"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

toomuch I do wish I'd gone straight to NC ages ago without all the worrying about what to do/how to make it ok. I think if I'd realised sooner that she really is a narc, and won't change, rather than just having a 'problem' I thought I could sort out, I would have bailed out years ago.

Reckless I'm sorry you're going through this. I don't have any good advice - other than that if 20 sessions with a counsellor hasn't started to help, maybe you need a different counsellor? Would that be a possibility?

Reckless I'm sorry to hear how bad it is for you. In addition to the other suggestions, have you thought about joining a 12-step programme of some kind, for your specific addiction?

Hello - long-term lurker here.

I'm just coming to terms with the fact that I am the 'family shame' - not just of my nuclear family but the whole extended family

NMother and N-GC Sister.

I'm struggling with the enormity of it all and my Dad's death.

I went NC with the whole lot of them earlier this year... and now I have no-one, literally the teenage cry of "nobody loves me and I've got no friends" which is obvs pathetic.

After years of fulfilling the prophesy (dropping out of uni courses, failed relationships) and struggling with my mental health I built a career which was hard but I've maintained for over three years - not a great brag I know, but for me...

The only reason I leave the house is for work.

Today I was made redundant, last day 30th June.

I don't see how I'm going to get through this.

Hi famsham Well I'm proud of you for going NC, it's not as easy as it sounds. I'm sorry to hear about your job though. What's the job situation like where you live, do you think you'll be able to pick one up easily enough?

Also, I don't know if this will suit you or not but I have a workmate, single woman mid 40's, who only left the house to come to work and after countless failed clubs and hobbies actually got herself a second job in a shop, just on Saturday mornings, she's loving it. Another workmate, single divorced bloke prone to staying in getting pissed, he got a second job in a popular 24/7 supermarket three evening a week. Both are meeting new people and they're getting paid to do it. It's raised their self esteem no end because the beauty is, if they're unhappy in any way they know they can just walk away as they still have their main job. Seriously, after what they've been saying if I ever find myself single again I'll be looking for a second job too.

I hope that's not insensitive timing given you've been served notice on your main job. Xx

Toomuch I don't feel the need to say anything to my M. I probably would have done if I'd not have been reading here though because you're right, it would feel like the done thing, the right thing to do, but I know now that would only apply in a normal family. I can see it.

Thing with mine too is, she's obviously pissed at me but she doesn't care how that makes me feel. I occasionally get pissed off about crappy stuff and when I do if I think that I've affected/upset other people I can't wait to apologise and explain myself. Same goes for pretty much everyone else I know, even at work people apologise if they came across moody the day before but it was because of X, Y or Z. My M has been giving me the cold shoulder for 4 weeks now, she's had plenty of time and opportunity to contact me but hasn't bothered. I could be sat here crying my heart out for all she knows. I know I would be if it wasn't for yous

Thanks Treacle. I appreciate your reply.

I not only went NC with the whole family, I changed my number and decided to only to give it to real friends, my guideline was people who had sent helped me through my Dad's death - that's when I faced up to the fact I had no friends,

they weren't too busy...

they weren't ill...

they didn't have more important things to do...

they weren't bad people even...

they just weren't my friends.

Your friend could be me give or take a few years.

Job market is very poor where I am - I have to travel 60 miles anyway for this one, but if I'm looking for one job, I may as well look for two.

Thanks again.

How attached are you to the area Family? Is this the chance to really move on to whole new pastures?

665TheNeighbourOfTheBeast Well I own my house there and it's the only 'home' I've ever had.

I feel "safe" when I'm inside but am overwhelmed by upkeep sometimes...

Buying it was the only thing I ever did which made my dad outwardly proud so I feel emotionally attached to it.

It's a good investment too (which is why he was proud tbh)

Saying that _ I'd happily rent it out.

It's in the SE so if I moved up North, depending on area, I could use the income to pay rent on a studio and put some in a fund for house repairs etc.

I'm not averse to tearing it all up - let's face it I've got nothing to stay for.

I've always wanted to live abroad for no good reason really, I never travelled or anything, I always knew backpacking wasn't for me.

But I've no degree or second language so... and maybe the problem isn't location, it's me, isn't it?

I don't think you are the origin of the problem, but if you have spent a lifetime trying to please the unpleasable, then I'm pretty sure you have never really looked at what makes you happy.
I guess I'm just suggesting that you don't limit yourself to trying to press 'restart from today' on you life.
Years ago I got made redundant, I was devastated at the time, but it allowed / pushed me to make choices that I couldn't have made otherwise. I am very sorry it's happened to you. But clearly you are strong and able to make hard choices, have confidence in that. In yourself, not in the " Thats not for you, You can't do that" whispers that don't belong to you.

