"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Chest

Sorry to read that yet again the narcissists in your family are rising up against you as their chosen scapegoat.

Re your comment:-
The next visit will be just before Christmas from my M and F, and will be extremely short and on their terms not mine. More punishment I suppose.

I would cancel their visit to you. This should not take place in any event given their behaviours and denials. I would not call your F nice either; he is really her hatchet man here who cannot be at all relied upon either. He has more than once thrown you under the metaphorical bus.

Would you at all consider pressing charges against abusive sibling?.

Funerals are public occasions but given the fact that the bereaved grandparent is also a narcissist, is it wise to at all enter into that lions den?. I would consider paying your respects at the church the day after the funeral service.

First time on this thread though have been on here for nearly five years and have had support.

Feeling very low/hollow today. DM has what I imagine low self esteem and mental health issues as long as I can remember. All I have grown up with is criticism and have no self confidence as a result. Today I feel guilty as I haven't been able to face her in over a month. Literally cannot take her mocking and spiteful comments. Have made a success of my life academically / career wise and married with Dc but she never acknowledges anything good about me.

It simmered under the surface for years. She doesn't work and spends the day watching old movies in her nightwear yet I work a full week, sometimes six days a week and am expected to visit twice a week (hour round trip after work with DC) that would be fine except to be told I look a mess/ can't pronounce words/ what am I wearing. I usually clean etc for her but stopped when I was in late pregnancy and she was awful to me. So I just stopped.

She ruined my wedding, took a 'fall' while on honeymoon so wasn't able to ask about it. Needed to be rushed into a&e during my hen party (nothing wrong - just an unexplained pain ??)

Screamed at me when wedding album came out that my uncle wasn't in the formal family photo (ie parents and siblings) and said dh sister shouldn't have been in it. I could go on and on.

She was jealous of me having a c section - why on earth I don't know. Mocking I was too posh to push. I had low placenta and genuine reasons.

I just suddenly stopped visiting and haven't heard from her since. Or my father. So sad about it all. I hope it is OK to post.

Chest I wonder if you're being set up for a double bind here. If you attend the funeral with your DC they can say you're being inconsiderate, disrespecting your deceased GP's wishes etc. But if you don't go, the scrip will be that you chose to stay away deliberately to disrespect your GP and punish your family.

I think Attila's idea of paying your respects at the church is a good one, or at the graveside after the funeral. You could send flowers too, sorry this might be me overexplaining but Interflora or a local florist will be able to deliver them for the funeral, you just need to give them the time and venue.

Littlelamb

Totally OK to post

I'm sorry to hear what you've gone through with your mother. It does sound like she has some mental health issues, and with the fragile self esteem coupled with the self-created drama every time something good happens to you, I wonder if this description of covert narcissist will ring any bells for you?

Can I ask you feel about it all? You said you felt guilty about not seeing her. Reading it from the outside, I wish I had a magic wand I could wave and make you feel relieved. You've carried the burden of managing your mother's emotions for so long, I think you must be totally sick of it.

You said you feel sad as well - can I ask are you disappointed that your parents haven't been in touch? I don't know if you relate to this but I also spent a long time swallowing my feelings down and managing my mother, and it amazed me when I was no longer able to put so much effort into that (when I had kids, so when I was around my mother my attention wasn't 100% on her) her behaviour went downhill really fast. I think that if you've been dealing with a mentally ill parent for a long time the efforts you make become almost automatic and it can come as a shock to see what happens when you withdraw that effort.

Have you thought what you want to do?

Thank You for listening too
I am not sure what category she is but it is like she feeds off attention and drama. She gets a lot of attention - more than most - but will frequently complain of being lonely and how selfish I am. It is like I am the primary carer.

For now, I am going to do nothing. They are travelling cross country to visit my brother next week but never contact me. I am OK with that.

Littlelambpeep stopping visits is probably the best thing you could ever have done. Once you don't have toxic people in your life, you will be amazed at your new found peace. You just have to grieve the lovely mother that you never had and never will have.

it is like she feeds off attention and drama

Certainly would fit with NPD, littlelamb... not that it really matters, whatever the flavour of bad behaviour it's certainly not acceptable. I think doing nothing is a good policy.

