"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I'm glad hashi - I think a lot of the time we expect the kids to be bothered and they're actually fine.

Molly I don't know of that organisation but would be really interested to know how that goes for you. I have done private therapy and I would say, trust your instincts - if you warm to the person and they seem to get it, go for it, if it seems like a struggle to explain things or you come away feeling confused or upset, find another therapist. Lots of people just don't get what narcissistic abuse is, and also because the trauma was repeated and from an early age, you need someone who you have a rapport with and who you trust not to go too fast and risk retraumatising you.
I would agree that CBT probably won't cut it - if you have a specific difficulty you want help with it's supposed to be quite good, and there are a couple of people on here who've done it and had good results IIRC - but if you're trying to get your head round all this for the first time I don't know that it's the ideal tool.

I need to vent

Since I was little I've always questioned weather my mom actually loved or wanted me. I never remember being kissed or called or her telling me she loved me.

There is so much I could write about how she always put me down was never on my side etc but mainly it being Christmas I think it's bit home that's it's time for families and last night just proved it's always her first.

Growing up I never knew where I stood with her, e.g. one day i could take my sandwich upstairs to my room. The next day if I did it ide be called ungrateful for making a mess in my room deliberately otherwise why would I of taken my sandwich upstairs?

She would just enter my room whenever she liked and would go through my things even breaking a lock I had on a jewellery case where I kept my diary! The bitch read it and grounded me for everything in there I wasn't allowed to keep a diary I don't need to.
My bedroom had to be her perfect. Even when I left home my bedroom was pink and frilly and I had to keep god awful china dolls in there at 18!
I stopped inviting people round once I got to high school even then I was being selfish not bringing my friends round as she had spent so much money making it perfect for me. I hated it with a passion. I just wanted to put posters of Peter Andre on my wall to be the same as my friends. I was told I wasn't trying to fit in with the rest of the family why couldn't I be more like my db and just do as I was told?

Ide get in from school she would check my bag and go through my books.
I was severely bullied through high school and as it happened my mom worked with one of the girls (let's call her Mary) mother. Being bullied ide skip school or ide get into trouble because the class of 30 would bully me and obviously my story would be different from there's.
The school would phone my mom at work then ide get the whole "do you no I've had Mary's mom telling me what you've been doing at school and she's gloating when she's telling me the school are on the phone again. Why can't you fit in and be more like Mary? The school never phone about her? Why are you embarrassing me at work?"
The best was Mary's mom asked her about the bullying and she's shocked and hurt that you would think that when she's you friend?"
Of course that made the bullying worse.

Sorry I digressed

My dh is allergic to dogs he can be around them for a couple of hours then the symptoms start. We only popped to my moms for a couple of hours Xmas day because she has a dog and obviously he can't be there too long. It's not just that's he allergic but she lets the dog jump over everyone, lick faces and basically he hyperactive for ages and I don't want a dog jumping all over me.

Anyway another family member always does a boxing day buffet so we go along last night walk in and my mom has brought her dog. So I said "why have to brought him?" When she knew full well dh couldn't be around there for too long.

My mom strops (yes a 62 year old woman stroped! ) off to the other room and procedes to slag me off to her sister
"Im so ungrateful,
why am I putting my dh needs before her right to bring her dog,
Why do I never just fit in with everyone and make life difficult"

Those were just a few things she said.
There is so much more now I've left home

My house is dirty.
I'm a scutter if I stay in my pjs all day.
I'm only having tattoos to get a reaction out of her.

Thing is when she says she's given me everything she means materialistic. Yes we did have better carpet than everyone else and even our scruffy clothes we probably more expensive than most people's best clothes but I don't see what else she has given me?

We had a MASSIVE argument about a year ago when ide got another tattoo as a tribute to my nan and granddad (her parents) apparently I only had it to make her look bad. she never explained how.

I told her to go fuck herself and this is me and she's got 2 options

1. Shut the fuck up and get on with it. Or
2. Delete me.

Then i walked out.

My dad rang me asking his usual "why don't you just let her get on with it coz it wouldn't cause problems?" This has ALWAYS been his response so I told him.
"I wasn't dealing with her bullshit anymore and if he wanted to protect a narcissist then that's fine he could delete me too"
Then i hung up.

For 6 weeks it was pure bliss of not having my mom hanging over me. But sadly a family member died suddenly and because I'm a people pleaser (which I'm 99% sure is due to having to placate my mother during childhood) I made the first move and went to see them.
We never spoke about it but my mothers attitude did change. She had blips but I could see she was making an effort so I let it go.
But after last night I've had enough again.

Nobody else in my family sees it only me so I'm guessing what I'm asking is is it me?

