place, my exH cheated with a man. He told me it was a woman, but I found out the truth. Meanwhile, he told counselors and anyone who would listen what a cold, frigid bitch I was, what a lazy slob and terrible mother, how I was selfish and unfeeling, and there was more. His mother confronted me about how lonely he was and asked me why I wouldn't talk to him, and I set her straight (pardon the pun). So pardon me if I cast a jaundiced eye on the words of a cheater.

Affairs happen because the cheater is a shit, and a coward. Reasons for the affair come into being because the cheater is a shit and a coward, but who feels entitled to be well thought of and has no compunction about spreading the blame and making it all look a good deal more fuzzy than it was, and if that means turning a man who may or may not be a human iceberg into someone who resembles a human iceberg, so be it. The cheater has a vested interest in the narrative of the mean spouse and miserable marriage.

After the affair, if the cheater wants to work on the relationship there should not be conditions, or a time limit, and there has to be recognition of the damage to both the relationship and the trust of the betrayed spouse and bona fide efforts to do whatever it takes to help the betrayed spouse to heal, with full acknowledgement that that might not result in forgiveness or moving on.

The contribution to healing might involve a separation, a move to another job or to somewhere else in the country, always having your phone available for the other person, always answering texts or calls from your spouse, and answering questions about what happened, where, when, etc.

There should be no lying about where you are and expecting it not to be a setback to the process of regaining trust. No withholding information the betrayed spouse requests because suddenly the cheater becomes all precious about sex. The husband here doesn't even know if the OM had sex in his bed.

I don't think she stayed with him because of guilt, ItalianGreyhound. I think she stayed because she still felt too cowardly to end it herself. She describes asking her H what he wants, which is putting the mess in his lap and asking him to make the decision.

There is no time limit to the hurt, ItalianGreyhound. Seven weeks or seven years - it makes no difference. Things can happen, things can be said that take you back to square one.

"The cheating spouse takes away everything the faithful spouse thinks they know about their own life." Well it really depends if the spouse who cheats does really love their partner and if they do but still cheat, does that take away all the love, does it mean the marriage is a lie?
I don't think you understand at all what the betrayed spouse might feel.

Cheating changes everything. It changes who you are. It changes who the cheater is, and it changes the relationship forever. No matter what happens from discovery on, the relationship will never be the same. The affair will always be hanging over it. It will lurk in the background. It will poison the air. The betrayed spouse may find him or herself overwhelmed by emotion about it months or even years later.

It's not that cheating just takes away the love, or that it makes the marriage a lie. The betrayed spouse finds himself living with someone he does not know at all, a stranger who has done something unthinkable, and unthinkably cruel. The spouse looks back at the time the affair was going on and they see themselves as a fool. They feel humiliated. They tear their hair out wondering how much else went on that they did not know about, asking themselves if the cheater has only told them as much as they suspect they know.

They have left the faithful spouse with an unbearable burden - to try to forgive, try to forget, try not to dwell on what has been done, or perhaps decide while still reeling or maybe many months or years later to separate, divorce, start all over again in a new home, grieve the loss of the relationship, the loss of the future they had planned and their own identity as part of a couple.

You are judging a cheater by their intentions when you bring up the question of whether the cheater still feels love for the betrayed spouse, which is exactly what a narcissist wants you to do. If they really loved their partner they would not cheat. You either love or you cheat.

FritzDonovan · 23/09/2017 11:30

math I agree 100% with everything you have said, much more eloquent than any comment I could make!

Italiangreyhound · 23/09/2017 11:31

I'm not going to comment on Thr OP but Math your situation sounds terrible and you have my every sympathy (I mean that most sincerely).

I think you are right in that I do not know the depth of feeling, but I also think your own situation is colouring your view just as mine colours my view. And neither of our experiences are exactly that of the OP or of her husband.

Anyway, I am very sorry for your situation and I don't think it is helpful to anyone for us to debate it but I did not want to leave your post unanswered.

mathanxiety · 23/09/2017 22:15

Thank you, Italian

It is all many years behind me at this point (I discovered the truth in 2004), but I naturally did a huge amount of reading and counseling while going through it. I now have the benefit of all of that plus many years of distance from the immediate situation.

Naturally the topic remains one of great interest to me. What has become very clear to me over the years is that cheaters tend to all say more or less the same things, and their behaviour follows a pattern. By the same token, there are well recognised elements to the betrayed spouse's response.

Italiangreyhound · 23/09/2017 22:33
Thanks
SandyY2K · 23/09/2017 22:57

What is the point of giving him details, Sandy?

It's not for me, you or the OP to question this.

It's his need. I don't think you have any idea the trauma infidelity can cause.

The not knowing what your wife did with another man during an affair can be crippling.

You imagine he's better than you...that your wife had multiple orgasms with him ....that you don't measure up to him.
That she's just with you out of guilt...

He needs that information .possibly to decide if he can really get through this.

Sometimes the not knowing is worth than the truth ...but he needs that truth to know the depth of the affair.

The need for truth and the point of the truth...is to help the betrayed spouse make an informed decision.

It's very easy to say get over it and move on ... but I've seen grown strapping men in tears on the ground, questioning their manhood and feeling emasculated following infidelity .... You've no idea.

Italiangreyhound · 23/09/2017 23:03

"I don't think you have any idea the trauma infidelity can cause." "You've no idea."

You are right.

But I do know about the pain of infertility and for that the OP has my sympathy, and I am not commenting again until the OP comes back.

