"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi everyone

A bit of a strange thing has happened, it's weirded me out. Last year my cousin got married, I wasn't invited but my parents were. It was no big deal as we're not close but on the run up and ever since my M has periodically gone on about how I was the only person not invited. After about a year of listening to my M tell me this but not answering when I asked if she knew why, I approached my cousin very gently to ask her. I explained that I was seeking therapy and bit by bit working through things that have bothered me through the years. She very kindly explained that it was simply down to numbers. I didn't mention my M to her or anything she'd said, they're not close either, but as it happened throughout the conversation it also transpired that she didn't have the huge wedding my M made it out to be and that they had to not invite other people too, it wasn't just me. I felt awfully ashamed that my M had engineered me to feel as bad as I did and so much so that I put my cousin in a position by approaching her to ask, not that I could tell her this, I just had to take the cringe on the chin.

My cousin also told me back then that she was starting to have a yearly family event, BBQ or meal, and she'd invite me to the next one, which she did but I can't go as it's Bank holiday weekend and we've made plans. We've not had any other further contact, no conversation or anything. The weird bit is, she didn't directly ask me if I can attend her event, she invited me through a FB page she'd set up, I got the invite when I was at work so couldn't reply right away but by the time I'd got home she'd asked my dad (on the actual page not in private) if he knew whether I was coming or not as I 'hadn't let her know' .

So, when I next saw my M she knew all about me being invited and it was like a switch had been flicked. Up until then when she mentioned my cousin (she always brought her up, I never did) she'd been very mysterious and coy but last week she bitched and bitched about her, doing impressions of her, telling tales and gossiping. My cousin isn't the most likeable person, she's always been pretty braggy and materialistic and I know she can be like that as I've heard her myself but my M was proper ramping it up and making out that being in her company sound unbearable. I don't have intentions of being best friends with my cousin but it would be nice if I could make my own mind up whether I actually like her or not without being so forceably influenced but I'm thinking that my M switched because she's worried I'll become friendly with my cousin and this somehow concerns her and it's freaked me out.

Nora - Your M is driving a wedge between you and your cousin. Before she didn't really need to do much to keep you all apart because there wasn't much of a relationship to divide, but now she has to ramp it up due to this BBQ invitation. If she's saying crap to you about her, just know she is saying crap to her about you.

I have found there is no winning this. It's best to go NC with everyone involved, which is hard because these other people only know what they are told, a lot of it not true, but it is near impossible to stop the existing smear campaign and win them over. We can tell these other people our Ms are personality disordered until we are blue in the face, but rarely does anyone believe that because our Ms are so charismatic, influential and persuasive liars. Just save yourself.

pulling would residential care or sheltered housing be an option for your nan? I'm guessing she won't want to rock the boat with your mother though, is that right?

I feel you're right Bubbling , thank you for putting it in context for me. I think a strange part was that whilst my M was telling me all that stuff it was the happiest I'd seen her in ages and it actually felt good to have her smiling and looking at me while talking to me, something she rarely does.

too I'm not sure the situation financially for her because she is quite well off. My Mum would go crazy if Nan chose to move out. She couldn't play the martyr anymore.

Interestingly enough Nan is talking about disinheriting Voldemort and leaving everything to my 2 kids instead. Just shows how much she is fed up with it. I've told her she should go on a world cruise and blow the lot 😂

I second the world cruise idea

God I'm waiting to find out if my offer has been accepted on a house I offered on over the weekend. Please keep your fingers crossed for me. I'm beginning to break.

Good luck pullingmyhairout!

Thanks lenl - they asked for full and final. I have offered way more than it's on at but I love it. It has to be mine 😂

Oh well. Hopefully will know in a couple of hours.

Hi everyone
Thanks got the new thread
Am working through Richard Grannon material, really spot on, thanks to whoever pointed to it on other threads

About the questions on previous thread, I'm off ADs but also not coping well.. My instinct is to not take them but all healthcare professionals seem quite scornful of this view, and seem to take it to mean I won't help myself, which isn't why I don't like them.

And I have a MH appointment soon. Considering taking Pete Walkers book to wave at them, but if they don't look at trauma is there any point?

Am looking for private therapy, so far no-one available at the right time of day.

DM seems to be NC with me since late June, not heard a peep since I questioned her and step dad spending her entire inheritance on what amounts to a toy.. Can't say my life is worse for the silence..

Hi tiggers
Why don't you like ADs? Could they be useful if you're not coping? I understand though I think, I always wanted off.

pulling did you hear back?!