Hey, did anyone see this in the Guardian?

Dhs horrible mother randomly text us last week despite no contact and her visiting our home town twice in ththe past two months not asking to see her grandsons with "what would they like for xmas?" How about piss off

Thanks for the responses. Feeling very very low and anxious today. Very hurt and upset I have heard nothing from any of my family in nearly two months now. Missed my childs birthday and yet I cannot face contact despite feeling hurt there is none. Probably doesn't make sense. Going get the DC in bed, try and get some housework done and have an early night.

How about piss off

That made me laugh, sorry! Reminds me of someone on here who coined the new phrase "fuck off is a complete sentence"

I assume the text came to you as well? I don't know what it is about willies that makes them such a hindrance in present-handling...

Lamb it makes sense - you want a loving relationship with your family. You don't want to be treated like crap, and you don't want to be ignored. That these appear to be the two choices on offer has nothing to do with you as a person, although it may not feel like that to you.

Hello

May I share my story? I'd appreciate your insight.

I'd always thought my family was more functional than most, as most of the time we do seem to get on well and enjoy each other's company. That's what makes this hard I guess.

My dad has always been an alcoholic and this has led to a level of financial abuse in the family that has been quite severe at times. He had a hard job, a chronic severe health condition, and was quick to anger. We were taught to tiptoe around him as kids so as not to anger him or give him a heart attack ()

DM is chief enabler and manages the family. I was golden child, middle sibling largely overlooked and youngest either scapegoated or parentified so as to maintain a high level of codependency on DM. Big age gap between siblings. Parents worked long hours and I did lots of childcare, chores, cooking etc. I basically feel like I raised youngest sibling really.

I experienced depression in my teens and self harmed. If they knew they ignored it. They also ignored the drinking and the drugs. I thought I was good st hiding it and always met my curfew. But they must have know. They saw my cuts and did nothing, although I think DM got angry at me once and shouted at me for doing it. She also read my diary and didn't like me having privacy.

I did well at school but was withdrawn and had few friends. Teachers raised concerns with parents. I ended up in a very abusive relationship in my late teens that really fucked me up for years.

Basically, they were too busy dealing with their own shit that they were emotionally absent and didn't really parent me.

Anyway, I've done very well for myself and have since produced the only grandchild. Had a HUGE falling out with DM just before I gave birth where she said I was "making it all about me" as I wouldn't give her updates every day about whether I was in labour or not. I sent her a very long email calling her out for lots of things, and the flying monkeys quickly came.

Neither of us really apologised, although she seems to think I have (I was definitely not going to apologise). We made our peace of sorts and things returned to normal.

However, she has often said that she feels like she is walking on eggshells around me, and never feels like she can ring me. I've assured her she can. We've also fallen out in the past about social media use as I think she uses it to keep tabs on us.

We speak on the phone about once a week and we see her about every other week.

DF is largely passive in this as he's too busy drinking himself to sleep. He's very ill and takes ZERO responsibility for his ill health. I've tried multiple things to help over the years.

Things came to a head recently when it transpired DF had been up to something quite awful. Up to his old financial abuse tricks again. I'm done with him. I can't understand why she stays with him but I think it's because they're codependent.

Anyway, I've barely spoken to them and it's such a relief!! I feel like I'm setting boundaries and give zero fucks about pulling back. I'm happy to maintain a level of contact, but on my terms.

Here's the thing though, I think DM will call me out about it being on my own terms, making it all about me again. Am I wrong for doing this?the scales are falling off but there's still some FOG. I also wonder whether I'm the one being the narc or the bad person for pulling back??

Thanks for reading

Hi nerner
I'm sorry I don't have an answer for you post but after reading;

Here's the thing though, I think DM will call me out about it being on my own terms, making it all about me again. Am I wrong for doing this?the scales are falling off but there's still some FOG. I also wonder whether I'm the one being the narc or the bad person for pulling back??