SandyY2K · 23/09/2017 23:05

@mathanxiety

cheaters tend to all say more or less the same things, and their behaviour follows a pattern.

^^^ Well said. It's rewriting and exaggerating marital history to justify infidelity.

CoyoteCafe · 24/09/2017 00:25

Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. Tolstoy

Mathanxiety, I'm very sorry for what you've been through. The degree of lying involved in massive -- he was never even honest about his sexual preference. I honestly cannot imagine the shock of that.

I think that Tolstoy is right, and that every unhappy family is unhappy in their own way. In your posts, you've done a lot of projecting, and aiming your anger and hurt at another person, one who has never done anything to hurt you, and one who has gone through her own tremendous pain. I gently suggest that you find a way to make peace with the horrible things you went through, not as a way to forgive your ex, but so that you have peace of mind.

mathanxiety · 24/09/2017 00:59

I have dealt with my own anger and hurt, picked up the pieces of my life, developed a lovely circle of friends, let go of some who turned out to be unhelpful, and brought up my children. I made a conscious decision that what happened was not going to define me, and it has not.

The truth empowered me. I was able to shake off the fog of pain and indecision I endured when exH first made a statement to me about extra marital sex with a woman, in 2002. I spent two years in that fog, almost paralysed emotionally, wondering if I could really destroy the children's lives over this, wondering how I had failed exH, and in general tearing myself apart. Moving on was not helped by small discrepancies in exH's account of what had happened - details like location, what exactly was done. The fog lifted when I stumbled upon the truth, and when that happened I got my life back.

Just because I have called bullshit on the OP does not mean I have projected here. Truth is really, really important for the betrayed spouse if he or she says it is important. It so happens that coincidentally it was important to me and to the husband in this case. We know it is important to him because even his wife has said it is, though she recounts his request for details in order to convince MN that he is taking unfair advantage of someone who is also a victim of this situation (herself), and suggests that she was vulnerable to the affair because of his behaviour.

There may be people out there who are more interested in other aspects of a cheater's demeanour after discovery and do not want to know the details. Maybe their spouses are genuinely contrite and can show that unequivocally. Maybe no little alarm bells ring for them, maybe they have no little niggling instinct whispering that there is more then they are being told. The husband in this case is not one of them. His request should be granted.

mathanxiety · 24/09/2017 01:01

more 'than'

Opheliasgoldenwine · 24/09/2017 11:36

You have to answer him. I'd need to know to process and start to get over it. If DP did it and refused details, it'd be over. If he told me the truth, there's a possibility that we could work things out. You have to answer him, it's only fair.

TheLegendOfBeans · 24/09/2017 11:45

I can't add to the amazingly eloquent posts of @mathanxiety but it sounds to me as if you've probably killed your marriage by having an affair and what's happening right now is the death throes.

I had an EA with a colleague many years ago and my then DP found out. Two years later, way after it's been "laid to rest" he brought it up again and again and again and it was down to me to twig that DP understandably couldn't ever forget and that at heart the relationship was dead because of the breach of trust.

SandyY2K · 24/09/2017 13:09

The importance of truth and details to the betrayed spouse, as written by a BH to his WW.

To xxx,

I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly.

No one wants to be forced to 'look' at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn’t mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn’t he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I’m going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge.

You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you’re carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the 'STUFF' to figure out OUR reality. There isn’t really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don’t have.

Now let’s enter my reality. Let’s both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down.

To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever 'feel' complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are.

When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what’s the difference, it’s not important.

Then later when I’m expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it.

You wonder why I can’t just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned?

Don’t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart.

I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together.

It doesn’t come from jealousy, it doesn’t come from spitefulness, and it doesn’t come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn’t it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn’t it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can’t and the reason I can’t is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.

SandyY2K · 24/09/2017 13:10

^^

Not necessarily for the OP....but anyone else who is affected by infidelity in the same way.

SummerflowerXx · 24/09/2017 13:35

About the letter posted by Sandy2K

No two people can ever have the same view when they have not been through the same experience. Even if they have been through the same experience, they may remember and process it differently. You cannot ever completely have access to someone's mind and emotional interior.

My second husband was extremely controlling and wanted everything done his way, right down to knowing personal things about me. Which he has then manipulated and used against me. Because he loved me too, it was caring and wanting to be with me. He loved me, that is why he wanted to know where I had been, who I was with, who was texting me, all of those things to fill in the 400 pieces of my life (there was no affair). I would not say 'don't worry, that is not important', but that is part of me I am not willing to share.

Love is not demanding. Love should be based on compassion and a desire to help each other grow. That letter is all I need to know for ME. There is nothing about it being important to have transparency for 'us', for the couple to grow and develop, for both parties to heal the rupture.

I need to do x because I love you is never a healthy argument if x is not built on consensual communication. It is emotional blackmail. I needed to read your email because I love you, i needed to know what you wrote. I need to know when you had sex with OW because I love you. I need to know when you laundered the clothes, where you had dinner, track your movements, all of those things, because I love you.

The only need to know comes from a need to have some sense of control back, disguised as love. It is not love.

SummerflowerXx · 24/09/2017 13:39

It is quite possible to leave the 400 pieces empty and make a decision based on 600, I think. The 600 are what you know, yourself, to be true. And there is also a whole world beyond the 1000 piece jigsaw, too.

But hey, knock yourself out getting every one of those last pieces to see the whole picture - while forgetting to look up and see the world beyond the jigsaw. No-one has to complete a puzzle. That is a choice. But it is not a choice to hold over someone else in the name of love.