By "restart from today" I meant get back into the position you were in immediately before you were made redundant..

665TheNeighbourOfTheBeast Thank you.

spent a lifetime trying to please the unpleasable - yes, why has it taken me this long to realise they would never be pleased - funnily enough, I only told them last year that I had a job - I really thought they would be impressed (?) they didn't even acknowledge it.

I'm suddenly completely exhausted but will have a think about this tomorrow.

Thanks again.

I'm coming to terms with the fact that my childhood was not very good. My parents are both dead now, I think my dad was an enabler and my mum was narcissistic. I'm the scapegoat and my sister the golden child.

I have just started seeing a counsellor and from the little I have told her, she thinks that at best I was neglected emotionally and at worst abused.

I'm struggling to come to terms with it, I always knew that I wasn't loved but abused seems so extreme.

My parents are dead, I'm never going to get any answers. Is counselling going to help? It's not going to change my past or give me ' closure' at the minute, it's just making me feel dreadful.

Hi famsham. I'm with the idea of moving - or renting, sounds a good idea given that prices in the SE continue to rise. We used to live in the SE. I come from the Midlands and now we live ....elsewhere, rurally.

To be honest I never got used to living in the SE [ *apologies to posters who live there**] because I personally ,as an unconfident but sociable person, found that it's not an easy place to make friends ? In t'Midlands, people will talk - and over here they do as well. So I wasn't used to the [guardedness?] .It can't help that you live so far from work. 60 miles ? Gordon Bennett.

I don't make 'close' friends easily. Too picky. But then I was bought up as the Lost Child so I'm happy in my own company as well. People to chat to are friends as well, famsham, and have fewer strings attached ?

One 'girl' I saw recently told me that she'd been working as a university cleaner for the past 6 months. After managing a couple of shops. She has a degree. I haven't seen her so happy for years. No responsibility, a friendly team, enough hours to get by. How much money do you actually need to get by ?

PS I have 3 jobs, ta daa ! Used to have a career that was bloody stressful. Now one of the WASPI generation of women, getting by. The most recent on and off job is in a factory. If I was younger and not so knobbly etc it would be ideal. Go in, do the business, have a chat when possible, feel sorry for the grumpy stressed managers, go home and collect the money. First job I've never 'taken home'

Good luck. Keep us posted ?

darumafan I'm so sorry to hear that you're struggling.

TBH, it's hard to say but I doubt that you would have had any answers/apologies if they were alive.

Maybe the counselling will help you understand how that abuse affected you and the effects of you emotional, mental and physical health and behaviour patterns now?

I'm no-one to talk though and I'm sure many more experienced and much wiser posters will be along to help soon.

Take care.

Makealist1 Thank you for your kind and helpful response.

I've invested so much into this job, I mean so much - to be honest, what with the train fares, unpaid overtime etc - I've pretty much just been breaking even each month.

But, but job was the ONE thing that I had which was 'proof' of my worth.

I'm scared...

Hi family,

re your comment:-
"I've invested so much into this job, I mean so much - to be honest, what with the train fares, unpaid overtime etc - I've pretty much just been breaking even each month".

Individuals, businesses and governments fall into the sunk cost trap when they base their decisions on past behavior and a desire to not waste the time or money they have already spent, instead of cutting their losses and making the decision that would give them the best outcome going forward. People are reluctant to admit, even to themselves, that they have wasted resources on a past decision. Changing directions is viewed, perhaps only subconsciously, as admitting failure. As a result, people tend to stay the course or even invest additional resources in a bad decision in a futile attempt to make their initial decision seem worthwhile.

The sunken costs fallacy does not just apply to relationships and the above is another example of sunk costs. Do not get bogged down in sunk costs. If you have been doing unpaid overtime and have been breaking even every month then this is not the right job for you either.

Thank you AttilaTheMeerkat

I guess for me it was more than £££ - it was about 'status' for want of a better word.

I was on benefits before this job and was SO lucky to get it, I'm pretty sure I won't be that lucky again.

I can't go back to benefits - especially as it's got so much worse in the past few years - my Dad helped me the last time, he's not here now either.

I'm so sorry, I'm struggling this morning, have told work my train is late (which it is tbf) but am actually sobbing at a station.

Dear family
If you haven't already rang in sick, do it tomorrow. If you're in a state they won't be surprised. Book an emergency appointment with your doctor. The surgery has to give you one. Even if it means sitting and waiting until the end of the shift. Take no b*t from receptionists. It's not their call. Tell the doctor you want to sign off with stress. Don't hide things. Antidepressants do work although they need a while to kick in . They can help you cope. Firms have to make allowances - and they can't give you a bad reference.