Could do with some perspective on my relationship with my DF and am hoping wise MNers can help. Apologies: this might be a bit lengthy! Am trying to avoid dripfeeding but include all the salient bits. DF has always been quite aggressive, irritable and controlling - he was very 'absent' during my childhood, only very rarely playing with me and my siblings, and my DM did all the cooking, cleaning etc when we were growing up. Many of my friends were terrified of his outbursts, which might be about things like perceived excessive noise if I had someone round to play, or on one memorable occasion, a friend standing on the 'wrong' bit of the car's interior carpet as he dropped her back home. Would cause 'damage', apparently. On other occasions however, he could be genial and friendly, so I never knew what I was getting, iyswim. I was always really anxious as a child and desperate to avoid any embarrassment so would try and engineer him out of situations (invite friends when he was at work, or make excuses for his behaviour "oh, he's tired / not well.")
Our relationship has improved since I became an adult and I'm more able to challenge him, but have shied away from doing so as much as I should have. Partially this is to protect DM who has mh issues and whom I worry would be really affected by any falling out between the two of us. However following an event in which he was constantly criticising and belittling me, DM and my DC, whilst being sweetness and light with some family friends, I broke down and ended up in tears in front of everyone, to my shame. He has refused to engage with me since this time. I am clear that his behaviour wasn't acceptable but do feel guilty that I haven't been able to deal with it rationally, probably because I've bottled it up for so long. Not sure where to go from here, or what I'm asking.

Lenl I have a strong aversion to ADs
There IS a reason for this - I was raised by DM who spent my entire childhood depressed and on ADs - and using that as an excuse for her (narc) behaviours, victim/martyr type.. they didn't seem to make her better, not one bit..
The GP and other professionals seem to see my reluctance to take them as me refusing to accept help, but in mind I almost physically can't, I associate them so strongly with everything that happened back then.
Plus they make me nauseous, I know that might reduce over time..
And plus I hate taking anything medication/chemical related of any kind - this includes processed foods, and I'm even moving towards a vegan type diet, trying to 'fix' myself with diet and exercise..

I get so far and it's like my brain rebels - half a week of high energy then I plunge into a low mood, which then turns to anxiety and I climb out of it.
I think half a pint of cider caused that to happen at the weekend.
Cardio seems to be the best 'drug' - an hour on my treadmill, but sometimes in a low mood I can't bring myself to do that when I need it most.

It's weird, I would say the things that were a result of my upbringing seem, in the last 3-5 years, to have become more like some sort of condition/disorder.. it's a bit scary. Now, even when my parents seem to be completely ignoring/rejecting me (I'm mid-30s) it's I'm broken and when I try to do self-care, heal myself something in me sabotages that within days. I'm completely alone in the world, and know I need to look after myself but am really struggling.

I'm rambling now, and maybe not talking much/any sense.

I have found so much help on this thread over many years and would like to ask for your comments on my behaviour and the reasons for it. It might seem a bizarre request. I know a lot of you have read books and been in therapy so might provide some insight. My abusers have now all died but I still cannot stop constantly going over my past. I have had depression for over 20 years, and have kept it hidden from all of my family and only once spoke to a GP with disastrous results.

The behaviour is this. I have always hidden away when people get close to me. As a child , from about 9, I would take myself off to my bedroom very early in the evening. At primary and senior school I would become friends with a group and then after a year find an excuse to distance myself. When I married, I moved into my DH town and although his friends tried with me, I distanced myself. This carried on when I moved to my current home, making friend on school run then , dropping them. Same with clubs I joined, bowls, keep fit and a craft club then after a year just stopping.

I speak to no-one except my husband and occasionally my children when they visit or via email and text. Now that I am not constantly running here there and everywhere after others, find I am totally isolating myself. I force myself to go to the shops on a bus even though I don't need to buy anything. I sit in coffee shops or benches for hours at a time daydreaming and re-inventing my life.

Sorry this is so long.

Pansy I can relate to what you are saying, this kind of social avoidance pattern, sabotaging relationships that could be positive for no apparent reason, just distancing from people . Assuming it's all connected to our childhoods. Hoping someone on here can link to or explain the relevant bit of psychology.

Something about making your life as small and un-connected as possible, as to be barely lived?

And/or some kind of script that says you are not allowed to do something - be seen, heard, take up space.. and that others are unsafe, the cause of pain, you are safer on your own?

Hi pansy I can relate with some of what you are saying. As others have said it will relate to something you learnt as a child. For me the retreating to the bedroom was about feeling safe. This was something I saw my m do so 'learnt' it as a coping strategy. Also something else I learnt that I shouldn't have emotions as my position was too support others through theirs and if I was emotional I would be rejected, so the bedroom was a place I learnt was safe both to be emotional but to also be safe from potential rejection.