Am I being dramatic?
Have I made this out into a big deal when it's actually not?
I no how I felt growing up. Alone, unloved, couldn't do anything right, never going to be good enough. But according to my mother it's bullshit coz she gave me everything!

Please can anyone shed some light?

Sorry l guess I really needed to vent.

Bluelonerose it is not you, so many things you have said about your childhood are the same as mine. I’m also expected to just put up and shut up with my Mum to keep the peace. NO MORE! I’m going no contact and staying no contact this time. I also keep questioning myself, but stay strong and keep reading this thread to remind yourself it is not you that is wrong, difficult, over dramatic (you know how it goes!)

Thanks for the excellent advice toomuchtooold I will keep you updated on how it goes. They seem to be trying to create more public attention for narcisstic abuse with campaigns etc which can only be a good thing I think.

www.echosocietycampaigns.co.uk/photographicproject

blue just to echo what molly said, so much of what you've written resonates with my experiences too. My sister was always the good girl who doesn't cause any trouble apparently whereas I've always been the bad one. My DPs also gave me everything apparently, and materially I barely wanted for anything I suppose. But love, affection, acknowledgment etc weren't and still aren't forthcoming.

My DPs are just continuing the cycle from their childhoods in some ways, they both came from very abusive homes but what they've underestimated with me is that little weak mess they kept down and in her place grew into a tigress when she became a mum, and this tigress roars if anyone tries hurting her cubs.

Hi there Molly. The Echo Society are fantastic!
Also look up "Stand Alone" - another excellent organisation. SA was started by a writer - Becca Bland. Google her! She's amazing.
Both organisations operate slightly differently. Both offer heavily subsidised therapy and support (peer/group etc)

So true hashiaslarry now I have my son I won’t let anyone hurt him. He has given me the strength to finally take action for good.

Thank you wishiknewthen I will check out standalone and thanks for the feedback on The Echo Society. Definitely going to need help working through this, it’s hard breaking away from my whole family.

@HashiAsLarry, I have 5 yo twins, a 7yo and also a 9yo. I've found they're quite accepting of whatever you tell them for the most part.

Initially it was "when will we see Nanny and Grandad?" And a reply of "I don't know, we're all a bit busy at the moment" stemmed too many questions.

Then we had a lot more questions about seeing them again, and ds2 said all they did was shout at dc anyway and he didn't like it when they did that. We did tell them then that nanny and grandad had shouted some very unkind things to mummy and daddy, and we didn't think that any of us needed to be spoken to like that so until they said sorry, we wouldn't be seeing them. We have been very careful to ensure the children don't blame themselves so it's always been 'Mummy and daddy have had an argument with nanny and grandad'. They haven't seen their grandparents since May and it's only really School holidays where they ask about them. I think that's in part because they would be invited for sleepovers in the holidays, even if the sleepover didn't happen...

Oh my.. you could be writing my story OP. Bullying, (school and mother) never living up to expectations, not knowing what was right from one day to the next, father who agrees she's wrong, but 'just agree with her, it's easier'

So sad for you. However. I finally threw my toys out of the pram about 9 years ago. I decided to cut the negative person out of my life. Since then I can honestly and heartfelt say that I have not regretted my decision. No negativity, no nastiness, and I have never been more happy with my life.

Morning all!

I've started a new thread - there's still a bit of space on this one but in case it gets busy today I thought I'd stick in a link to the new one.

Cheers!

Thank you to those that replied.

I guess I was scared to come back on and have people tell me I was being stupid etc.

You have no idea the relief that knowing it's not me!
I no I have a long way to go with regards to my mother but thank you so much xx

I've shared my story before under username Mittens1969, so I won't share it again, as it upset other posters at the time, being very triggering. Basically, my M has gone off for her annual 3 month stay in Africa for her charity project, which I understand that she gets a lot out of. And in a way it's easier for my DSis and me when she isn't around, as she's very controlling and bossy, though she really doesn't understand that, I think.

She's arranged for someone to take care of my B's financial affairs. He's getting PIP now at least so in theory he should have enough to live on. She has told me how lonely and unwell he is, though, so I'm feeling awful that I'm not emotionally able to do anything for him. I can't invite him here, as he's such hard work, the girls are nervous of him and he's completely helpless, breaks things, smells and gets so agitated. And he's so triggering for me at a time when emotionally I'm in a bad place.

I'm also coping with my own traumatic childhood memories. And the stuff I can't remember as well, which I know needs to come out but I'm afraid to go back there as I don't want to fall apart, not when I have a family to consider.

I'm rambling, I know, I apologise! Thank you for reading.