I'm keen to see the responses coming in as I am at this very same stage of questioning myself. It feels good to be on v little contact although v lonely, but the FOG kicks in and I think maybe I'm keeping a feud going by being distant??

I hope things look up for you OP.

Ner Ner

Your family of origin are highly dysfunctional so failed you badly and still continue to do so. Both parents are culpable here; alcoholics as well make for being really crap as parent figures also. Your mother remains disordered of thinking and did her own lot of damage to you all. You were not parented by either of them at all as you rightly state and you remain not without issues yourself pertaining to their treatment of you. Instead of seeking help for their own myriad of issues they took it all out on you as their children instead. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles and you became their golden child; itself a role not without price.

No you are not a narcissist (besides which you have two qualities such people sadly lack, namely empathy and insight) nor a bad person at all for pulling back from your dysfunctional parents and I think you should do this. You would not have put up with this from a friend, your family of origin are no different.

You need firm and consistently maintained boundaries. There is actually a chapter in "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward on alcoholic parents so that could be worth reading in your case as well. Their relationship is textbook codependency and that also often features in alcoholism. They also get what they want out of their relationship. You did not make them this way either; their own families did that to them.

I would further cut back the calls and visits to them; it does not do you any good at all to be seeing or be around these dysfunctional people. They failed you utterly and need you simply to prop up their own dysfunctional lives.

Do find a therapist to work with and importantly such a person who has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. You may also find contacting Al-anon helpful re your alcoholic dad.

Thank you Atilla for your insightful reply. I think you are right.

I will have a look at the book chapter, thank you for the recommendation.

It's just all so draining!!

Sigh.. it's that time of year when 'family' always seems to be a bigger word than at other times when I can ignore it more..

Just saw DM. I have one DD, nearly 4. And I really feel like I'm twisting DM's arm behind her back to get her to spend time with her, and even then to pay her any actual attention so as to cultivate a relationship. DD doesn't have any other family as I'm a LP her 'DF' has never even wanted to meet her, and my family is all estranged and dysfunctional. So for DD's sake, I try.

DM is happy to chuck money in DD's direction for Christmas and Birthday. Which I really do appreciate, it means I can get DD more things. But she did the same with me when I was little - provided 'stuff' and that was kind of the extent of parenting. I know I shouldn't get frustrated that she is no different as a GP, but money isn't everything. Even if she visits she will sit for an hour and talk about herself - all kinds of mundane stuff in a sort of monologue - while DD is going hyperactive trying to get her attention. She barely seems to notice her, doesn't really talk to her, ask questions, play with her.

One of the issues might be that by the time DD was born, DM had already been through quite a large number of other GC, due to my sister having a few and step-siblings.. but I am DM's eldest child and this is my only one. So I notice. She never takes DD to the park, or for a day trip, or even just has her round the house to spend time together. That would interfere with DM's 'task list' of housework and other chores, which are given more importance.

Have just spent the past hour feeling like I'm trying to force DM to drop by for even 20 minutes and see DD at Christmas. Which should be a treat, a bonding moment, something of value? But it's like she's doing us a begrudging favour, by fitting us into her schedule between waking and going to the pub with stepdad.

I am doing everything I can to make Christmas a happy time for DD. But feeling a bit depressed today. I think if I post this on other boards, I will probably get a bunch of people telling me that GP are entitled to have their own lives etc - but it's not that.

Thank you Go. The ignoring was just so weird. After a message to say she wanted to stay in touch (after I had found her avoiding me in the supermarket earlier and called Mum out on it), to act like I wasn't there.

Still, it has made for complete radio silence since. Bliss. And no comments from the letter either...

My sister has dropped the DC's xmas presents in to the kids group I run. But I wasn't expecting it so I haven't got my DN's anything. Although DH and I have spoken and since she has made the effort, we will get the children a token something, although where I deliver it to I have no idea. I have a vague idea of where they have moved to but I don't actually have their address.

I am looking forward to a stress free christmas though. No worrying about the demands for our time that will be made. Even though we had more children, we were always the ones who had to do the visiting. Getting my parents to my house was like pulling teeth. And they really are not welcome at this house.