I was a Social Worker. Something happened and I broke down at work. I now realise that this was partly due to an emotional flashback - I felt massively betrayed by my managers, who just want rid if you're not being effective [ coworkers were superb]. I went to my GP and I never went back to the office. One of the best things I ever did. Fuck the status. I never had the self esteem then that I do now. I couldn't get the head space at the time to realise that your worth isn't down to your 'role' in life. A friend of mine said once that it didn't actually matter that she couldn't afford to actually become a magistrate . The fact that she'd been accepted for training was enough. You've earned that tee shirt. Who's looking at it anyway ??

Hi! So I'm recovering from recent emergency surgery and something's been rolling round my head. My therapist, who is slowly making me realise that I did nothing to influence my childhood and that the shame I feel is not of my making.

There was a massive row the day after my operation where I was threatened with being disowned (not that being part of this fucked up family offers anything), and with ostracising from the family will. I also realised, rather admitted t myself, my golden child brother is just as toxic and abusive as my mother.

My therapist keeps asking where is my pain, where is my hurt. I'm struggling to express, I tie my pain up inside music, I vaguely mentioned this and she wants me to print some song lyrics and song names. But, while I lie here, with one of my EA playlists going and tears rolling down my face, even thinking of sharing any of this leaves me aghast and feels alien. It's been my sole "out" for 30 years. See lyrics to Darren Hayes' Darkness for eg.

Just wanted to share, I hope everyone is well and look forward to getting back into the swing of things in about a month. Do take care and be kind to yourselves x.

Can't do this, really can't. I feel such a fraud. Despite all my posts, all the pain, I don't think I'm strong enough. So many nights full of raw emotion and tears, maybe I should just give in, accept that I must have caused at least some of the pain...

God, emotions all over the place, I know I need to stay NC with my mother. Enabling father is a bit trickier, he's just weak and sees brother as golden child.

I guess I knew something like this was going to happen at some point, it's just destroying me emotionally. My mind keeps going back to something
, and makes me realise just how important this thread is - "Only people who have been through a dysfunctional family structure have any idea of the physical and emotional pains that weigh us down every step of our lives".

makealist1 - Thanks so much you were right but I did go in.

I spoke to my lovely and brilliant Union rep - I wasn't really functioning well and I was exhausted so went home at lunch time.

I worked a lot last night from home and can do more tonight so no harm done.

I just want to hold my head up high for the rest of the month and leave on a good note - they may put in a good word for me elsewhere.

Thanks though, I shouldn't have gone in, I did need today as a 'mental health' day.

SimplySte I'm so sorry you're in turmoil - I'm thinking of you.

Hi Ste Do you think you might be wavering because your therapist has asked you to show her your pain?

I'm just thinking that maybe the thought of sharing something so private and personal might have you hovering over your flight response.

Hadn't thought of it like that Treacle, you raise a good point. Being low following surgery helps none either.

I've been feeling pretty anxious today. It's only Tuesday and I'm already getting worked up about seeing my M on Friday. I think it's because I'm seeing Friday as make or break so I'm having an attack of the fear of the unknowns.

I've mentioned about how she's been treating me the past few visits but the more I think about it the more horrible it is. I've told some trusted people (friends and colleagues) about it and they're horrified. I think I was expecting at least someone to say that I must be imagining it or that I was being too sensitive or offering that my M could have problems of her own and I'm at fault for not asking her what's the matter but I got none of that, they were all totally gobsmacked that a mother could treat her child like that.

So, back to the make or break. I can't handle, and I shouldn't have to handle, being given the silent treatment, not looking at me, the one word answers, the sneers and the snappy 'don't knows' and 'can't remembers' when I even ask innocuous things. Last week my M 'couldn't remember' when I mentioned how when I was little I had to have lots of tests because school thought I had hearing problems (it was relevant because my son thought he had blocked ears but it turned out to be sinus trouble). Anyway, I can't keep putting myself through it, so if she does it again this week I'll be leaving her to it. I don't have good esteem anyway but if I don't I'll end up hating myself.

I need some advice though, I don't know what to do for the best. Do I just up and leave after like 5 minutes if it's clear she's being a misery? Or do I say something like 'I'm not sitting here to be ignored'? Or do I just calmly see it through to the end of the meeting and just not turn up next week? I'm favouring the latter, partly because I'm chicken and hate drama, partly because I'll be so upset but I won't want her to see. But also, this is hard to admit, part of me needs to know one final time how little she thinks of me and to be left without any doubts because once I make my mind up I don't want to be going back.