First time posting on here.
I am quite old and a survivor of constant, serious childhood physical and verbal abuse. Never, ever shown any affection.
My self esteem is very low but it happened many years ago. As an adult I had a superficial relationship with my parents, too scared to confront them, but thought I had put it all behind me.
My much younger brother died 10 years ago, directly attributable to my parents.
My sister died recently. We were estranged due to disfunctional family dynamics. However I was the only one abused.
Also estranged from my mother due to sister but now am next of kin so have to take responsibility for her. She is 95, has dementia, in sheltered accommodation not near me.
This has brought all my old childhood feelings back. Can't stop crying, feel useless, am afraid to even phone my mother.
Reading toxic parents to try to get some insight. DH is no help, has not dealt with his issues around his Narcissistic parents, basically says I should stop being self indulgent, dwelling on the past and get a grip.
Sorry this is so long. There really is not anybody else I can talk to.

Lizzie nope nope nope, your brother is still not your job and your mother has no business trying to guilt trip you into getting involved with him. Stay strong!

smiling you can talk to us. I don't think these things ever leave us, in fact I think it can get harder to cope with as you get older.
It sounds like your DH deals with all the stuff by pretending it doesn't exist. I think your way is healthier. You should be able to feel what you feel.
Are there things to arrange regarding your mother's care, practicalities? Do you have a point of contact, GP, or the warden in the sheltered housing maybe, who you could talk to to see what she needs? Don't let yourself be guilt tripped into frequent visits - you're not obliged to put yourself through all that.

Thank you toomuch. I think my mother is OK at the moment but I don’t know anything about her diagnosis or who her doctor is.
The wardens where she lives probably don’t even know I exist as every time I have tried to visit her I have been turned away. Sometimes literally on the doorstep.
It’s not easy to get there as I am ill and unable to drive or use public transport It takes 5 hours to drive there. We also have custody of a DGS with SEN.
God I sound like a pathetic wimp and I’m not really.
My BIL lives near her and she basically thinks the sun shines out of his arse. He told me he is now only prepared to visit her for 10 minutes a week and I must step in. He has financial POA and I’ve asked him if I can be included on that and also want to get a health and welfare one which he can be included on if he wishes.
I know if I just turn up my mother will refuse to have anything to do with me until he is consulted.
He says she is OK and another POA is not necessary. She sold her house and is paying rent where she is. I have no idea how much money she has left. I am not in a position to fund her once it has gone.
I feel that she may be considered to have capacity to grant a power of attorney now but the longer it goes on the less likely it will be. One of daughters and SIL visited her recently. She seemed to know who they were and they had a pleasant visit but then afterwards she complained that a strange man and woman had been in her flat
I was the golden child until my sister was born. I was then totally rejected and frequently threatened with a children’s home, beaten, punched, kicked and verbally abused.. My sister was 11 when my brother was born. She then was rejected but never to my knowledge physically abused. She totally went off the rails in every way imaginable and I looked out for her as much as I could and we always had a good relationship.
When my brother died she resumed her position and shut me out. I honestly don’t think she had any understanding of what she was doing or why. I was never given any explanation for this but just completely stonewalled.
So I have the choice of trying to deal with BIL, who has in the past been verbally abusive to me, or just letting things happen and letting social services get involved when necessary.
I do feel a strong sense of responsibility though and don’t think I can do that. Whatever my mother was, she is now a very old and vulnerable person.
I do understand BIL is grieving and don’t want to put him under any pressure. Ultimately I am trying to take all responsibility for my mother from him.
So a really totally screwed up family. All three siblings were normal people, I think, who never tried to harm anyone. I really wish my siblings had better lives. I did escape and do more with my life than they did.
I have no idea why my parents behaved as they did. Their parents seemed loving and caring, particularly my mother’s, and I remember her being the instigator of most of my abuse. No drugs or alcohol were involved. They had no financial problems. No mental or physical health problems that I am aware of.
I have tried my utmost to be a better parent than they were. Hope my children think I was OK.
Back to my reading. Toxic in laws now. Covering all bases !

smiling, your post deserves a longer answer but just quickly, I would also recommend you Codependency for Dummies if you've not yet read anything about codependency. Your willingness to put your hand up for your mother's care and POA etc sounds exactly like someone who has had to take too much responsibility, too early, and for too long.

Is it me or do Christmases getharder as you get older? I only realised my mum was abusive and not just mean two Christmases ago.

I look at all my friends who have lost their mums and miss them so much. My mum is still going strong.

MIL recently stopped short of telling me I deserved it but can’t accept being beaten and verbally attacked daily was abuse.

No one understands it as mums should unconditionally love their kids. So therefore itcouldnt be abuse.

