"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi all, I'm sorry, I haven't been on here for a few weeks (and not read all the posts I've missed)because I've been really struggling. It was my father's 70th birthday on Sunday and I did not send a card or text or anything.

Also on new medication which doesn't seem to do much for me.

Just feel so crap at the minute, I go from having proper meltdowns and crying my eyes out to full blown anger. Feel like I am going nuts.

Sorry. to everyone

Hello. I've been here before, occasionally over the years. New name now. Not sure where to begin. I have toxic parents. They don't live near, and we haven't had much contact in recent years. Any time I see them, they shatter my equilibrium. This week I told them it's the end - no more contact. I feel light and free, but also sad and inadequate - it's a confusing combination! I firmly believe it's not me, it's them - but impossible to entirely shake the feeling that I could and should have been better. How to sort out these feelings? (Happy to share any info, just don't know where to start!)

Hi Whirly. It's shit isn't it? I have done the dance of trying to make amends, bending over backwards to please, putting my own mental health in jeopardy for years now...it is utterly soul destroying.

Sorry, don't have any words of wisdom as going through the same.

And after everything my parents have put me through over the years it's ME who feels guilty that we have no contact now! It doesn't matter how many times people tell me it's not my fault, I am still sat here thinking what am I going to do if I get a call one of these days because something has happened to either my mother or my father!

sunflower

Do not go down that particular rabbit hole!!.

You may find this excerpt helpful:-

emergingfrombroken.com/what-if-my-mother-or-father-dies-before-we-resolve-our-relationship/

Thank you Attila, I have actually read that particular excerpt before...somehow I just can't seem to stop thinking along those lines though.

I am feeling very low and vulnerable today. Sometimes I wonder why I bother with anything. I am just so f*cking sick of everything. Sorry.

Attila I have just read it again.

Guess I need to keep repeating this paragraph to myself:

sunflower

Don't be sorry; its a very British trait indeed to say sorry!.

What's brought this on today?. Has some utterly useless relative or friend aka flying monkey been pressing buttons?.

You are a valued person in your own right.

But I know the answer to that question; they would tell the person asking that question that they were the perfect parents, they did everything for me and I am the black sheep of the family, ungrateful and they don't know why I act like that.

It is pointless.

Precisely!

I have to say I did not feel an awful lot when my dysfunctional FIL died either. I went to his funeral but only did so because of DH and to a lesser extent societal convention.

I am afraid of what will happen if/when they die and what people will think...I have asked my husband if he thinks I should go back for the funeral and he said that I am under no obligation, that my parents did not even have the decency to call or write after they found out about my miscarriage (not to mention all the other shit they did beforehand!).

But I worry stupidly about what extended family would think! That I am an awful daughter. Society expects children to honour their parents.

God I am sat here crying and at the same time I am so f*ckign angry!!!"

Sunflower

Oh yes I remember your initial posting now; you now live up in Scotland if I remember rightly.

Your dad's birthday has likely been the trigger for these low feelings you have had. It will pass, please believe me when I write that.

By the way your written English is a lot better than my German!!!. My German vocab consists solely of days of the week and the numbers from 1-10!. (I have previously been to Hamburg and Berlin and may visit Munich soon for a few days).

I should say that the reason there are no flying monkeys in my case is the fact that my mother has fallen out with most of her own family!

Does not speak to her father (her mother passed away three years ago after about 16 years of no contact) or one of her sisters. Only has contact with her other sister, whom she used to spend most of her time slagging down. And of course insisted of smoking in her house, after she had just finished chemotherapy for bowel cancer, let's not forget that one.

But no, my father and sister worship at her altar. I am the ungrateful one. The one with mental problems. The problem child. The black sheep.

My God how I have tried over the years!

Sunflower

I concur with your DHs opinion; you do not have to return to Germany for their funerals. You really do owe these people nothing. Your parents treated you abysmally and abused you as a child; they failed you utterly here as their daughter. They made you the scapegoat for their inherent ills.

Sod what societal convention may dictate here. Those that mind do not matter, those that matter do not mind.

Yes, you are right, I'm in Scotland! Near Edinburgh.

I love Munich!!! Been there three times, you will love it. x

Why did they treat my sister so differently? Why? I don't understand it

Sunflower

Passing over the tissues.

Its not your fault your mother and father are the ways they are; you did not make them that way. Their own parents and family did that to them.

Your mother's own history is clearly indicative of someone who has both an untreated, and untreatable, personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality disorder is a Cluster B personality disorder.

The golden child and scapegoat dynamic is commonly seen in dysfunctional families where narcissism presides. Your sister remains favoured whilst you are the black sheep. Fortunately for you now you have a lot of physical distance between you and they; you really need to have more mental distance between you and they as well. You are actually in a far better position believe it or not than your sister is as her role in that family is not without price. You can see how dysfunctional your family of origin is; she cannot and does not want to. She remains unhealthy enmeshed with these two horrors.

Are you still seeing the counsellor?. Was wondering how you are getting on re this person.

Sunflower

You may want to read this as well:-

www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/golden-child-and-scapegoat/

facesofnarcissism.com/2015/05/11/how-a-narcissistic-parent-treats-the-golden-child-vs-the-scapegoat/

Thanks for the recommendation re Munich. We're thinking of staying near the English Garden.

Thank you for the tissues. Sat here crying my eyes out and can't seem to stop.

If you asked anyone on the outside, as in people who do not know my parents intimately, they would say they are wonderful people. Intelligent, well educated and kind (yes, kind!!!). The kind of people you'd want to be friends with. My father used to be very successful in his job and has a great sense of humour...often at the expense of others, but hey everyone likes a good laugh right? My mother is always friendly, paying compliments to people left and right...who cares if she slags down those very people afterwards? They know nothing about it.

I am so sick of them. And yet whenever I say that I feel guilty. Guilty guilty guilty. It's like a mantra in my head. Youareaterribledaughteryouareaterribledaughter. Repeat ad nauseum.

I am still seeing the CPN, but waiting for my appointment with the Psychologist which will be official my start of therapy.

A fine example of my father's sense of humour coming up...

My sister and her husband live in a house he 'inherited' from his parents (they are still alive but own several properties). Next door to them lives his elderly aunt, his mother's sister. She had an accident as a child and is special needs as a result (although she can manage to live more or less independently).

As a result of this, her personal hygiene is not always up to scratch and sometimes she can go for quite a while without washing her hair for example. She is the most loveliest person though; whenever we used to visit my sister and she saw our car outside she would come over to say hello.

My father and mother are disgusted by her lack of hygiene. So much so that they, or should I say my father, make it glaringly obvious. I remember visiting my sister and brother-in-law for a BBQ in the summer a few years back (we were still living in Germany at the time) and Anita (his aunt) came over to say hello. My father said in a sing-song voice 'Your hair is lovely, your hair is lovely' until my mother shushed him.

But yet both sister and brother-in-law worship him!

I'm sorry for writing so much, it's as if someone has pressed a button and I can't stop.

Don't apologise

We all need a place to say this stuff and on here is so useful. Hope you're ok

@sunflower1022 I felt the same as you last year my councillor suggested I read Will I ever be good enough by Karyl McBride it really helped me over the initial hurt.

Now I can view things with more of a detachment although it still hurts I no longer spiral in to depression around family events I'm more angry that I have to deal with this bullshit

Whirlytastic 'shatter my equilibrium' yep that's it in a nutshell.

Sunflower I sympathise.** 💐 & we all hog this thread when we need to!