You're right sparkly - if you post it on AIBU or chat you'll get 200 replies from nice but knackered grandparents projecting their own experiences and defending your mum's right not to childcare. But that's not what you're after, you're trying to get your mum to have a meaningful relationship with your DD.

Attila often says on here that grandparents don't change just because they become grandparents, and I think this is true here. I think some parents do do a better job of being grandparents - the pressure is off and they have more time to appreciate their grandchildren (my MIL is like this) - but unfortunately it seems not to be the case with your mum. I wonder what her own childhood was like and whether she received much affection.

You've every right to feel frustrated about it, even if you did somewhat expect it. It is a shame. One thing to comfort, I hope, is that this matters a lot less to your DD than it does to you. She has a loving and involved parent and that's all she really needs. A supportive extended family would be nice but tbh it probably would make more difference to you than to her.

Hi Sparkly

Your mother was not a good parent to you growing up and she is not going to be the nice grandmotherly figure you seek for your DD either. I would fully concur with all of toomuchtooold's comments to you in her post.

I can myself relate to a lot of your post; and this part particularly resonated:-

"So I notice. She never takes DD to the park, or for a day trip, or even just has her round the house to spend time together. That would interfere with DM's 'task list' of housework and other chores, which are given more importance".

In this respect my mother was and is the self same. I noticed as well and my mother did not go on to change either. Looking back I realise far more that my mother basically trusted me from about the age of 14 or so to get on with it without parental guidance because unlike my brother I was seen as the "capable" one. In her case I think there is a depressive element to all this along with her own childhood issues pertaining to an overall lack of affection from her father in particular. She was also of the been there, done that and do not want to do that again school of parenting. She told me years before I became a parent myself that she would never look after any child I went onto have - and she kept to her word. I have written on MN previously about the lack of interest and overall support in their only grandchild. I can tell you now, its not you its her.

My son is now an adult and the likes of Sitters and a few good friends made and kept in school years helped me an awful lot. I would also concur that it matters a lot less to your DD than to you. Do not keep on trying with your mother for your DDs sake; it will not work and there is infact no good reason to do so. Find decent role models outside the nuclear family, both male and female, for you and your child.

I posted for the first time a few months ago, after remembering certain aspects of abuse which happened to me when I was little. I have always had a bad relationship with my D, he was violent, argumentative, controlling, twist things so that it would look as though he was a good guy, etc etc. After remembering the incident, I decided to go NC, or at least try to. I've always tried to prove that I'm worthy of his attention, even though I can't bear him. He's my dad and I should love him. I wish I had a good dad, someone who loved me for who I am. He's stonewalled me, which is probably a good thing, but I'm not the one who's in the wrong, he should he wanting to make amends, and he doesn't care, he has this power over me to make me feel guilty for not being the dutiful daughter, I'm hearing from my db that he's not heard from me, my d's partner is telling my db to get me in touch with him.

My friend thinks I'm bad for not contacting him, Christmas is a week away, part of me feels I should for the sake of everyone, but my eyes have been opened and my head has cleared, I remember so much of what he did to me, the belittling, the punching, hitting with the buckle of a dog collar, a garden cane, the forcing my head under the water, running a knife down my chest, because I made a noise. I don't want this person in mine or my children's life, he's evil. So why do I feel so guilty?

Thank you, have been mulling over replies here

Attila there may be something in what you said about DM's childhood - from what I understand (she has never really told me directly) her father was a strict disciplinarian, extremely controlling with money, she was the 'good girl' of the family but married very young and probably to get away from home. Married to my biological DF who was a very nasty psychological bully (I have experienced this for myself, though their memories differ vastly) for 12 years. Then yes to the depressive element - though I've grown up angry that she seemed to use 'being depressed' to excuse any/all of her own behaviour, especially towards me. Though these days she only seems to remember being an angel of a DM who doted on her DC which is always hard for me to hear.