I have learnt through therapy that I have a massive fear of being alone/ lonely so will always be the provider emotionally and physically in any relationship, because of the fear of rejection if I need something emotionally from another. This is quite tiring and unequal in relationships, now I recognise I have been stopping relationships developing by withdrawing when the time comes to invest some trust emotionally in others.

Maybe think about therapy now? I don't think it makes much difference if your parents are alive or not, the hurt is still there, unresolved for you, don't carry it for the rest of your life, it doesn't need to belong to you.

lenl it has been accepted and the vendors have found one with no chain 😁

Please keep your fingers crossed that the job move and house move go smoothly now.

Nan called me yesterday. Apparently Voldemorts spies have reported to her that the house has sold. Poor Nan. She is in an awful situation, and I can't help her!

bella woud I be right in thinking that your issue right now is that you're not happy with how you reacted (crying, feeling very upset) when your father verbally attacked you at this event?

First of all I would say that IMO there's nothing irrational about being upset when your father verbally attacks you, particularly when it's so obvious that it's so directed at you and your family, not just "he's in a bad mood" or any of the explanations for his mood that you might have used or heard over the years. You're perfectly justified in feeling upset.
I don't know if you relate to this but I used to get annoyed with myself as an adult dealing with my mother if I felt like I was judging her "unfairly" - where "fair" to me would have meant totally believing in any good behaviour, interpreting all her current actions as though she'd always been a nice person, and constantly giving her the benefit of the doubt. I felt like if I interpreted (say) a backhanded compliment as being nasty, then I was "punishing her for past mistakes". I don't feel like that now, now I feel like I had every right to be wary of her.

I'm guessing you are probably also not happy that you cried in front of him. Do you know why you don't want to cry? Do you try to avoid showing your vulnerability to him - which would totally make sense to me? Do you also perhaps feel obliged to hide your feelings in order not to make him more angry - is that something that your mother would have encouraged in the past?

It sounds a bit like you feel that you're responsible for what happened because of you breaking down in tears. You're not. Your father chose to verbally abuse you. You can't choose your feelings, and while it might sometimes be possible to choose your reactions, controlling your reaction when you are being attacked by someone who ruled your childhood with this bullying bullshit would be very, very hard. It almost sounds like you were having an emotional flashback.

Bella
I have experienced very similar. You showed an appropriate response to how you were being treated, it would have highlighted his bad behaviour to everyone (good).
He's gone quiet on you ... GOOD. Let him stew. It took 19 months to get an acknowledgement from my DF that he had treated me poorly. Too late. I have grieved for the relationship I thought I had I thought he cared he doesn't.
It's perfectly natural to question yourself/your response/ your reading of the situation but in time hopefully you will torture yourself less 💐

I've not posted before but was just reading and something strung a chord so just want to reply. My mum has NPD. Might post about it in due course.

pansy I do a similar thing with friendships. At a certain stage I convince myself that they don't like me, and I start to feel anxious and worried about whether they like me or not. Do you do something similar? Think you need to really observe your emotions and thought process when you pull away from someone. There may be a pattern.

DM used to tell me I was horrible and no one would like me so that's probably where it comes from for me. Think it only hits at a certain stage in the friendship once we are getting past polite conversations. Hope that helps

Fc301 they are showing very little respect to you. That would make me feel frustrated. How about acknowledging/ commenting as it happens?

Just off the phone from a conversation with DM. The day before leaving after a week at theirs' she went through a long list of negative behaviour that my DC did., told me I was not a good mum. My little one cried as Dm told her she will not come back. DS said he does not want to talk to them anymore. DM tells me she does not remember exactly what she said. That's a classic, and I knew that is what she would say. She said she was far too tired because she had several lots of grandchildren one lot after the others. She was indeed tired. She was also stressed and the children wound up as each door slammed would cause my dad to shout instantly at the top of his voice. I felt dragged back into the old childhood dynamics where we were all walking on eggshells all the time. My children are not used to it and 'trigger' him all the time. I tend to nag them more and in return they become even more boisterous.
I am tired of mum's nastiness, which always comes when I least expect it.

Voldemort and her enabler want to know how my son did in his exams tomorrow. He wants to tell them in person. Do I let him go?

pullingmyhairout1 you can let him go but a debrief on their response might be necessary

I think I'll know how they respond the second he walks through the door. I don't really want him subjected to it tbh.