Time of year and mil comments really bringing all pain back into the current time. God this is a gift that never stops giving. If I beat my dd and told her she was fat and ugly and no one could love her daily it wouldn’t be good enough for my dd.

But I deserved it.

MIL and all adults of the generation above me I don’t / can’t have relationships with. I have pushed mil away more and more as I can’t step up to Un-achiiveable bars. I can’t face talking her since this.

Thank you, toomuch, you're right. My mum is very good at making me feel guilty by telling me just how much he's missing me. I'm sure he is, but I can't cope with him eulogising about our abusive father.

toomuch thank you. Just downloaded it to my kindle. Really wish I had read these books a very long time ago.

Blue I think sometimes with the older generation of mothers, when you try to talk about the abuse it triggers a generational solidarity, like they feel attacked personally by any younger person reflecting on their upbringing and judging it to have been bad. I sometimes think it's that, and I sometimes think it's just that we all got into relationships with people who are kind of similar to us so our in-laws are similar to our parents. Like with my DH, my MIL is actually OK, she's the enabler, but FIL is a bit of a nutter, and DH's family dynamics are like mine but with the sound turned down. I wonder if it is similar with your DH and MIL? It makes it doubly hard when you're trying to get your head around the abuse because none of these people want to acknowledge that children can be emotionally abused, and also you look about you and think "could lightning really strike twice in the same place like this?"
Is your MIL with you for Christmas?

smiling I wanted to say you're not a wimp. You sound really nice. Are your family better at shoving down their emotions? It doesn't seem to have made them nicer people.
The situation with your BIL is difficult. You'll only be able to get a welfare POA if your mother agrees to it, and you won't know her financial situation unless she or your BIL want to share it... you're potentially walking into a situation where you assume all the responsibility with none of the control. Also your BIL thinks the sun shines out of your mum's, you know, but he can only visit for 10 mins a week? This seems to be a recurring theme on Stately Homes, where these perfect families we're excluded from in reality can't tolerate each other for very long (and usually need the truth teller/scapegoat to blame everything on or to manage everyone else's feelings). In contrast to the kind of people like yourself who actually step up when a family member needs help, as with your grandchild.

I'd agree about generational loyalty, my DM was initially quite dismissive of some of the abuse DW suffered - and it only flipped when she found out more detail about the religious aspect and it took DW's experience far enough away from her justifiable norm that it clicked.

toomuch thank you so much again.
After feeling very positive last night I am back to feeling very low.
Typically I married a man with parent problems (narcissistic mother and enabler father). Never resolved and I was always very hurt that he did not stand up for me. Now realise he couldn’t
Stupidly tried to talk to him today to be told that the way my parents treated me was my fault as I am impossible to live with. Examples being that after leaving home at 17 I went straight into a verbally and physically abusive relationship. He knew this person and says that he did not have any problems with anyone else and nor did his parents. Strangely my SIL was treated exactly the same way.
And he is not going to help or support me because I set out to destroy his family. His father cut him out of his will after I was not prepared to give him as much money as he wanted when I was buying my kids’ clothes from charity shops.
I know I have to deal with this myself and will do. Just finding it so hard to get my act together. Just staying alone in one room. Can’t go anywhere alone. Total shit but it’s my shit and I must deal with it. You help more than I can say.

Been in and out of this thread lately, trying to deal with the inevitable shit from telling my m I no longer want to have anything to do with her.
Not much good with advice at the moment but and for everyone.
Met with my Dad and he asked me to tell her what the problems were and give her a chance to put things right. He said he couldn’t believe that she would ever have meant to hurt me. I have since found out about secondary gaslighting.
So I emailed her the issues and met with her today to discuss them. I was sort of hoping she would at least apologise for the way she had made me feel and that I was wrong about her. It was all either my fault because I’d got it all wrong or she changed the subject or she denied it. Not one apology for anything she had done. I can’t say I’m surprised and it’s what I expected really. I didn’t back down though like I would have done in the past and I left saying that we weren’t going to resolve anything and I needed some time to think. So I think that’s it now really, the thought of life without her is a relief. I can walk away and tell my dad that I tried. Not sure what he’ll do but that’s up to him.
I’m sad about it but I know I’ll get over it. I can concentrate on healing now. I’m finally free of her.

SleepyHay no advice from me I’m afraid but sounds like you are doing the right thing.
Denial or blaming the victim seems to be a usual tactic. I really do wonder how so many parents can feel justified in treating their children the way they do. It seems like they see them as possessions rather than people in their own right.
I’m glad you had the courage to speak to your mother. I was too afraid to and really regret that now. It’s much harder to make a resolution alone.