After writing all of that, DM finally did agree to look after DD for 2 hours this weekend, but only on her terms - at her house. Other GC (older) were invited. I am unhappy with the way this turned out.. could even write an AIBU about it but don't like that board. The things I feel uneasy about are:

• DM not seeming to have any idea how to get any of the GC to do anything while I was there, screaming/shouting, bellowing at them. I pointed out this made them listen to her less and less and she said they never listen to her. I gave an example of how to speak very quietly and redirect - they cooperated with me immediately.
• DM shouting at DD (who is still 3) in a talking-down-to way - I can't even remember exactly what she said, but it was enough for me to ask her not to talk to DD like that please, as it's unnecessary you can just talk to her nicely and she will usually do things
• When I came back after 2 hours, DD was asleep but DM told me she had had a little fall (this was after I had been very straight that her safety was the most important thing and I needed to trust she would be ok). Next day DD showed me in daylight - large red gash across her back, she somehow fell off a sofa onto a toy. Which could happen anywhere, but rarely does
• When I came back DM informed me that DD had gone to bed with stepdad. I was rather confused, was shown upstairs and she was in the double master bed with stepdad who was also asleep. This made me feel very odd. I saw stepdad drink several beers before I left and suspect he had more after, so for a start he was quite possibly drunk. And I suppose you can call it instinct, I don't like the idea of a small girl sharing a bed with a much older man. And noone had asked me if that would be ok.

Bloody hell I have written a lot now haven't I. I don't mean to go on. Looking back at what I've written, I think I was wrong to leave DD with DM and wouldn't be comfortable doing it again. And it was all done as though it was a huge inconvenience for her and.. I don't know quite how to describe it, she talks over the GC heads - at them (shouty) rather than with them. No getting alongside them, talking in a quiet voice, getting to know who they are. From my POV it is sad for them and for her. toomuch you are right, DD doesn't seem too notice - she has nothing to compare it to. It is for me looking at the overall impact on her life, of having so little in the way of meaningful close ties (so far).

Going to stop writing! - thanks for reading

How's everyone doing ahead of the holidays? I must admit I find this time of year the hardest. But they are still toxic and despite the temptation and well meaning 'advice' from flying monkeys, I have to keep my distance.

Lou I'm so sorry that you're going through this. Short answer to why you feel so guilty is it's how you've been raised - to put other people's feelings ahead of your own. (I mean, that and also that we're biologically programmed to seek a relationship with our parents, whether they deserve one or not). You still have that feeling of responsibility for others' feelings and this is why when your DB and friends act as flying monkeys, you have an impulse to give in to keep the peace. But the abuse happened to you not them, and you don't have to expose yourself to more head wrecking just for the sake of "a nice Christmas". How nice have those Christmases ever really been, anyway? I would imagine you've spent most of the Christmases with your father, walking on eggshells trying to keep him in a good mood. Let him be the one to live with the shitty feelings for once. He caused them.

sparkly I hope that your experience with your mother can go some way to putting your mind at rest about needing to cultivate a relationship with your mother in order to give your DD more connections. Some connections you're better off without. I noticed also that she's not got any more patience with your DNs than your DD - so it's not a favouritism thing, which is nice to know.
I don't know. I think if I were you I would try to accept the status quo. You have an on-paper OK relationship with your mother, you're on speaking terms, she gets nice presents for your DD at birthday and Christmas - it's not a very deep relationship maybe, but your experience with leaving your DD with her suggests to me that maybe your mum knows she's not great with kids and a shallow relationship might actually be ideal.

@TheDistantSky struggling, I saw my m yesterday and left really angry. I laid in bed last night trying to word all what I wanted to say, but then being annoyed that she had got to me and also realising it it pointless to try and say something.

Toomuch love what you said 'Let him be the one to live with the shitty feelings for once. He caused them.' Will be thinking more on that one.

Newsparkly so many red flags there! Sorry it's so tough. Sounds like betterment without but I know how painful that is in reality.

lou I find it helpful to unpick the feelings that I call 'guilt'. Guilt is when you've done something wrong and feel bad and remorseful. Sometimes when I say guilty I then realise it's actually lots of other feelings, fear and resentment and anger and sadness and all sorts.